Hello, With all the previous discussions regarding Snipers, I was thinking
about how to integrate Snipers into DirtSide II. After taking a look at my
ideas regarding conversion factors between FMA and DSII, you might be
interested in how to use snipers in DirtSide II. Making Snipers have the Same
abilities in DSII as in StarGrunt is not really possible and we would require
some streamlining to accomplish it. In DSII the Sniper is not designed to kill
units, but to suppress them or make them ineffective. It is possible that an
element may be neutralized because of too many casualties and or being too
scared to act.
The most important factor for the Sniper in DSII is his quality die. To make
an attack the Sniper rolls his quality die. The target uses a D4 for the first
2 inches and shifts up one die for each additional 2 inches plus an additional
shift for soft terrain and 2 shift for hard
terrain. Optional: An additional shift up for armor units...
If the Sniper's QD roll is less than the target's defense die, there is no
effect. If the Sniper's QD roll is greater than of equal that the target's
defense die, the target UNIT receives a suppression/under fire marker.
If the Sniper's QD roll is greater than twice that of the target's
defense die, the target UNIT receives a suppression/under fire marker,
takes a confidence test at +0 and the targeted ELEMENT is destroyed
(squad leader casualty neutralizes Element). If the Sniper's QD roll is
greater than three times that of the target's defense die, the target's UNIT
leader is destroyed instead and the previous effects are felt.
Snipers can only be engaged in close combat. Attacking squads roll their QD as
if initiating close combat normally. If the attacking squads succeed, roll
their QD versus the Sniper's QD. Shift up the Sniper's QD by one if in Soft
Terrain and twice in Hard Terrain. If the Sniper rolls greater than the
attacker, he got away. Move the sniper 4 inches away from the CC position in
any direction desired by the Sniper's owner. Snipers move 3 inches per turn.
Snipers cannot engage in close combat or ranged fire as regular troops do.
Buying a Sniper in FMA you get the following costs:
Veteran QD D10 20
Motivation +2 05
Sniper Skill 30
Sniper Rifle 84
Total 139
Divide 139 by 20 for conversion between FMA and DSII and you get 7. That's
just one man. Let's assume that there have to be at least two, Sniper and
Spotter. Call the cost 15 points.
Phillip,
Keep up the good work with the rules mods/adds...
> -----Original Message-----
[snip good stuff]
> Snipers can only be engaged in close combat. Attacking squads
[snip more good stuff]
----- End Original -----
I would add 2 provisions:
1) Snipers may be attacked by other snipes. Quality of Attacking Sniper vs.
Quality of Target Sniper -1 shift. If Attacker's roll exceeds the
target's roll the target sniper must move 4 inches away into cover (if
available) and is suppressed. Attacker's roll exceeds the target's roll by 2x,
the target sniper is dead. Target's roll exceeds attacker's roll, the target
is suppressed. Target's roll exceeds attacker's roll by 2x, no effect.
2) Any unit may fire on a sniper's position to suppress the sniper. Quality of
Unit vs. Quality of Sniper. If the Unit's roll exceeds the quality of the
sniper, the sniper is suppressed. Otherwise, no effect.
In both cases, adjust rolls for cover.
---
Ok, maybe I'm dense or maybe I just don't get it, but DSII is primarily an
armor game, and what little I've read about tanks and snipers indicated that
snipers just do NOT like tanks, and generally won't stay set up in the same
area where there are armor units.
The primary example I have of this is "Tank Sergeant" written by Ralph Zumbro.
He served in an armor unit in Vietnam, and in his experience the VC snipers
would leave the area almost as soon as a tank would show up. The reason for
this was that if there was any sniper activity, the tanks would lay a couple
of 90mm rounds into the area where the sniper was set up, or if the sniper
could be accurately located, they would take out the tree, and the sniper all
in one operation.
Now this is JMO, and I certainly don't have any direct experience with tank
operations, snipers, or combat, but I would limit snipers to affecting
infantry, and make them take a reaction test whenever they were targeted by a
tank.
Brushman
"Bell, Brian K" <Brian_Bell@dscc.dla.mil> on 09/07/99 12:16:17 PM
Please respond to gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
To: "'gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU'"
<gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
cc: (bcc: Bill Brush/InfSys/Revenue)
Subject RE: Integrating Snipers into DirtSide II
:
> -----Original Message-----
[snip good stuff]
> Snipers can only be engaged in close combat. Attacking squads
[snip more good stuff]
----- End Original -----
I would add 2 provisions:
1) Snipers may be attacked by other snipes. Quality of Attacking Sniper vs.
Quality of Target Sniper -1 shift. If Attacker's roll exceeds the
target's roll the target sniper must move 4 inches away into cover (if
available) and is suppressed. Attacker's roll exceeds the target's roll by 2x,
the target sniper is dead. Target's roll exceeds attacker's roll, the target
is suppressed. Target's roll exceeds attacker's roll by 2x, no effect.
2) Any unit may fire on a sniper's position to suppress the sniper. Quality of
Unit vs. Quality of Sniper. If the Unit's roll exceeds the quality of the
sniper, the sniper is suppressed. Otherwise, no effect.
In both cases, adjust rolls for cover.
---
Brian Bell
> bbrush@rev.state.ne.us wrote:
> Ok, maybe I'm dense or maybe I just don't get it, but DSII is
That's ridiculous. (Sort of like saying why have vehicle rules in Stargrunt
since it's primarily an infantry game) Dirtside has infantry and other units
too, and it is the successful intergration of all those elements into a
combined arms force that makes for challenge and victory.
> The primary example I have of this is "Tank Sergeant" written by Ralph
That assumes, (as was usually NOT the case, particularly with good snipers
that don't fire more than once or twice from the same location) that you even
know where the shot is coming from. Heck. Here you are with your tank platoon
in heavy terrain. The lead TC get's his head blown off, EVERYBODY immediately
buttons up. Now who's going to find the sniper? (You can't hear him from
inside the tank.) The PBI of course. But that serves to suppress and take
time. There are numerous accounts of tank commanders and other crewmen being
killed by snipers since the beginning of tank warfare, which generally serves
to degrade the platoon's effectiveness especially in the short term as the
platoons gets itself sorted out and as
individual tanks are forced to button-up and thus reduce control
effectiveness and situational awareness.) And even if you don't screw with the
tanks but with their accompanying infantry you end up with the same situations
since tanks that go forward into constricted terrain without infantry support
are asking for it.
And keep in mind that stargrunt features snipers with heavy
anti-material sniping
weapons. Accuracy combined with punch could serve to kill even partuially
exposes crewmen regardless of their personaly armor and helmets or accurately
target vulnerable portions of the tank such vision blocks, sensors, comms
arrays, etc.
It makes for an interesting "flavor" option for the game. cheers...
Old war story time:). I had a PSG that served a couple tours in Vietnam.
In
the course of his travels in the 11th ACR a fellow TC was shot by a sniper,
said shot shattering his jaw. As this TC had just gotten back from having
dental work done, this served to mightily piss him off. Using 152mm Beehive
rounds he went after all likely locations until the sniper (or parts of him)
was found.
FWIW
Michael Brown
[quoted original message omitted]
> Michael Brown wrote:
> Old war story time:). I had a PSG that served a couple tours in
A. How long did it take for them to get their shit together and and fire at
every likely location then sit there and wait for the medevac to come and
evacutaing the wounded TC? WHile at the same time sending grunts out to all
these locations to look for the (supid because he didn't relocate like he
should have) sniper. B: What was happening to their mission they were supposed
to be conducting at the time while they were doing all that?
If the answer was "fifteen minutes" (no doubt it was longer by the time they
moved out again.) Then you've just described Suppression. That's one of the
snipers jobs. Take a few pot shots, hopefully hit somebody, then everything
stops for a while so they can hunt down the sniper and medevac casualties.
That's suppression. The fact that the sniper (probably just a sharpshooter
left behind to cause trouble was killed was immaterial to the reason he was
put there to take that shot and the effect it had on the target unit.
Los
> FWIW
The PBI of
> course. But that serves to suppress and take time. There are numerous
> On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 bbrush@rev.state.ne.us wrote:
> Ok, maybe I'm dense or maybe I just don't get it, but DSII is
Dirtside is about combined arms, not tanks.
> The primary example I have of this is "Tank Sergeant" written by Ralph
This was because the tanks had Behive rounds. It strips away all soft cover
and kills you at the same time. Air defense units are also used by
the Israelies to supress sniper units in lebanan. (take one PIVAD Vulcan
mounted on a 113, remove the range only radar and add more ammo. Get a gist of
where the sniper is hiding, hose down the building he is firing from. Several
thousand rounds of 20mm do wonders to light concrete buildings.)
Now, give me a sniper unit or two with my combined arms units and I'll get him
back in your rear. Sure spend a turn or two supressing my 15 pt unit with a
platoon of tanks. Looks like the sniper may have done his job if it gets to
that. Now if it take out a infantry element or light vehicle or something then
great.
> Now this is JMO, and I certainly don't have any direct experience with
Sure, they'd be succeptable to counter fire and APSW's in my mind. Thus they'd
take fire occasionally and probably have to take confidence checks like anyone
else. Usually, I'd expect a sniper team to be a veteran or elite unit, so
they'd pass with flying colors.
The rules I've seen have them set up in an anti material role and with
something like a 18 inch range (1.8 kilometers, not unreasonable considering
the capabilities of current.50 cal precision rifles). Getting that APSW team
there to deal with it will be tricky. Light vehicles would make more sense.
Probably your recce elements or IS Armoured Cars.
> On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Los wrote:
> Michael Brown wrote:
Ahh the sheridan. Big ass Beehive round. Very very effective.
> A. How long did it take for them to get their shit together and and
sniper.
> B: What was happening to their mission they were supposed to be
The kind of sniper in this case was probably using a very light rifle that
wasn't very accurate. He was also probably pretty close. Give that VC a BMG.50
and some training and he would have done quite a bit more than buggering the
jaw of a tank commander and pissing him off.