For your perusal, I submit: The Republic of India. Please comment upon,
question, praise or savage this as you see fit. Any and all feedback is
appreciated.
This is the beginning of the effort: the timeline and a few overviews.
Number/Size/Name/Location of colonies is still undecided, outside of the
general notes. I plan to have this up on the net sometime in the next month or
so, with images and SSDs to follow. Ship images, well...as I get them
painted.
India in the GZGverse
This work is non-canon. It is intended to add another mid-level player
to the GZGverse, with little disruption to the established timeline of events.
There are a few departures from standard GZG canon in this work. Primarily,
the invasion of India by the Eurasian Union. There are a few other
alterations, specifically the destruction of Delhi
(and subsequent razing of Amritsar), and the other later actions that cascade
from the ESU occupation of India. It's my opinion that this will add much to
the canon, and detract very little. I aim to make this at the very least
reasonably compatible with what Jon has already established in order to
satisfy my own sense of completeness, and to make the Indian nation and forces
as 'canon' as possible.
The Republic of India (India) is a Conventional power (subject to the
judgement of Jon & The List), with the following ratings, per the GZGpedia
site:
Political: 6
Military: 6/7
Economic: 6/7
Size: 7/8
(Slash-divided ratings represent India's transitional state. If the
humans can win the Xeno War, she might be able to take her place just below
the Major Powers, but this, like all else, is in question...)
The Republic of India entered the 21st century as the world's most populous
democracy in the world. While making great strides in technical and industrial
fields, it was still weighed down by
internal divisions, low literacy, and grinding poverty for much of its
citizenry. The confrontation with Pakistan over Kashmir occupied much of the
national security attention, as did the slow growth of China, already well
ahead of India in both economics and industry. India could cast its
gaze west, and see a nuclear-armed enemy. East, and see the potential
muddle of Indochina, Indonesia beyond that. North, Russia, Nepal and China,
the latter two contesting their borders with India. South, naught but ocean
until the cold ice of the Antarctic...and some of the most important trade
routes in the world. Danger threatened, while opportunities beckoned. India
had a very fine line to walk, in the coming years. It would fare the best it
could, in a changing world, and beyond.
2010+ - The staring match over Kashmir continues on for decades, with
both
sides sparring now and then, the sabre-rattling
kept low-key, as neither are willing to escalate to the presumed nuclear
war that would follow.
2027 - India watches the destruction of Israel and the beginning of the
consolidation of Islamic Araby under the House of Saud with no little
trepidation. Industrial, agricultural and technological
self-sufficiency is given high priority, a trend
that will continue for more than a century; the practice of buying and
improving/adapting the work of others proves to be
fruitful.
2032 - India adds its own monies to the Gilderstein Foundation, under
the table; small amounts, but it was to have a large dividend later.
2037 - Border clashes with Pakistan flare up, after the hardline
Security Alliance Party is elected to control both houses of the Sansaad, the
Indian Senate. Pakistan is informed, despite its new backing by the expanding
House of Saud, that the status quo in Kashmir will be enforced.
2043 - The conquest of Malaysia and Borneo by Indonesia, and the
expansion of the new caliphate (now stretching from Morocco to Pakistan) puts
India in what Muslim pundits name 'The Prophet's Vice'. The creation of the
Pan African Union puts still more pressure on India, on the maritime borders.
The Indian Navy, a benefactor of slow, steady expansion, patrols almost all
of the Indian Ocean, denying the newly-created Islamic Federation and
the
PAU navies blue-water access, while guaranteeing
passage of all commercial ships. The ports of Chennai, Kolkata and Mumbai
bustle with international shipping, adding to India's coffers.
2047 - The Chinese invasion of Russia and subsequent coup close any
non-hostile land border India might have had. Surrounded
now by enemies, India again makes her neutral stance very clear - backed
up with naval and ballistic missile defense exercises.
2050 - Indian markets are hit hard by the collapse of the USA, as are
others worldwide. Still trying to raise its population's standard of living,
some 'austerity measures' are met with resistance, and internal cultural
divisions sharpen for a time.
2051 - The Eurasian Union delivers, quietly, an ultimatum to India -
join the EU, peacefully, or else. Three months of tense,
high-level negotiations ensue in private, with the militaries of India,
the
EU - and both the IF and Indonesia - on alert.
Terror incidents are borne stoically by India, the leadership emphasizing the
importance of these talks. The Treaty of Amritsar is signed, guaranteeing
peace between the EU and India, and Indian neutrality. The IF and Indonesia
are outraged, but stern warnings from the EU are taken to heart. Rumors fly,
neither denied nor confirmed by the Indian government, that at the talks India
threatened to take all of Eurasia with them, should they fall.
2052 - Industrial and military contacts between the EU and India are
created, with economic ties growing at a rapid rate on their own.
2054 - India's eastern borders are reinforced as the Indonesian
Commonwealth conquers Burma. Bangladesh is absorbed back into India, with a
massive Muslim population flight to the new border with the
IC. Low-level incidents occur, but nothing
escalates, despite sharp words from both sides. The Indian Navy reminds the IC
that no major naval movements into the Indian Ocean will be tolerated, nor
will the use of the archipelagos as a pirate base. The latter is practically
unenforceable, but occasional clashes do occur, as elements of the Indian Navy
pursue pirate vessels over the (vague) borders.
2058 - Formal relations are established with the Anglian Confederation,
and a brisk technological trade begins once more.
Indian know-how earned in long years of lifting its people from poverty
is
sold to the new super-state, to help with
conditions in certain parts of the old USA. Cultural negotiators are also
dispatched, to ease the transition, emphasizing their neutrality.
2062 - As humanity takes its first step to the stars, the active links
between India, and both the EU and the AC, make the subcontinent a hotbed of
corporate and political intrigue. The EC, the PAU and the LLAR all establish
major trade missions and embassies in New Delhi.
2073 - India launches her first FTL vessel, a modified ESU craft, after
years of careful technical study and debate. The concept of transiting into
another 'universe' is viewed at first with great hesitation by Hindus, but
scientific reassurance eases religious concerns. This is seen later as the
watershed turnaround in India's cultural backwardness.
2075+ - India begins a long-term plan for shipping significant portions
of
its population off-world, think-tanks mulling this
long before technological feasibility. India would choose its colonies
carefully, and huge amounts of colonists would help make their startups
productive, swiftly. 'Trade, and Room to Breathe' is
the motto of the Colonization Service. This era is also known as 'The
Expansion Peace', with conflicts easing, at least a little bit, for a little
while. India takes full advantage of this by ramping up their technological
capabilities,
reverse-engineering whatever they can get their hands on,
from anyone (and selling anything, to anyone, the accusation is made).
2110 - India stays generally neutral in the conflict between the IC and
the OU, happily threatening forces from both sides if their struggles stray
too far into the open areas of the Indian Ocean. It does watch the use of grav
vehicles with particular
interest, paying the OU exorbitant sums of money for good-condition IC
wrecks.
2123 - India again , publicly, stays pointedly neutral as the IF and the
ESU clash, stemming from Muslim pogroms in the southern territories. Secretly,
India assists the ESU against the IF in intelligence matters.
2128 - Some Indian units are hired out in the Mercenary War, to gain
experience against 'professional' forces - the combat
zone of the 'Stans, while good for blooding new units, doesn't provide very
modern opponents. The fighting between the PAU and the IF is watched, closely,
with Indian Navy units attempting again to contain the fighting away from
commercial routes.
2130+ - Indian and IF units clash occasionally along the spacelanes, as
do IC ships as well. The two Muslim empires have their hands quite full with
New Israel, however, India doing what it can to keep them on their toes while
maintaining studious public neutrality. Indian and Israeli technology flows
back and
forth, through back channel means. Indian naval units, following their
nautical predecessors, take on a personal challenge of exterminating pirates,
often going well out of their way to find and hunt them down.
2137 - The First Solar War tests India's neutrality, as both sides make
efforts to sway the small but competent navy to their side. India politely
refuses all offers, and continues to be a conduit for negotiations and
espionage.
2143 - The formation of the UNSC is leapt at by India, already with a
tradition of unflappable calm and neutrality. India also embarks on a naval
expansion program, buying up obsolete and damaged ships, those cast off by the
recent combatants. Into the shipyards they go, to be used as parts, forged
into new vessels, or to come out enhanced, modernized.
2145 - India once again keeps its collective head down, as the Second
Solar War rages across Human space. Indian crews gain some more space combat
experience, as the UNSC fends off the occasional determined foray into the
Core systems.
2158 - India engages in a second round of ship-buying and modernization.
Indian naval architects are considered ambitious and skilled, if somewhat
cavalier. India and New Israel begin secret technical consultations.
2163 - The takeover of New Riyadh by an Islamic fundamentalist faction,
and the ensuing IF civil war, puts India on high alert, putting them on a good
footing to deal with the sudden outbreak of the Third Solar War.
2173 - Despite Indian insistence on the guilt of the IF for the Sumani
IV Incident, the 3SW only intensifies; having learned from the first two, all
major powers conserve their strengths, allowing the war to stretch for 10
years, and more.
2183 - As strange things begin to happen on the Outer Rim, new domestic
ship designs begin to emerge from Indian docks, supplementing the (mostly)
Eurasian vessels in use.
-FB1 End-
2184 - India greets the news of other sentient life with joy - and its
apparent hostility with concern. Indian scientists go to great lengths to get
whatever data and resources they can, about this
new threat (and opportunity).
2186 - India announces to the UN that it will can no longer remain
neutral, not facing this new threat. Indian assistance is offered to both the
UNSC, and to the other national fleets. Both the NAC
and the ESU and their major allies accept, to one degree or another. IF and IC
naval commands refuse.
2189 - Indian losses at the Battle of Centaurus, both in national and
UNSC crews, is significant. The new designs fare well, however, and the losses
are replaced by some of the newer, modern ships,
but never enough.
2193 - India refuses to abandon its colonies - thankfully, few are on
the Kra'Vak axis of advance. Much of the Indian fleet can be used for the
defense of the Core, and Sol...
-FB2 End-
---
Basic Military Overview
Navy (Space & Wet): India uses mostly purchased ESU ships/hulls,
modifying them to a greater or lesser degree. Technologies are often mixed, as
India tends to purchase from several suppliers. There are a few capital fleet
units (one being a
Konstantin-class CVA, another a Komarov-class SDN), and a good amount of
mid-sized and smaller ships. Domestic units have been coming out of
India's
slipways for approx. 10 years, in the mid-range of hulls.
Army: India strives to keep up with the neighbors, so to speak, buying most of
their ground combat technology from the ESU.
India can field a significant amount of reasonably high-tech troops, and
a
larger amount of mid-tech forces.
Doctrine: Protect Trade. Remain Neutral. Hunt Pirates. Warn Once, then Smash.
(Under the table: if it hurts the IF and IC, it's a good thing. Be nice to the
ESU, but remember the ties to the
NAC.)
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004
> Noah wrote:
Looks really great, Noah!
Very nicely done. I like it.
[quoted original message omitted]
On still -further- re-reading (after I sent it, of course), the
following appears to suffer from more than a little hubris. This was intended
to supplement canon, not necessarily to be 'added to', as in 'be made
official'. While I'd love it if that were the case, I could hardly just dump
something onto the list and say, 'Jon, make it so!'
Enjoy it as it develops over the next few months,and do with it as you will.
> Noah V. Doyle wrote:
> 2073 - India launches her first FTL vessel, a modified ESU craft,
I had thought that brahmins lost caste by crossing the ocean (eg sailing to
Britain), and I'd expect that crossing space would be worse. Obviously this
isn't a concern for a lot of Indians, since there are a
lot of them in other countries eg Canada, but I don't know why -- are
they just from a lower different caste? In any event, I don't think it
likely that "scientific reassurance eases religious concerns"--I think
you'd need a convincing religious authority to do that.
It's my understanding that there are a lot of ethnic problems in
India, more severe than there are in e.g. the US. For instance, a
friend of mine is from the northeast--about a year ago, raiders came
through a village near her home and killed all the males. There ought
to be some mention of either the ongoing problems or the solution--IMHO,
ongoing problems would be more interesting (and a heck of a lot more likely).
I'd expect Sikhs to demand their own colony, for instance (you could
combine it with Yet Another Confederate Colony -- might be some
confusion whether the official name is New Ludhiana or New Louisiana). Same
thing with the Tamils. I gather the Dalits (untouchable caste)
aren't exactly thrilled with the situation as it stands either--there
was some discussion last year about the possibility of the whole caste
converting to another religion.
I have doubts about the speed of India modernizing...but if the Islamic Fed
can do it, anyone can, so I won't grouse about that.
I was curious about what you meant by their shipwrights being "cavalier"?
All in all, a good effort, and I'd certainly be happier with India independent
or at least autonomous instead of firmly within the ESU bloc.
From: "Laserlight"
> Obviously this isn't a concern for a lot of Indians, since there are
For every devout hindu there are probably at least a hundred (or hundreds of)
not so devout hindus. I don't think you'd have a hard time getting a sizable
population of Indians into space... Even then it would provide for "good"
conflict to have the devout types verbally (and physically) against the space
faring types.
Damo
> On still -further- re-reading (after I sent it, of course), the
No fear; exactly the way I took it, and I think so would Jon.
> I had thought that brahmins lost caste by crossing the ocean (eg
I've known folks that appeared 'high caste' in the US, but don't know HOW
high, or even if they weren't 'posers'. My impression was of sincerity.
> Obviously this isn't a concern for a lot of Indians, since there are a
And therefore a convinced religious authority. I took it to possibly mean that
religious authority found reassurance in the science, which has happened
before, though rarely.
> It's my understanding that there are a lot of ethnic problems in
> From the text:
While making great strides in technical and industrial fields, it was still
weighed down by internal divisions, low literacy, and grinding poverty for
much of its citizenry.
I considered it mentioned with the 'internal divisions', which, as so much of
the good canon, allows one to either assume that threat from without can
unite, or that the terrible troubles are glossed over in the 'official'
histories. Pollyanna or morose skeptic, your choice.
I'm really starting to warm to this new creation, and had tepid feelings at
first. Well done, Noah, and congratualations to Chris for, once again, getting
your humble lurking servant to pipe up!
The_Beast
On still -further- re-reading (after I sent it, of course), the
following appears to suffer from more than a little hubris. This was intended
to supplement canon, not necessarily to be 'added to', as in 'be made
official'. While I'd love it if that were the case, I could hardly just dump
something onto the list and say, 'Jon, make it so!'
Enjoy it as it develops over the next few months,and do with it as you will.
G'day Noah,
Looks pretty good! Only (minor) quibble I'd have is that as a nation for a
wargame it could do with a few more fights;)
I may be leaning to the blood thirsty side and I don't know a heap about the
region, but what if they openly came to blows a bit with the ESU before bowing
down or if they got swindled by the NAC or something "yeah we'll help... oops
bigger problem over here right now". If you want to play up on the tension
with no actual major actions then I'd opt for spelling out so more of the
internal division (as some one else suggested), you hint pretty well but
actually pointing to the desperation of the situation would also be good.
As a little mental exercise (Noah feel *very* free to ignore all this I did it
to satisfy my own curiosity *not* becuase I thought you should take it on
board!), for those interested in those basic population models I did up,
having India seperate to the rest of the ESU knocks the numbers to around
Low figures EARTH OFFWORLD TOTAL
ESU 701 million 4 million 705 million
India 402 million 3 million 425 million
Middle estimate
EARTH OFFWORLD TOTAL
ESU 3.4 billion 1.2 billion 4.6 billion
India 1.5 billion 900 million 2.4 billion
High estimate
EARTH OFFWORLD TOTAL
ESU 6.5 billion 4.1 billion 10.6 billion
India 3.3 billion 2.9 billion 6.2 billion
Obviously there is a LOT of wiggle room in these and you can just about
anything you want by tweaking parameters, but feeding in the very simple
assumptions[1] I did for the first round of major power modelling this is what
you get as ball park. Given the latest UN pop news we're more likely to be
between the middle and low estimates, but for scenario generation and having
reasons for conflict the middle or between the middle and upper may be more
what you're after.
Cheers
Beth
[1] Assumptions - for those who are very interested or trying to cure
their insomnia
Low estimate assumptions = space travel is restricted, terraforming is a slow
process, society suffers from the aging problem and AIDS etc, though I skipped
major natural disasters, a collapse of the ecosphere due to mismanagement and
a full on population crunch as I don't think
we'd have time/economies left to turn to the stars so quickly in that
case
Middle estimate = pretty middle of the road on all assumptions
High estimate = you would have to be able to pack them into ships like
sardines, have fleets on constant turn around to garden planets and figure out
how to have artificial wombs or multiple births or huge support system to get
this one done
Nice job on "India" Noah,
I was wondering, does the Commonwealth exist in the Tuffleyverse, and if it
does would India still be a member? If it was it would give it very useful
back channel access via the commonwealth council to various heads of state
in Africa, the NAC, the OU, and Pakistan (if it is re-admitted of
course), that would be of immense use in aiding its policy of neutrality.
Additionaly it could even use such channels to great effect in the UN, by
mobilising large voting blocks from amongst the poorer nations against the
NAC, ESU etc (if it is one of many causing the big powers problems in the UN
India does not risk as much negative political fallout with its contacts in
the NAC and
ESU).
Anyway, just an idea to throw into the blender as it were,
Regards,
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 11:19:31AM -0000, Matt Tope wrote:
> I was wondering, does the Commonwealth exist in the Tuffleyverse, and
No supregovernmental organisation _ever_ gets shut down, no matter how
outdated or useless it is, unless it's replaced by a bigger and shinier one.
Whether it actually counted for anything any more would be another matter.
Similarly, I don't expect that India would be permanently ejected unless
it did something _really_ objectionable, and probably not even then.
> Roger Burton West wrote:
> similarly, I don't expect that India would be permanently ejected
Just look at how the African member states rounded on the wealther 1st world
states (Britian, Canada, Australia, NZ etc) over Zimbabwe at the last
Commonwealth meeting. Granted Zimbabwe ended up pulling out of the
Commonwealth rather than be subject to censure, but look how South Africa used
its position to influence the other African members. Pre birth echo's of the
PAU perhaps?
Now if Tuffleyverse independent India palyed a similar game it would go a long
way to helping maintain a state of Neutrality with the PAU, especially in
regards to the influence in the Indian Ocean as Noah described.
Regards,
> Matt Tope wrote:
> Just look at how the African member states rounded on the wealther 1st
No, post-birth. The African Union has already been formed :-/
Regards,
Thanks much, everyone. I'll be incorporating some of these suggestions into
the next revision, later this week.
Any double (or more!) postings are my fault, I think. Teach me to post after
getting up with the kid in the middle of the night.:)
The class/caste divisions in GZG India are most certainly sharp, at
times. I wasn't sure how much to put in the initial writing, but I might note
them a bit more. The brahmins would lose caste by crossing the stars, but the
way I've imagined it, the distance is so far, and they're in a new land where
they can be upper caste once again. I don't see caste ever really going away,
especially not in 200 years. Maybe more flexible than today,
but who knows. I'm in the middle of a crash course in Indian and regional
history, as I work my way through this project - I may get some things
seriously wrong now and then.
I do intend to mention more of the fundamentalist vs. expansionist movements
in Hinduism (the division on the question of jump travel), as a sidebar. As
for the Dalits (untouchables), I'm not sure if they'd be left behind in the
lowest portions of the economy, or shipped off in bulk as labor for the
colonies. The latter 'feels' right, from a story
point-of-view, but I'll have to run at least a basic reality check on
it. The Sikhs, yes, they'd probably end up with a colony of their own, and
maybe Amritsar as an autonomous region. As for the Tamils, this leads me
into Beth's suggestions.:)
Yeah, it is a little light on conflict for a wargame nation - I think
that's an artifact of my tiptoeing around canon. The Pacification of Ceylon
will provide some more grist for the mill, and I do plan on examining the
clashes with the neighbors more. Some clashes with the ESU and IF in the
mountains, the IC on the India-Burma border zone, and around the
archipelagos. The absorption of Bangladesh might make for some more nasty
little clashes. I didn't want to throw them headlong into the major wars, as I
saw their 'neutrality' as one of their defining factors, but it's really more
of an independent stance, playing everyone off as best they can, than not
intervening. Getting screwed by the NAC would be a good echoing of history,
and I'm still fiddling with how the confrontation with the ESU went down.
The population figures are fascinating, at the very least for their
-wide-
range. The middle range stats 'feel' just about right; in the canon timeline,
we seem to muddle along rather well, without trashing everything
- and by 2193, there's an economy that can support -thousands- of
jump-capable warships - which produce nothing. I'm guessing the
spacelanes of the GZGverse are quite crowded with commercial vessels.:) I
don't think that taking India out of the ESU will change all that much. There
won't be quite the population base, but given the pace of development, the ESU
should be just fine.
Indian naval architects, those 'cavalier' fellows (for some reason, I see
India as still being rather chauvinistic). Actually, 'cavalier' is more of a
placeholder word than any good description, but it's not terribly off the
mark. I'm not as yet exactly sure -what- they're going to be like, let
alone able to come up with a good single word for it. To compare them to a
modern-day example, they're somewhere between modern Indian naval design
(buy Russian stuff, improve it with tech from the West), and Israeli
military design theory (hey, that's a neat toy, watch what -we- can make
it do). They're shooting for the latter, but end up most times with more of
the former. There are indigenous designs, as mentioned late in the
timeline, but they're still using a -lot- of modified ESU stuff. A lot
of this is also waiting for me to sit down and design out their ships,
too...
> I'm in the middle of a crash course in Indian and regional history
Kipling's _Kim_ is required reading, and several of the Flashman books.
I
also liked Stirling's _The Peshawar Lancers_
Question, It may have been answered already.
Since India is right there next to the ESU, does that make the potential
competitors? If so, would a warming of the relations with the NAC seem more
effective (Far easier to work with the NAC in English which is still the
official business language in India).
> Ryan Gill wrote:
> Question, It may have been answered already.
> Since India is right there next to the ESU, does that make the
Currently I would say that India is on good terms with all three NAC nations.
Certainly the ties between Britain and India are strong, with people of Indian
decent making up 2.5% of the British population making them the largest of the
ethnic minority's. Also, with the war on terror, It looks like India and the
USA have gotten a lot more interested in each other (mutual distrust of
Pakistan being a major factor). Canada and India must also get along, the only
nation I can recall Canada really falling out with recently is Spain. Other
than that Canada seems to get on with everyone. A lot of business from Britian
(call centres and such) are being transferred to India at the moment. If one
were to assume that such economic and
political ties remained in 100+ years then even if the NAC and India
were not formal allies the mere potential threat of such a relationship may be
enough to deter the ESU from attacking India directly. As far as I am aware
India and China still have disputed borders after their border conflict of the
1950's, these coupled with a future India (as Noah describes it) projecting
her fleet into the Indian Ocean could create a simmering rift with the ESU.
The only problem is the next 100years, how does India stop the ESU, especially
when any potential allies in the pre or formed NAC have bigger fish to fry
(like rebuilding the USA and trying to convince several hundred million
Americans that the Red Coat is your friend...)
As for the English language, the American version is pretty much ensconced
as the business/cultural language of the entire planet, i.e.; 10 years
ago most EU documents were written in French, now pretty much all of them are
drafted in English.
> Certainly the ties between Britain and India are strong, with
Canadians of Indian decent are roughly the same percentage as in Britain, with
the 2001 census listing 713,330 out of a total Canadian population of
30,007,094. However, Canada also has: 74,015 of Pakastani origin, 61,315 of
Sri Lankan origin, 47,155 of Punjabi origion, and 39,075 of Tamil origin.
Adding all these together gives a total for the Indian subcontinent of
934,890, or about 3% of the Canadian population.
Canada has reasonably close relations with India and Pakistan. I know that in
the 80s and early 90s Canada had a better relationship with most of the
Commonwealth than Britain did due to Canada's views about South Africa. I
think it's quite safe to say that if India in the far future has a good
relatonship with Britain that it will also have a good relationship with
Canada, and thus the NAC in general.