Inventions

> > Brian (and others), I cannot agree with this as the

The Chinese? Paper, ink, the compass, blackpowder, rockets, silk, real
seaworthy ships,
oil-drilling, cast iron, printing...

;-)
Karl Heinz

> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:

1)You can't give them credit for silk. That's caterpillar stuff. They were
just lucky enough to live next to mulberry trees.

2)Paper and ink I'll give them--although ink was
developed by practically every culture on the planet. Even stone age Irishmen
had ink good enough for tattooing.

None of the rest were ever (with the exception of cast iron) exploited. They
sort of put together a few prototypes, said "oh, what an interesting toy" and
got rid of it again. Whereas within 100 years of developing the stern post
rudder, the magnetic compass, and practical firearms the Europeans had
taken 2/3 of the world away from it's original
inhabitants.

However, if you're having this discussion with ink and paper I want to know
how.

> > The Chinese ?

OK, this really was intended as a poke at a statement that seemed to me rather
overblown. IMO, any contest about which nation has produced the most and
greates inventions is a rather moot point. Today's culture, science and
technology is a product of many people in many place and times. Claims to
singular greatness in this respect are usually pretty silly.

> > Paper, ink, the compass, blackpowder, rockets, silk,

Wild sillkworms produce a fairly rough silk that is not too attractive as a
fiber. Tame silkworms have been breeded for the quality of their silk. Also,
keeping silkworms and unrolling the fibers from their cocoons takes a fair
degree of skill.

> 2)Paper and ink I'll give them--although ink was

That probably was just soot. Am how do you know that stone-age Irishmen
were tattooed?

> None of the rest were ever (with the exception of cast

With all those exceptions (and more to come) this starts to sound like the
piece of dialogue in "The Life of Brian": "What did the Romans ever do for
us ?"

> They sort of put together a few

A common misconception

Gunpowder was used for warfare extensively in rockets, flame throwers,
primitive guns and mines. Chinese vessels sailed all over the waters from
Malaya, Indonesia, the Philippines up to to Japan and beyond, for many
centuries. Expeditions went all the way to Africa Printing was soon very
common after its invention in the 7th or 8th century AD. A huge volume of
novels, poems, religious tracts, practical advice, historical texts was
produced and has survived ovre the centuries. This includes a military manual
printed in nthe 1040's (2 decades before the battle of Hastings) that details
gunpowder weapons.
Deep-well drilling was exploited to gain salt brine and petroleum, which
was used for lamps, as well as to produce soot to make ink.

> Whereas within 100 years of developing ...

Copying, adopting, adapting and developing...

> the stern post rudder, the magnetic

Pretty much an exxaggeration. a) Europeans adopted these inventions in the
14th century. In the 15th century they were still not going anywhere. b) Let's
be generous and set 1492 as the start date. Look at a map of 1592
and tell me that 2/3rds of the world were in European hands.
Europeans were all over the place, but with a few notable exceptions, they had
conquered only tiny outposts.

Greetings Karl Heinz

> However, if you're having this discussion with ink and

Before e-mail, all long-distance discussions were held by snail-mail
letters (And I am old enough to have had some)

Greetings

Now I must "weigh" in...according to this page, the chinese didn't invent the
magnetic compass...they invented the "South Pointing Chariot". They also state
that nowhere does the chinese documentation ever discribe a "magnetic"
compass. Appairantly all discriptions refer the the mechanical variety.

An ingenus mechanical device that always points in the same direction. As you
pull it along, the gears inside make the little figure on top turn left and
right opposite to the way the chariot was turned. (Really cool! Check it
out!)

This gizmo would be compleatly useless at sea. If they didn't invent the
magnetic compass, where did they get it from?

Sorry to break a bubble...:-)

Donald Hosford

> "K.H.Ranitzsch" wrote:

> > > Brian (and others), I cannot agree with this as the

> Donald Hosford wrote:

hmm... my research contradicts that.

> An ingenus mechanical device that always points in the same

It really is. I saw a reproduction in the Vancouver Science centre when they
were showing 7000 Years of Chinese Inoovation.

> This gizmo would be compleatly useless at sea. If they didn't invent

Actually I'll have to dissagree here. Magnetic compasses were reported in
china in 300 BC aprox. At least according to the books that I have.

Jaime Tiampo schrieb:
> Donald Hosford wrote:

???? The "Introduction" chapter of that website states: "...astronomy was
another field of Chinese excellence, and the magnetic compass was known as
well..."

> > (Really cool! Check it out!)

The whole site is pretty cool for nifty devices.
http://www.geocities.com/~rrice2/

> Actually I'll have to dissagree here. Magnetic compasses

Not entirely sure about the date, but certainly quite a number of centuries
well before 1000 AD. There are quite a number of books on Chinese technical
history, most notably those by Joseph Needham.

Greetings

> KH.Ranitzsch Wrote:

> Today's culture, science and

I believe one person (could have been C.S. Lewis) said that the people so
revered for modern advancements were "Midgets standing on the shoulders of
giants."

> Brian Bilderback wrote:
Claims to
> >singular greatness in this respect are usually pretty silly.

I think Newton reputably said something like: "If I have seen further, it is
because I am standing on the shoulders of giants."

Someone once said of Crick and Watson "If they cast a long shadow, it is
because it was so late in the day." which is much more like it for a slap in
the face.

The real problem was of attitudes. Chunese culture was very similar to the
classical watershed empire. The emperor derives authority by being able to
inform farmers when to plant crops. It is a culture of answers, not questions.
Any situation that did not already have an official resolution was to be
avoided. Mainland China is easily able to provide for everybody that lives
there, so this culture will not have anything to really unsettle it, and it
will be very robust.

Western culture is one of questions. Everybody does not and cannot have
everything that they would need, so there are lots of unanswered questions. As
everyone can benefit from a solution, solutions are sought out and applied.
The Greek city states, confined to relatively small valleys of arable land,
always rewarded innovations that solved perceived problems (so long as they
could keep their fingernails clean), and would conduct extravagant thought
experiments on the nature of the Universe (unfortunately, they were willfully
ignorant of the need for practical experiments).

While Rome was short on technical innvation, they were spirited copyists and
exploiters, and were not above actual innovation if it did not violate their
own traditions. The corvus was a boarding platform that romans added to naval
combat because they were poor sailors, but had the best infantry of their day,
and among the best of all time. While the ideal roman lifestyle did not
include working with your hands, they were very good engineers, when
necessary.

The Dark Ages were bad as noone in Europe seemed especially keen on

> Brian Bilderback wrote:

> KH.Ranitzsch Wrote:

> Brian Bilderback wrote:
Claims to
> > >singular greatness in this respect are usually pretty silly.

I'm very fond of another Newton quote:

"I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting
myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than
ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

On Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:15:31 +1100 Derek Fulton (Actually Beth in her
> stealth mode) <derekfulton@bigpond.com> writes:

<snip>.... That's kinda like sticking to the now dying idea
> that

Why we have a federal holiday to celebrate Colunbus discovering America first!
Of courdse he was looking for China and might have thought he was near
India... Hence Indios...

Two pipes says, "Discovered? I thought we were here all the time! I know, it
has to do with Columbus not being able to admit he was lost and having to ask
directions! Isabella would have asked!"

Gracias,