Greetings!
Riddle me this...
What do people think about infantry walkers?
I love 'em. They have that "sci-fi" feel to them, they can be
moderately well armed, and they have a good deal of mobility. True, they don't
have much in the way of armour, but they are cheaper than a tank (well, in
theory). Nice close infantry support...
We use the plethora of Heavy Gear figs to represent infantry walkers, with
different ranges asigned to different
nationalities/polities. The larger Mammoths and Nagas also make for
GREAT
size 3-5 combat walkers.
However, not everyone in our group shares my enthusiasm. A few of us really do
not think that they are worth it, due to their low armour rating. They would
prefer powered armour or APCs. A number of infantry walkers DO get slagged in
our games, primarily due to the number of IAVRs
and GMS/Ps out there. All of our games are rough on vehicles.
What do other people think? Do you find them worthwhile?
I know Owen Glover posted a scenario some time back, with a number of size 1
and 2 infantry walkers ambushing a column of infantry and vehicles. I would
LOVE to try that.
On an ancillary note; how do you all find vehicles in SGII? Do they have a
high survival rate on table?
I am just starting to paint up a bunch of walkers for DSII, so I have yet to
find out their value in that scale. I think that they have a role...in theory.
Laterish!
Ken
> On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Kenneth Winland wrote:
> What do people think about infantry walkers?
In DS2, I use Size 1 Walkers as heavy weapons support for my Powered
Armour. They can drop in from orbit with the PA, and provide GMS/H &
MDC/2
support than is much appreciated at times.
> We use the plethora of Heavy Gear figs to represent infantry
Haven't tried Walkers in SG2.
> However, not everyone in our group shares my enthusiasm. A few
Low armour values? They have (AFAIK) the same armour rules as any vehicle
- so any light vehicle would be as vulnerable, or nearly. I run a light
tank in SG2, Size/Armour 2...it tends to die as well. Sg2 is rough on
vehicles.
In DS2, my Walker arm tends to take ridiculous casualties in every
operation. I generally figure that 3/4 of them will die everytime they
drop in...but while they're alive, they provide valuable fire support, and
diversions for the PA to get down to the real work.
> I know Owen Glover posted a scenario some time back, with a
Missed that one. Is it webified anywhere?
> On an ancillary note; how do you all find vehicles in SGII? Do
Depends. My Size 4 IFVs either die horribly or cut infantry to bits, in
about equal proportions. Killing the GMS/L trooper in your target squad
with the first firing action certainly helps...Having an entire PA squad
volley IAVRs at you really hurts...
> I am just starting to paint up a bunch of walkers for DSII, so I
Orbital drop troop support. Only vehicles that can do orbital drops along with
PA.
My PA companies have the following TO&E:
3 plts PA, each with 4 PA rifle teams & 1 PA GMS/L ENH team.
2 plts 'Ursus' Size 1 infantry walkers, ea w/ 2 MDC/2 equipped & 1 GMS/H
ENH equipped walkers.
1 PA rifle team, Coy. Commander.
1 PA Forward Observer team.(for Ortillery & the coy. mortars)
3 PA infatry mortar teams.
Powerful, flexible companies, I've found. The Walkers are a vital, albeit
fragile, part of the force.
(and I'll shortly have enough figs to run a _battalion_ (3 coy.) of the
above!)
Kenneth spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Greetings!
Personally, I think they are a bit unlikely. It is hard to make a mech walk.
It wastes previous space for servos and delicate gyros and control systems, so
pound for pound they'd always be weaker than a vehicle without these glitzy
componenets. They seem like a maintenance nightmare (imagine logistics if
every squad had one). They seem like they'd have to be complex and expensive
and prone to problems relative to simpler designs.
OTOH, If you have PA, they make sense. And they could fill a useful tactical
role. Mark me down as luke warm.
> What do other people think? Do you find them worthwhile?
Like most things, it is not the tool, but the deployment that determines the
effectiveness.
> On an ancillary note; how do you all find vehicles in SGII? Do
In my big con scenario, one side had a wheeled TD with HKP and an
ATST combat walker with HEL/2s. The other side had four aliens APCs
with DFFG/1 and SAW and two aliens gunships with SLAM/3, RFAC/1 and
GMS/H. By the end of the battle, 1 APC (with infantry inside), both
VTOLs and the TD and the Walker were all slagged. 3 APCs were still standing.
I think in an even battle, where people aggressively use their vehicles, they
will be expended. If it is an unfair battle, he on the powerful side may take
less casualties....
> I am just starting to paint up a bunch of walkers for DSII, so I
Testing, my man. It's easy to do with lead guys... they don't bleed.
/************************************************
> Kenneth Winland wrote:
I agree with you on this one
> We use the plethora of Heavy Gear figs to represent infantry
I use GW Epic scale dreadnoughts with the pipes & flags cut off
> However, not everyone in our group shares my enthusiasm. A few of
Using Grav & GEV vehicles exclusively, I find the walkers useful for running
into woods & holding them until the grunts catch up
> I know Owen Glover posted a scenario some time back, with a number
I'd like to see this too. Any chance of a re-post?
<snip>
> I am just starting to paint up a bunch of walkers for DSII, so I
Although a relative DSII novice, I agree with Ken in that there is a certain
something about walkers. My regular opponent seems to agree, as he always
seems to blow them away first! But that's probably me sending them racing off
into harm's away seizing woods...
BTW I was thinking of using them in pairs, each with two LADs on, attached to
an infantry company as a kind of SPAA. Would two LADs violate the weapons to
vehicle size rule?
Not really, but once you cost it out, it would be cheaper to get a ZAD in
support of the whole assault.
'Neath Southern Skies
http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/
*****
> -----Original Message-----
> Personally, I think they are a bit unlikely. It is hard to make a
There was a very comprehensive discussion on this just a while back, with
people debating the pros and cons of infantry walkers, and walkers in general.
Are the old messages archived? And is there a way to see them?
Greetings!
> On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Personally, I think they are a bit unlikely. It is hard to make a
I have to agree with your points... But I still love 'em. <g> For me, they are
very SF.
> OTOH, If you have PA, they make sense. And they could fill a useful
Our games are so hard on vehicles, it is hard for me to gauge walker's value.
I *think* they are keen in a tactical sense, given certain terrain and
tactical perameters. But I am still figuring them out.
> Like most things, it is not the tool, but the deployment that
True!
> In my big con scenario, one side had a wheeled TD with HKP and an
My bet is on those gunships! Ouch!
Laterish!
Ken
Greetings!
> On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Brian Burger wrote:
> In DS2, I use Size 1 Walkers as heavy weapons support for my Powered
That's a cool role... and makes sense, too.
> Low armour values? They have (AFAIK) the same armour rules as any
Yeah, it is <G>.
> In DS2, my Walker arm tends to take ridiculous casualties in every
Are the walker casualties that high because they draw so much enemy fire?
> Missed that one. Is it webified anywhere?
He mentioned the scenario in a paragraph a long while back. I don't think that
he ever wrote it up. I think that it would be swell if he did. I would like to
see the scenario and his comments after the scenario was run.
> Depends. My Size 4 IFVs either die horribly or cut infantry to bits,
> My PA companies have the following TO&E:
<snip>
Neat! As I am just getting into DS in a serious fashion (I have run con games
before, but few *home* games), this is great food for thought.
> (and I'll shortly have enough figs to run a _battalion_ (3 coy.) of
VERY neat!
Later,
Ken
> At 12:56 AM 11/20/98 -0800, you wrote:
Depends on how you use 'em. Treat your IW like little tanks, or use them as
scouts, and they tend to die quickly. However, if you make proper use of
cover, and deploy them along with regular infantry or PA, they can be quite
effective. We tend to have lots of large forests on our boards, and the IW can
move through them without much problem. I try keep my IW in the woods as much
as possible, coming to the edge only to fire, and then
re-entering cover on the next turn. Reasonably effective, and (perhaps
more importantly) annoying as hell. Even better is having the IW pop out of a
river...especially when the enemy is driving away with their backs exposed.
They also work pretty well in an urban environment (for a few rather blurry
pictures of one of our urban boards, see
> Kenneth Winland wrote:
> What do people think about infantry walkers?
> I am just starting to paint up a bunch of walkers for DSII, so
The only, rpt, only use I have for walkers in Dirtside II is in the heavy
weapons platoons of my Varangian Guard Orbital Insertion Infantry
Regiment http://www.angelfire.com/va/basileus/guard.html
For 141 points, I get a GMS/H on legs, whose only advantage over a
68-point grav jeep w/ GMS/H is the fact that I can drop it from orbit.
If walkers ring your 'cool bell', then so be it. Just keep in mind that they
end up very dead, very quickly against equal points in real troops.
> At 01:54 20/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
> control systems, so pound for pound they'd always be weaker than a
SNIPPAGE
> Laterish!
I also fall into the "unlikely but cool all the same" faction on walkers, and
I'm really pleased with the DS2 IWs I just bought from GZG. A thought on the
maintenance requirements: The walkers could be equipped with some simple AI so
that they could do the basic maintenance on each other while
the crews were eating\sleeping\abluting etc.
There is an excellent SF novel called "The Star Fraction", by?Ken McLeod?
in which (in passing) the high tech nations have "teletroopers"- big
PA\IW
size machines, remotely piloted. I could quite see the "first bloke through
the door" in future being something like a Honda P-50-Kai!
Rob
[quoted original message omitted]
In a message dated 98-11-20 02:00:24 EST, you write:
<<
> On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Personally, I think they are a bit unlikely. It is hard to make a
> control systems, so pound for pound they'd always be weaker than a
I have to agree with your points... But I still love 'em. <g> For me, they are
very SF.
> OTOH, If you have PA, they make sense. And they could fill a useful
Our games are so hard on vehicles, it is hard for me to gauge walker's value.
I *think* they are keen in a tactical sense, given certain terrain and
tactical perameters. But I am still figuring them out.
> Like most things, it is not the tool, but the deployment that
True!
> In my big con scenario, one side had a wheeled TD with HKP and an
My bet is on those gunships! Ouch!
Laterish!
Ken
I agree with both of you, yes they would be service/logistics
intensive, but
on the otherhand they are in part what attracted me to 20/25mm Sci-Fi.
In the
games we played when SGII first came out (moderate/large size game,
several
platoons, 1/2 dozen vehicals total) we used Kryomech Raven class
walkers (mine were painted German WWII "Ambush pattern" for NSL). In urban
environments with lots of rubble, obstacles and destroyed buildings, walkers
were able to hunker down in defilade and pop up at just the right moment let
loose with rockets and mini-guns and scoot. Kinda like helicopter
gunships with legs. Walkers died quick though if they tried to slug it with
MBT tanks heavily armed opponents.
> On Fri, 20 Nov 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Brian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> > > GMS/H carrier. I think of them (similar to grav bikes) as 0.5 size
> > > vehicles.
According to the Dirtside II rulebook, a Size 1 walker _is_ an infantry
walker. That's how I run them, as well. Honestly, if they couldn't mount
GMS/H, I'd not run them - otherwise a PA plt can have equally effective
weapons and they're much more survivable than the Infantry Walkers.
If you want to run Size.5 Walkers, maybe call them 'Heavy Powered Armour'?
> > > To me, a size 0.5 infantry walker is a platform on which MLPs,
Hold on a sec, please. I'm talking about Powered Armour infantry (PA). Not
little vehicles. In SG2, PA can carry anything regular infantry can, including
GMS/P. In addition, they can mount Class 1 weaponry, as below. This is a
bit of a blurring of the PA/walker line, but not much. They can't mount
GMS/L (at least, none of the sample PA loadouts in the back of the SG2
book do, but they have everything else mentioned)
> The NAC has a GAC/1 (the L23A2 HVAT), the ESU has an RFAC/1
It is - Size 1 Infantry Walkers, or any other Size 1 or larger vehicle.
> > > Of course, where do you crew your IWs from? 75% is high
Sort
> > of like air forces in WW1. Lots of pilots get killed, but lots of
I am starting to drop my PA/IW coys in closer groupings. Maybe it'll
help. The problem is that often they're the only vehicles I have on the board,
so they just scream 'shoot me'...
> or crew them with convicts....
but then I'd have to rename them "Australia"-class Infantry Walkers <g>
I
like the class name they have now - "Ursus"-class - latin for bear, and
they look a bit like bears on their hind legs do...
<<snip all sorts of things, including a change of topic:>>
> Ditto for GMS/L, when I get around to building a model of one
There's the question of the hour, gentlebeings. Can you hump a TOW any
distance, and how many people does it take to ensure it's pointed in the right
direction?
(That sounds like some new version of the lightbulb joke...)
[quoted original message omitted]
Brian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> According to the Dirtside II rulebook, a Size 1 walker _is_ an
What can PA mount that matches GMS/L (D12x2 or D12x4 penetration in
Stargrunt)?
> If you want to run Size .5 Walkers, maybe call them 'Heavy Powered
Well, for my purposes, the designation 'infantry walker' is sufficient (if not
coherent with the world at large). To me, size 1
to 3 walkers are combat walkers, and 4-7 are transport walkers.
Although somebody in our group bought an Imperial Titan which I think may be a
size 6 or 7 Combat Walker.... (yikes!)
> Hold on a sec, please. I'm talking about Powered Armour infantry (PA).
Not
> little vehicles. In SG2, PA can carry anything regular infantry can,
I'll buy that part....
> > I can handle the autocannons. Even a GMS/L is....only moderately
My point here was people were talking about using Heavy Gears for these. I've
seen (I think) Gears.... they look like big 30mm PA. So that would make them
big enough to not be 25mm PA, but not (IMHO) big enough to be Infantry Walkers
of Size 1.
> > Yeah.... or find a way to toughen your IW or find a way to use
Well, those kinds of situations occur. Drops usually are low-vehicle
situations. But, as a note, if they are getting creamed out of all proportion,
you may want to figure that maybe not dropping so many but dropping more PA to
cover them and to draw fire and protect them is merited.
> > or crew them with convicts....
(OOOOH. A shot at our Aussie friends.... Careful, they fire back with class 5
weapons.... Deadly Sarcasm and Awful Irony....)
/************************************************
> There's the question of the hour, gentlebeings. Can you hump a TOW any
If you consider any of the similar anti-armour systems; Milan, TOW or
AT-4
for example, they all only NEED on man to assemble and fire. Normal teams vary
from nation to nation but generally 3 to 5 would be expected. It would be
reasonable for a team to be expected to carry its launcher up to one km to a
firing position (eg vehicle access into a position is limited). Additional
assistance would be needed to 'ferry' ammunition.
The question of Man Portable as opposed to Man Pack is vastly different.
These systems are Man Portable in that they be dismantled into components that
each CAN be carried by one man; hence Man Portable. But the weight of teh
launchers, control systems and ammunition would preclude the title of Man
Pack; ie it would not be reasonable to expect the team to conduct normal
operations with more than all this and one or two rounds of ammunition
strapped on backs!
> On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Brian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
(digs out SG2 book) Infantry Plasma Guns (d12, or d12x2 Major hits) or IAVRs
(same as IPG). They're not quite as powerful, but the best that can be done.
The short
answer is 'not a damn thing', except that if we ran PA-crewed
man-portable
GMS/Ls, they could move a lot faster than regular squishy-infantry
crewed weapons.
> > If you want to run Size .5 Walkers, maybe call them 'Heavy Powered
OK. Actually, my idea of 'Heavy Powered Armour' for size.5 walkers
wouldn't work - the larger PA in SG2 is already called Heavy PA. Light
Walkers, maybe.
One of my gaming group invented stats for a ds2 version of one of the Titans.
Scary reading...big target, though.
> > Hold on a sec, please. I'm talking about Powered Armour infantry
OK, I see your point. As I game in 15mm SG2, a Heavy Gear (or, for that
matter, some of the BattleTech Mechs) make quite nice Size 1 walkers.
How would you handle damage to your Size.5 walkers? For SG2, given that both
heavy PA & armour 1 vehicles are d12, maybe make them Armour d12x1.5? In DS2,
I don't know...that's harder.
> > > Yeah.... or find a way to toughen your IW or find a way to use
Perhaps, but dropping less means correspondingly lessened firepower for my
forces, and that they'd become even higher-priority targets for my
opposition. I'll have to see.
> > > or crew them with convicts....
That would be DSSG/5 (Deadly Sarcasm Super Cannon) and AIM/5 (Awful
Irony Munitions)? I'm already digging a slit trench to shield myself from the
antipodean volleys....<g>
Brian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> > What can PA mount that matches GMS/L (D12x2 or D12x4 penetration in
Given. And this is where my idea of a 0.5 size vehicle fits in. It is like a
big (I like your term) Light Walker (huge PA) which could
mount a couple of spaces of weapons - like A GMS/L.
> OK. Actually, my idea of 'Heavy Powered Armour' for size .5 walkers
Good Name. I'm using it..... you can't stop me.....
> One of my gaming group invented stats for a ds2 version of one of the
(in SG2, if it was size 7, I think you shouldn't really have that much trouble
hitting it..... but armour 6 or 7 would be brutal to
penetrate....).
> > My point here was people were talking about using Heavy Gears for
big
> > enough to be Infantry Walkers of Size 1.
I thought so.:)
> How would you handle damage to your Size .5 walkers? For SG2, given
Well, no. Vehicle armour (Armour 1) is only equal to D12x1, so I can't very
well do that. I'd give them D12 armour. But they'd get some good ECM. And
maybe smoke generators or decoys (I forget if these take space). I might give
them D6x2 Armour. That would be better than PA slightly.
I was also thinking, your heavy weapons should get 10" range bands versus sub
size 1 targets. That would just about give them all the benefit I'd want them
to have.
> Perhaps, but dropping less means correspondingly lessened firepower
Well, if you are trading in 1 IW for 3 PA or some such rate, losing 3 or 4 IW
gives you a couple fo decent squads of PA which can pack quite a punch and
move fast. And they are harder to swat (their FP is distributed over the
unit). If they have GMS, Plasma Guns, IAVRs, and maybe some Ortillery (support
for the drop), then they should be fine. Ortillery is really the PA answer to
dangerous foes.
> > (OOOOH. A shot at our Aussie friends.... Careful, they fire back
Gun. DSSG would imply Gun. DSSC would be Cannon. (nitpicky b@st*rd,
ain't I?).
and AIM/5 (Awful Irony
> Munitions)? I'm already digging a slit trench to shield myself from
I'd suggest more than a slit trench. You are in TO area, so their must be some
nearby National Defence Air Raid Shelters or a deep mineshaft or some
underground garage. Remember, one of these Aussies was the one who bogged off
with the Good Lord's Smite button....
Tom with Tongue Planted So Far In Cheek It's Breaking Through
/************************************************
> On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Brian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
Light
> > Walkers, maybe.
<gets on phone to Ortillery Command>Want to bet? :) Go ahead - lessens
the confusion over Size 1 'infantry walkers', etc.
> > One of my gaming group invented stats for a ds2 version of one of
DS2, actually. In DS2, Armour 6-7+ isn't that hard to penetrate - get
big MDCs in close, or big DFFGs in even closer. In SG2, it'd be a bitch...
> > As I game in 15mm SG2, a Heavy Gear (or, for that
Da. A friend has a 'Mech done up for a 15mm Size 1 Walker, plus one of the
_old_ Battletech Mechs (in, I think, 1/100 scale or something - big) as
Size 3/4 walker.
> Vehicle armour (Armour 1) is only equal to D12x1, so I
Oops. My math error...Good ECM is good. Smoke dischargers are free, like
the one SAW/APSW, and I think Decoys take up no space - I just skimmed
the rules, and can't find any mention of them taking up space.
> I was also thinking, your heavy weapons should get 10" range bands
Makes sense - and I mucked up the armour levels, you're right. dunno
about
the 10" range band, however - heavy wpns use the 12" band to target
infantry as well, and Light Walkers would be bigger than infantry...
> > but dropping less means correspondingly lessened firepower for my
all my PA/IW use has been in dirtside to date. Can't recall how much
space
PA & IWs take up - it's been ages since I opened MT. MT Ortillery is
most
definetly the answer - nasty particle beam fire...failing that, GMS/H
IWs
are still the only solution. In SG,you've got a few more anti-armour
solutions for infantry...
> > > (OOOOH. A shot at our Aussie friends.... Careful, they fire back
Actually, I'm on the Far West Coast, Victoria, BC to be exact. Possibly some
deep shelters around here, with the naval base...forgot about the Smite
button...I'm for it now...
(OTOH, if I'd told them I'm in Toronto, maybe they'd get rid of the place for
us?) (Loathing Toronto being Canada's second national sport...not
Torontonians, just the city...) (this is getting silly..correction, sillier)
> Tom with Tongue Planted So Far In Cheek It's Breaking Through
don't hurt yourself...
Greetings!
> On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 PERRYG1@aol.com wrote:
> I agree with both of you, yes they would be service/logistics
In the
> games we played when SGII first came out (moderate/large size game,
A lot of my combat walkers have been painted up for the NSL, usually in
Eastern Front schemes. What is is with those NSL and their
"retro" camo... :)
My flatmate loves the old Kryomek walkers, BTW. His OUDF is liberally supplied
with them.
Ken
> [quoted text omitted]
Salutations!
> On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> What can PA mount that matches GMS/L (D12x2 or D12x4 penetration in
Nothing -- I think. A point-fire railgun is d12 (x2 major), and
the GMS/P is standard.
> Well, for my purposes, the designation 'infantry walker' is
Bought one of the Armorcast titans?!? Those puppies are HUGE...even in 28mm! I
think a modular vehicle design would reflect the sucker.
Howdy!
> My point here was people were talking about using Heavy Gears for
Most gears are at least 40mm+ (the Kodiaks and the King Cobras
are
60mm+), but a few gears are teenie. You could always say that the
figures are a *little* bit bigger (thus slightly out of scale with the
infantry). Most of my gears are about the size of the GZG jeeps, and I think
aren't *too* far from size 1. But it's all relative, I guess.
Laterish!
Ken
Howdy!
> On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Glover, Owen wrote:
> These systems are Man Portable in that they be dismantled into
Well, THIS could affect scenario design...!:)
Laterish!
Ken
Brian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> > (in SG2, if it was size 7, I think you shouldn't really have that
Read DS2, never played yet. Get the impression the balance is different than
SG2.... so necessitates different thinking for same systems. Am using some of
differences in DS2 ranges and chits to justify choosing one weapon over
another while SG2 makes them near the same.
> > Vehicle armour (Armour 1) is only equal to D12x1, so I
That would be good.
> Makes sense - and I mucked up the armour levels, you're right. dunno
Yeah. I guess a size 12" range bands for support weapons stays. I guess the
smaller 0.5 size get
- ECM (good) for self protection
- Decoys, smoke dischargers
- D12 or D6x2 armour probably
- 2 or 3 spaces of gear
- easier use of smaller stuff to get cover bonuses. Plus I'd probably
let them go IP.
I'm going to write this up sometime soon.
As an aside, since you do both DS and SG.... question for you: 1. APFCs in DS2
are treated as CDM roughly in SG2.
2. How do you do stealth? I've been experimenting with it - I have
tried the following: stealth = ECM shifts (open shift). Versus direct fire,
I'm wafling on using stealth. In DS2, it seems to impact signature and
therefore does (IIRC) affect DF weapons. Maybe this is chameleon effect stuff
that makes vehicles harder to target. What do you think?
> > Well, if you are trading in 1 IW for 3 PA or some such rate, losing
Have you got the GMS/P rules someone wrote for DS2? They should be in
the list archive. With those, and IAVRs, you've got some anti-armour
capability. Back that up with ortillery (which you don't want close to you in
case it misses) and you are laughing.
> > I'd suggest more than a slit trench. You are in TO area, so their
> > was the one who bogged off with the Good Lord's Smite button....
Possibly
> some deep shelters around here, with the naval base...forgot about the
Sorry, got confused. Thought of Mr.Goodall for a moment.... (brain clunks into
correct gear now...). Comox ought to have some bunker to run and hide in, and
I'm sure MAREUPAC has someplace to stick your head that you'd be safe. Grab
some tanks and jump in the ocean. Their orbital sensors will have a hard time
picking you out, even though Aussie Deathsats have a fierce reputation.... (I
think the Thor Javelin was actually a copy of a real Aussie weapon....).
> (OTOH, if I'd told them I'm in Toronto, maybe they'd get rid of the
WOOOOPEEEE. But only after we got Ken, Adrian, Allan and the few other
worthwhile folk (well, I guess there are a lot of them) to flee from that
Urban Nightmare. (Turn the Big Smoke into the Big
Smoked....)
> (Loathing Toronto being Canada's second national sport...not
But bits of the message are OT.
> > Tom with Tongue Planted So Far In Cheek It's Breaking Through
That would be if I had tongue planted in someone else's.....stop it.... no
don't go there.... <CLICK><NO CARRIER>
/************************************************
> On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Brian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
It does. Difference in scale, granularity, etc. For instance, DFFGs in SG2
smoke anything on the table. In DS2, they have massive range problems -
only between 30-50% range of most other weapons in the same size class.
They're still very powerful, but when your opponent can kill you before you
can even hit him, that bites. Infantry are the main difference, of course. All
the
SAW/Infantry Plasma type weapons are run together, as either regular
ranged fire from rifle teams or APSWs (anti-personnel support weapons).
> Am using some of differences in DS2 ranges and chits to
Makes sense. There are vehicle designs that make sense in DS2 that are strange
in sg2, and vice versa. The DFFG example above is the best one. The other is
that in DS2, the MDC is the best weapon going, in most circumstances. They
have no real advantages in SG2 over HKPs, while in DS2 there's a noticable
range difference, although the two weapons share damage profiles.
> I guess the smaller 0.5 size get
Sounds good. for direct fire, they'd be targetted as Size 1 vehicles,
or...?
> As an aside, since you do both DS and SG.... question for you:
We haven't added DS2's Anti-Personel Fragmentation Charges to SG2 yet.
There was a proposal from one of my gaming group to treat them as Light
Artillery (mortar) rounds going off anywhere within (iirc) 4" of the vehicle,
but we never implemented or playtested it.
My use of CMDs is also limited, but reading the book suggests that that's a
good place to start for representing APFCs in SG2. (for that matter, I can't
think of any APFC use in DS2. We've got them on vehicles, but the vehicles
with APFC never get close assaulted, and the vehicles with it do get close
assaulted...go figure)
> 2. How do you do stealth? I've been experimenting with it - I have
In DS2, stealth does affect direct fire weaponry - but not GMS fire,
which uses ECM, while ECM has no affect on DF wpns. I figure it's electronic
emmisions damping, IR & other shielding, chameleon paint, etc etc. Using
stealth in SG2 would be fairly easy: instead of using the vehicles actual size
when firing at it, use the stealthed size to determine range bands
&
range dice. EG if firing at a Walker with a normal Signature of 2 (a size 1
Walker, in other words) which is running Stealth 1, treat it as only a Size 1
target. Simpler example: A Size 5 MBT with Stealth 1 becomes a Size
4 target, for all direct-fire weapons.
> Have you got the GMS/P rules someone wrote for DS2? They should be in
I missed the GMS/P rules. I'll take a look for them, tho. IAVRs are
nice, but have very limited range (only 4" on the DS2 table). OTOH, try
close-assaulting armour that's trying to withdraw thru a wooded area,
where PA move faster than armour...dead tanks...
the wandering habits of ortillery bring to mind Murphy's first Law of Combat:
There is no such thing as friendly fire. (if you haven't seen Murphy's Laws of
Combat yet, get thee to the web and get a copy...very good)
> > Actually, I'm on the Far West Coast, Victoria, BC to be exact.
Possibly
> > some deep shelters around here, with the naval base...forgot about
Originally invented for dingo hunting and 'roo culling, I'm sure. (I'm
also sure that now I'll _have_ to find that bunker...) <g>
(some other listmember wrote last week 'give me stereotypes or give me death'.
Fine, but not both, right?)
> > (OTOH, if I'd told them I'm in Toronto, maybe they'd get rid of the
Hear Hear! Even the people I know who live there wouldn't miss the place
much...(for the non-Canadians on the list, pardon us. But as I said
below,)
> > (Loathing Toronto being Canada's second national sport...not
Does OT mean Off Topic or On Topic? I'd always thought it was OFF TOPIC
(that's how I've used it in the past)... (is this part of the message OT
or not???)
> >
Please don't go there....please...thank you.
If you had a forked tongue you could plant it in _both_ cheeks...at the
same time.