Hi all
Stipulating that
1) Anyone _can_ fight anyone in the Tuffleyverse
2) There are no good guys
What would people define as being classic matchups? I'll take my guess at it,
but I'm interested to have other peoples opinions:
OUDF - Allies/Friendly: NAC, FCT, NSL, Swiss, NI - Enemies: ESU, IC
I assume this because of Earth based interests mostly. OUDF space presence
isn't terribly numerous and hence tends not to get fought over as much as
some.
NAC - Allies/Friendly: FCT, NSL, OUDF, NI, Swiss, RH - Enemies: ESU,
FSE, PAU, LLAR I list the RH amongst the allies due to a monarchic leaning. I
list the PAU as opposed principally on the strength of the fact they sometimes
work with the FSE.
NSL - Allies/Friendly: NAC, OUDF, Swiss, RH - Enemies: FSE, ESU
ESU - Allies/Friendly: LLAR, IF, IC, FSE - Enemies: RH, NAC, NSL, OUDF,
Japan, NI I'm not even sure the IC shouldn't be an enemy too. I think the ESU
is the big bad guy that almost everyone is scared of and with good reason!
FSE - Allies/Friendly: PAU, ESU, LLAR - Enemies: NAC, NSL, IF, NFR
NFR is the New French Republic
NI - Allies/Friendly: NAC, OUDF, FCT, Japan - Enemies: IF, IF, IF, and
IF
LLAR - Allies/Friendly: ESU, FSE - Enemies: NAC, FCT
PAU - Allies/Friendly: FSE - Enemies: NAC, RH, IF
IF is listed as an enemy because of clashes in E/NE Africa.
Did I miss anything? Anyone disagree particularly?
G'day Tom,
> OUDF - Allies/Friendly: NAC, FCT,
You're probably right, but I think its probably a bit more fluid then hard
"forever" allies/enemies (look at who's been who's buddy over the last
100+
yrs on Earth). Not that this should be taken with anything but a tonne of
salt, but Derek and I are mapping out a campaign where the NSL headbutts
with the FSE and ESU over some planets/resources which actually sit
inside a system claimed by the OU (so they're not exactly in a "put the
welcome
mat out" mood). It was a bit of an excuse for a free-for-all covering
the figs everyone had, but its probably not too far wide of the mark of things
that might happen a bit in the GZGverse.
Cheers
Beth
***
You're probably right, but I think its probably a bit more fluid then hard
"forever" allies/enemies
***
I know I certainly took Tom's comments that way; more so with the smaller
entities 'pandering' to one or another major depending how the winds go.
Course, I've taken the line which I believe is in the source that even the
majors have had falling outs on occasion.
The FSE officials ended up apologizing all over themselves for the destruction
of a Komarov by the SM's of a few HC's and CL's during a colony placement
dispute, but FSE officers smirk to this day. However, that's a story for
another day.
As far as the ESU being the big bad boys, though, I've taken more the tack
that, even though many on the list have stated the ESU's ships being as good a
balance as any major, that they are politically inept at best, and find
themselves a relatively easy target.
The FSE and NAC were always the grand manipulators, though mostly behind the
scenes, in my universe view.
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
Islamic Fed: allies FSE, ESU, IC, some PAU factions; enemies NAC, NI, PAU,
some ESU factions, plus anyone else close enough to get to. One reason I
defined the IF Navy as being short on FTL drives was to limit
who they could get to--otherwise they'd be attacking all over.
You had the IF listed as enemies of FSE--I don't think that's very
likely.
> OUDF - Allies/Friendly: NAC, FCT, NSL, Swiss, NI - Enemies: ESU, IC
"The OU has no friends, only interests."
Of course, there are various "special relationships". When the NAC want a team
to do Zero-G work, the OUDF's Australian Special Atmosphere Service is
used by choice, especially for a "plausibly deniable" mission.
Even if in a system far, far away, an OUDF Special Action Team is at that very
moment busy thoroughly trashing an NAC mining complex as the result of an
action
by that particular NAC-based firm.
It can get more complex than that: in one case, an NAC firm had its databanks
thoroughly erased (via OUDF plastic explosive....). No casualties. But the
insurance claim bankrupted an NSL Insurance firm, one of whose tentacles had
just taken by Force Majeur a small OU mining site. Which was not far away from
a joint
NSL-OU research station that carried on its business uninterrupted.
So the OUDF can be found at various times both as allies of convenience, or
temporary enemies, by nearly anyone. They never fight for pay as such, but the
OU carries grudges.
Exceptions: OUDF has been known to fight against Japanese Mercenaries, but
only as allies of other Japanese forces. OUDF has never been observed fighting
against New Israelis. The few occasions where they've come into contact,
they've staged a mutual withdrawal. OUDF has never been observed fighting
alongside Indonesian Commonwealth Forces, except against other Indonesian
Commonwealth forces. They rarely take prisoners under these circumstances, and
don't mind a few Friendly casualties as long as the Friendlies are all IC
troops. IAC and OUDF forces are definitely Allied, with ships of both fleets
(rarely) having mixed crews. OUDF has often been seen fighting alongside the
UN, and never against them.
So:
Declared Allies: IAC - though the OU is more friendly to the IAC than
vice-versa
Rumoured-to-be-Allies: NI, Japan, UN
Very Friendly: NAC, AE (relationship with AE is symbiotic rather than
friendly) Friendly: NSL, ITT, VC, FCT, "Vultures R Us" (Friendly Rivalry for
the Corporations rather than Friendship. Competition is cuthroat, but both
sides often lend each other a hand when lives are at stake, and money isn't.
But a Colt 44 beats 4 Aces)
Used-to-be-Friendly-but-currently-Neutral : FSE ( due to Nouvelle
Caledonie Terrorists)
Used-to-be-Neutral-but-currently-Hostile: PAC (they suspect the OU
helped the NAC against them recently. Or so said the FSE...)
Used-to-be-Hostile-but-currently-Neutral: ESU (Money Talks)
Neutral: Pretty much everyone else. Hostile as a matter of policy, but not
neccessarily practice: IC
On a geopolitical scale, the OU has few if any enemies. But in the SG level,
nearly anything goes.
From: "Beth Fulton" <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au>
> You're probably right, but I think its probably a bit more fluid then
Let's see: 1960: Australian and British forces fight an undeclared war against
Indonesian regulars in Borneo and Sarawak.
1993: Australian Forces conduct joint exercises with Elite Indonesian KAUPAS
paratroop forces, in Australia. Australians are not notably impressed with
their professionalism, which falls far short of their usual exercise partners,
the US Marines. The Australian press bags the Government for the odious human
rights record of these forces too, while praising them for the welcome sign of
improved relations.
1999: In order to stiop the continuing wholesale massacres, Australian armed
forces enter East Timor, formerly a fiefdom of KAUPAS. KAUPAS, much to the
relief of the Australians, is particularly uninterested in being remotely near
anywhere where there's Aussies on the Warpath with loaded weapons. Other
Indonesian forces
On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:46:52 -0500 "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
writes:
> Islamic Fed: allies FSE, ESU, IC, some PAU factions; enemies NAC, NI,
Widely disbursed forces plus a multiple front war that would have made
Hitler become a pacifist would soon solve that - at least for a while.
1) I agree with with Beth! That's why I started out suggesting anyone could
fight anyone. But certain matchups have been suggested by history and others
by geography.
2) Thanks for the IF contribution Chris. I put the FSE as enemies of the IF
because I figured combining the sporadic French concept of manifest
destiny/empire, the history of france in its colonial powers, and the
IF's strong Muslim aspect, they'd be at best neutral (or more likely they'd
squabble some times, have open fights others, and sometimes work together).
Enemy is perhaps too strong a word.
3) Undoubtedly the ESU is probably the easiest target (though the IF can
probably be goaded rather easily too). The FSE and the NAC are probably great
manipulators... that fits well with history, although both can get lost in
their own scheming. But the ESU probably have a bit of a need for an "external
enemy" and for territorial expansion so there is probably a constant push to
aggressively expand.
4) I suspect that the NAC, FSE, NSL and ESU being the big-boys on the
block in space have probably trod rather unattentively on just about every
other smaller power at one point or another. There are no white hats. Just
lots of sort of grey ones.:)
I was just working out this list so I could put together semi-logical
battles/campaigns and so I could order more figs to provide appropriate
enemy forces.
> NAC - Allies/Friendly: FCT, NSL, OUDF, NI, Swiss, RH - Enemies: ESU,
It's only 30 years since the FCT split from the NAC so relations are probably
cool. Also, if current population trends continue the FCT will be mostly
hispanic and possibly (but by no means certainly) friendly to the LLAR.
Japan should be on the friendly list. And probably the ScanFed as well.
Swiss are probably maintaining their historic neutrality - though an
understanding with the NAC would be (a) good for business and (b) a deterrent
to both the FSE and NSL from moving in on Switzerland. The same may well go
for Holland.
> NSL - Allies/Friendly: NAC, OUDF, Swiss, RH - Enemies: FSE, ESU
Again ScanFed probably friendly.
> ESU - Allies/Friendly: LLAR, IF, IC, FSE - Enemies: RH, NAC, NSL,
Based on the minis the ESU seem to have sold missile launchers to the IF and
PAU. Whatever that counts for.
I can see the ESU and IC being hostile - they must have clashed when
both were grabbing chunks of SE Asia. Both powers seem to be rampantly
expansionist.
> LLAR - Allies/Friendly: ESU, FSE - Enemies: NAC, FCT
As noted above the FCT is more likely to be latino than redneck. But I suppose
the NAC could have carried out a bit of ethnic cleansing at some point. LLAR
and FCT probably both have similar reasons to dislike the NAC. Whether that
makes them friendly towards each other is another matter.
> > think the ESU is the big bad guy that almost everyone is scared of
NAC propoganda. I think the ESU is just like any other nation in the
game -
sure, with a different system of government and a different way of doing
things, but just trying to achieve their own ends. Just because they piss the
"western" nations off doesn't mean they're bad!
JS
---
From: Barclay, Tom <tomb@bitheads.com>
Date: Thursday, November 23, 2000 10:15
Subject: [HIST] conflicts in the GZGverse
> What would people define as being classic matchups?
I've verified my reply against FT, MT & DS, but I believe that some of my data
is from SG background materials I've seen replicated
on the web. If I've cited anything non-canon as an unqualified fact,
please pick me up on it.
> I'll take my guess at it, but I'm interested to have other peoples
Deduction: The ESU was the main sponsor of the IC and the LLAR because the
other minor powers launched starfaring craft before the ESU did (in 2072). The
OU has common cause with JP (Japan) re the containment of the IC on Earth.
Speculation: Pre-OU units may have helped JP defend the Gilderstein
Foundation in 2050. The OU took advantage of the Mercenary War
(2128 - 2132) to reduce IC mercenary units in small-scale actions
whenever the opportunity presented itself. The OU may have friendly relations
with the LLAR as a result.
Observation: The Swiss mercenaries employed by the LLAR to raid the IC's
Manilla depot in 2129 ended up killing a lot of Japanese.
(This is one of the early 22nd-century incidents I've bookmarked as
driving the formation of the UNSC.)
The status of the Japanese seems to be very much up in the air. They appear to
have started out as NAC clients, but that's reading a lot into the name of the
NAC Nagisa system lost to the ESU in 2177. Will
we possibly see Turtle Boat-style ship models one day in the future...?
Question: Is there any canonical evidence beyond enemy-of-my-enemy
to involve the FCT or the NSL?
> NAC
I find the FCT secession very hard to understand. We know very little about
the circumstances other than that the NAC opposed the 2159 declaration then
launched some token strikes before accepting it.
Observation: Steve ventures the theory that the FCT is more latino than
redneck, but if this is the case there must be some powerful motive dividing
them from the LLAR. The NAC chose not to crush
the uprising (unlike the FSE's reaction to the proto-NFR revolt in 2133)
and could easily conquer New Pasadena if it were necessary. Allowing the LLAR
back to Earth to incite the entire Americas to revolt would create just such a
necessity.
The FCT fought alongside the NAC at Reinhold in 2187, but this was against the
Kra'vak. By then even the ESU and the NAC had joined forces to battle the
alien menace.
> I list the RH amongst the allies due to a monarchic leaning.
I have the RH down as firm NSL clients after the EC created the RH by
objecting to further westward expansion by the Chinese in 2047.
The RH were attacked by the ESU in both the Second (2145-2157)
and Third (2165-2185) Solar Wars, whereupon the NSL and the NAC
joined in to contain the ESU.
> I list the PAU as opposed principally on the strength of the fact they
The PAU lost Grand Lahou to the NAC's Operation Dryland in 2148. They
attempted to retake it in 2150 and again in 2154. Against that, we have a
picture of an Avalon getting trashed by the Kra'vak at New Lusaka in 2183 on
MT pg 24. I take this to be the PAU Kinshasa, but it could be one of the two
UNSC survey cruisers lost off Lagos IV earlier in the same year.
> From 2163, the IF is recorded as being increasingly hostile to both the
> NSL
Add IC to the list of enemies after their mercenaries took Salzburg for the
ESU in 2183.
Question: Again, do we have any canonical evidence to involve the OU or the
Swiss here? I tend to view a lot of the minor blocs and independent nations as
regional powers, but we don't really have enough information to move away from
this admittedly geocentric view.
> ESU
The IC provided many mercenary contingents for the Third Solar War. So did the
SK (Saeed Khalifate), finally kicking the RH out of Tsitsihar in 2183.
The PAU joined in the Second Solar War, apparently as FSE allies.
The ESU clashed with the IF in 2123 over an anti-Islamic pogrom in
India.
Deduction: If the truth about Sumani IV (2173) ever came out, you can bet that
the IF are NOT considered friendly. This could explain how the SK got on the
ESU payroll, since they and the IF are the original proponents of "enemy of my
enemy".
Speculation: In the IC's war with the OU (2110-2112), many ESU
"advisors" were killed and their equipment and tactics shown to be
inferior. (Hey, I'm just a vacuum-head guessing without even a copy
of SG here.) The ESU bears a grudge as a result.
> FSE
Question: why put the IF on the hostile list? As far as I can see, the FSE is
the only major power they haven't fallen out with.
> NI
Depending on how closely you link the NI on Epsilon Indi to the Gilderstein
Foundation, there may be grounds for bad blood between NI and the IC. Then
again, Israeli mercenaries were working for the IC in 2131 (until they managed
to get their contracts revoked).
Deduction: presumably NI doesn't like the SK either.
Question: how does the FCT fit in here?
> LLAR
Whilst the IC have fought for the same employers, I wouldn't think that the
LLAR would have forgiven them for the Mercenary War.
Also add the NSL to the list of enemies for Kayleigh in 2181. Both the NAC and
the NSL suffered considerable embarrassment at the result.
Speculation: If the FCT have rejected diplomatic approaches by the LLAR then
there probably is considerable resentment since the recovery of their
terrestrial holdings is probably one of the founding principles of the LLAR
state. The area of the Americas occupied by the FCT is also the original bone
of contention between the NAC and the LLAR.
> PAU
The PAU also clashed with the IF in 2128 over off-planet resources.
View the following in non-proportional text:
(e.g. Windows users copy and paste to Notepad)
RH PAU OU NSL NI NAC KNG LLAR JP IF IC FSE FCT ESU
UNSC F F C C F C F N F C F C F C
ESU H C N H N H N C>N N H F F N
FCT N N N F N F F D N N N N
FSE H C N H N H R N>F N F F
IC N N H D R>F H F H R F
IF N H N N I H N N N
JAP N N F N F C N H
LLAR N N F H N H H
KNG N N N F N F
NAC F H N F F
NI N N F N
NSL C H N
OU N N
PAU H
Implacable: always at war
Hostile: frequently at war
Dispute: ongoing dispute or grudge
Rival: in competition
Neutral: no real dealings
Friendly: have fought in the same cause
Client: customer / client state
The UNSC line is a bit strange since I have listed it as a client of all the
nations I presumed to be original contributors (i.e. ship builders). All other
governments with terrestrial holdings are friendly, while those without UN
seats are merely neutral. Now the UN has its own yards, things may be
different.
From: "Nathan" <Nathan_at_Spring_Grove_UK@email.msn.com>
> Deduction: The ESU was the main sponsor of the IC and the LLAR
I really should publish my "Secret History of the OU".
It explains a few things - like the Meekatharra Impact ( or: the
Gilderstein Foundation finds out that experimentation on Earth
is too bloody dangerous - the "asteroid impact" was a cover story).
AEBrain said:
> I really should publish my "Secret History of the OU".
But then it wouldn't be secret.
> It explains a few things - like the Meekatharra Impact ( or: the
That's easy enough. They were dropped off by AE survey ships. SOP.
> Let's just say your speculations are spot on, they just don't go far
Meaning the OU is way out there. In either sense.
> So the OUDF can be found at various times both as allies of
You going to publish stats for the Wombat of Retribution?
Got to see one of those Crocodile Hunter shows (is this guy for real?) over
the weekend. They were relocating a wombat to better quarters. That little guy
was mean. At little slow, but mean.
[quoted original message omitted]
From: "Nathan Pettigrew" <nathanp@microsoft.com>
> Got to see one of those Crocodile Hunter shows (is this guy for real?)
over
> the weekend. They were relocating a wombat to better quarters. That
No idea what show you're talking about, but odds are he is for real.
Wombats have really ferocious digging claws, but are usually quite
> --- Nathan Pettigrew <nathanp@microsoft.com> wrote:
Not for long!
(and I only saw the first few minutes.)
Bye for now,
> Got to see one of those Crocodile Hunter shows (is this guy for real?)
He is. There's a parody of him on Sluggy Freelance:
http://www.sluggy.com
and go back a couple of weeks, IIRC.