LOL!
just 24 pounds of individual small arm, requiring two basic loads of ammo,
that becomes a short awkward club when it malfunctions under real field
conditions in the hands of a real soldier....
just 24 pounds plus of weapon and ammo, in added to the poundage ready being
toted around by private schitt in the way, anti armor weapons, hand grenades,
smoke grenade, anti personnel mines, trip flares, star clusters, maybe a base
plate or mortar tube, as well as ammo for same, of clothing boots, web gear,
body armor, helmet, personal commo gear, vision gear, CBR mask and atropine
injector, first aide kit, water, food, entrencing tool, combat knife, maybe
backpack radio unit, as well as ammo carried to keep the SAW and LMG in
fodder......
yah. the ideal individual weapon for the US soldiers and marines of the 21st
century......
thanks but no thanks!
every soldier i have talked to about this weapon either burst out laughing, or
cringes when thinking of all of the potential problems that this little gem
represents.
Don't discount the army's latest wonderweapon just yet. If they meet thier
design goals, that is.
It's the full combat load of ammo that will make it a honker. Also note that
the weapon is only to be issued to 4 troops out of a squad of 9. How much to
you want to bet the other 5 guys are going to be the ones carrying the mortar
stuff. (Or is mortar stuff already distributed around the entire sqd?).
I also noticed that the "excused" the weight of the weapon by stating all the
things that they already attach to weapons for different situations... but how
many times have you seen all of those things attached at ONE TIME? My guess is
never...
My overall reaction is "Gee whiz! Wow! Neat! Can you really make it work?"
--Flak
How does the OICW system weight compare to the current soldier's weapons?
1) OICWs weight fielding goal of 14 pounds is 10 to 30% less weight than
the current M16/M4/M203 systems. When comparable features such as
Thermal Weapon Sight, Optic Sight, Rails, Aiming Light, Leaf Sight and Laser
are
added, the standard infantry soldier carries 15 to 19 pounds. This weight
includes only 1 (30 round) magazine of the 5.56mm and 1 round of 40mm HE ammo.
2) OICW's 20mm HE round weighs only 1/4 pound compared to the M203Âs
40mm round weight of 1/2 pound, a 50% comparison weight savings
with substantially more effectiveness.
3) 18 rounds of 40mm ammunition in a soldier's vest weigh 9 pounds.
If a soldier was carrying 18 rounds of 20mm the weight is 4 1/2 pounds.
On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:20:56 -0600 (CST)
> DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
> LOL!
> --- Tim Gray <tgray@adacplastics.com> wrote:
> issued to 4 troops out of a squad of 9. How much to
Mortar stuff???
> I also noticed that the "excused" the weight of the
Most of the time I don't see squat attached to
anything but an M-4.
john, i was referring to members of the weapons platoon who would have to tote
the 81mm tube, baseplate, ammo and etc., in addition to their own weapons and
ammo in my message about the HTWIW.
i think he was referring to this in the first half of his message.
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:03:52 -0800 (PST)
> John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Tim Gray <tgray@adacplastics.com> wrote:
Yeah, someone had mentioned a mortar baseplate, ammo, T&E, etc... that would
make such a burdensome weapon as the OICW even more impractical.
> > I also noticed that the "excused" the weight of the
Agreed. It was rare to see anything, and even then, all I ever saw was SRT
(Military Police SWAT) with some scopes, ACOGs and occasionally some
11B's in the woods with night-sights.
> John
> At 11:34 AM -0500 1/31/02, Tim Gray wrote:
One key factor about the OICW is that the 5.56 module can be separated from
the 20mm Module and used separately by adding a small stock and iron site
component. The 5.56 module is for all practical purposes the majority of a G36
with external changes to the chassis. It would take standard M16 magazines
too. Troops requiring a temporary lighter component would be able to detach
the larger section and use just the 5.56 unit. Also note, the whole OICW
component is meant for those men in the squad that would be using the 40mm
grenade component on their M4's anyhow.
The fellows toting around the mortar wouldn't likely be kitted out with an
OICW as well.
> Agreed. It was rare to see anything, and even then, all I ever saw
Front like combat soldiers tend to have them. If they had the ability
to handle light anti-armor rounds as well, they'd be happier I think.
Remember the whole reason of the OICW is that it reduces the need for
other anti-armor rounds and gives a better ranged grenade capability.
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> section and use just the 5.56 unit. Also note, the
1)In real combat units[*] we use M-16s, with a handful
of M-4s. In my current unit, it's PL, PSG, etc. In
Germany we had more, so we issued them to vehicle
crewmen as well. The M-4 is a carbine. It has a role
as the weapon of people who have things to do in a firefight other than put
rounds onto the enemy. Now
they want to take away the M-16 entirely and replace
it with a carbine with a high-tech grenade launcher
that probably won't work anyway.
> Front like combat soldiers tend to have them. If
Right. A 20mm low velocity grenade? That's going to kill what, a BRDM maybe??
Yipee. I'm just not enthused or convinced that it would represent a major
improvement over a 40mm grenade.
> Remember the whole reason of the OICW is that it
You'll still need AT-4s to kill anything bigger than a
BRDM. And I ain't worried about BRDMs because if the enemy's scouts aren't
dead by the time I get to the fight, someone's done something deeply wrong.
> --- Tim Gray <tgray@adacplastics.com> wrote:
> Yeah, someone had mentioned a mortar baseplate,
Oh, I doubt mortar teams are going to EVER see this toy.
> John Atkinson wrote:
> 1)In real combat units[*] we use M-16s, with a handful
I am SO going to ID myself as a civvie here - what is the M-4?
In my current unit, it's PL, PSG, etc. In
> Germany we had more, so we issued them to vehicle
If it ain't fixed, it must be broken, right? The Gee Whiz syndrome strikes
again.
> > Front like combat soldiers tend to have them. If
Just from casual observation, I had a funny feeling that a REDUCTION of
launched grenade size was a BAD thing. I'm glad to see I'm not entirely off on
that count.
> > Remember the whole reason of the OICW is that it
Again, just my UNQUALIFIED observation, but it sounds from the conversation
that the 20mm grenades are BARELY anti-armor capable. I apply this
concept
to the rest of life, it seems applicable to military issues as well -
just BARELY being able to do something seems like a bad goal to set,
especially since things always tend to get harder.
> John
Shouldn't non-REAL-combat units get at least a SMATTERING of Combat
arms, in case that "Something deeply wrong" happens?
2B^2
> John Atkinson wrote:
So what whizbang innovation are they cooking up for Mortar teams? Or are they
exempt from the "Newer must be better" syndrome?
2B^2
> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I am SO going to ID myself as a civvie here - what
It's a carbine-style version of the M-16. Much
shorter barrel, little folding stock. Rather looks like (and weighs about the
same as) the Mattel version
of the M-16 I had when I was 8.
> If it ain't fixed, it must be broken, right? The
That's the story of the past 50 years. What happened to the innate
conservatism of the US Army of the
_last_ century, when we were using rolling-block
Springfields way past the expiration date?
> Just from casual observation, I had a funny feeling
Well, diameter is the main controlling factor in how much explosive you can
stuff into it. I don't know the math (OO will probably provide an obligingly
abstruse thesis on the mathematics of the Monroe
effect--I'm just a user, not a scientist) but the
short version is that it works about like you think it should. The more
explosives you stuff into it, the more energy gets directed into the jet, and
the more armor it penetrates.
> Shouldn't non-REAL-combat units get at least a
Yeah, but there aren't enough sloping-forehead
professional killer types to fill the combat arms units, much less babysitting
pogues.
> --- DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
Pictures of the M-4:
http://user.icx.net/~jonesgil/M4INDEX.HTM
Compare to a picture of the M-16, just for reference:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/systems/dvic534.jpg
> --- Flak Magnet <flakmagnet72@yahoo.com> wrote:
Don't believe everything you read on the internet.
M-177 != M-4.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m16.htm
Compares the M-16A2 and M-4 weapons.
D'oh. I just looked for a collapsible stock. The "good enough for gov't work"
approach.
--Flak
> On Thu, 2002-01-31 at 21:50, John Atkinson wrote:
> At 4:37 PM -0800 1/31/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Likely folks are supposed to keep their M-4s. This would replace the
full M-4 set with the underslung M203.
> > Front like combat soldiers tend to have them. If
The difference is that it's supposed to be direct fire. Rather than having to
lob it in a high arc (ala a howitzer) you aim direct at your target.
> You'll still need AT-4s to kill anything bigger than a
Likely several guys peppering a BRDM, BTR or anything else that is relatively
light will mission kill it. Its also likey to make the infantry really really
want to debuss.
On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:37:46 -0800 (PST) John Atkinson
> <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> writes:
<snip>
> You'll still need AT-4s to kill anything bigger than a
Even this ex-zoomie understands this.
I always approach the 'high tech answer to everything' with trepidation
-
OICW, GIS, whatever...
Gracias,
On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:50:21 -0800 "Brian Bilderback"
> <bbilderback@hotmail.com> writes:
<snip>
> Shouldn't non-REAL-combat units get at least a SMATTERING of Combat
Three letters:
PDW - Personal Defense Weapon.
If you have to use it, use it on the clown who got you in this mess first.
Think M-16 round in a mini bull pup configuration that you (supposedly)
can have available as you do your 'non-combat' or 'combat support' job
and find you really are in a combat situation and it won't get in the way.
Unfortunately that means yours or the enemy's...
Beats a knife. Maybe. A traditional war club might be as useful.
Gracias,
> At 4:50 PM -0800 1/31/02, Brian Bilderback wrote:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m16.htm
> If it ain't fixed, it must be broken, right? The Gee Whiz syndrome
The primary motivator is to reduce the need for the M4 as a complete kit and
increase usefulness. Its a selective replacement of the
M203/M16 combo.
The 20mm in OICW is not unlike the 25mm in OCSW.
> Just from casual observation, I had a funny feeling that a REDUCTION
Well, the basic idea is that instead of the grenade detonating
because it hit the ground it detonates at the target you aim at _or_
when you designate a red force team that are behind defilade and set it to go
off at their backs as it passes their cover. It puts all of the fragments into
the area around it, rather that half into the ground. ie It air bursts next to
them in something of an enfilade.
> From FAS's web site**
Effectiveness against personnel and light armor targets, given a hit, will be
greater than those of the M433 High Explosive Dual Purpose cartridge fired
from the M203 Grenade Launcher and the M855 cartridge fired from the M16A2
rifle. Specific goals include a 0.5 probability of incapacitation to 300
meters (point target) and a 0.2 probability of incapacitation to 300 meters
(defilade target) in FY99.
**
Take a look at ATK's web site on the system.
http://www.atk.com/homepage/products/
> Again, just my UNQUALIFIED observation, but it sounds from the
I'd wonder that. The ability to get it right where you want it helps.
> Shouldn't non-REAL-combat units get at least a SMATTERING of Combat
They do. They have Carbines. The push has gone as far as PDW's and such in
some armies.
[quoted original message omitted]
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 04:51:53PM -0800, Brian Bilderback wrote:
Laser mortars, man! It's the way of the future! And it's only twice as heavy
as the 81mm, including the MicroCray that does beam collimation, and it's not
so great at that whole indirect fire thing, but it's a laser so it must be
great... ow, this crack pipe is burning my hands.
[Not aimed at anyone in particular.]
Actually, this civillian thinks enemy recon units will be actively trying to
turn up in deeply wrong places. So I suppose I'm in favor of
at least minimal anti-armor capability pretty much everywhere.
> Glenn M Wilson wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:37:46 -0800 (PST) John Atkinson
> At 10:51 PM -0500 1/31/02, Glenn M Wilson wrote:
I'd rather have a PDW that I could carry around on my every day
Military truck drving job rather than leaving my M-16 in my cab. And
a PDW beats an 9mm side arm anyday. Specifically, the P-90 is what
I'd rather have as a PDW.
OI!
AS A FORMER, KNUCKLE DRAGGING, SLOPING FOREHEAD, PROFESSION -AL
KILLER, I AM FLATTERED THAT SOME ONE FINALLY REALIZES WHAT A RARE AND VALUBLE
SPECIES WE ARE!
REMF'S NEED TO BE ARMED, of course, but with the exception of the engineers
and the military police types who often find themselves performing grunt
functions when the feces hits the fan, i do not see the need for first line
combat weaponry for them....
BUT, then i am prejudiced, as i have fought both as a grunt and as an military
policeman performing grunt duties, and have seen engineers doing the same
thing to on a regular basis.
And this moe new, moe wunnerful, moe expensive, whether it works or not, is a
headjob originating in the pentagon where project officers and staff careers
rise or fall with the success or failure of the project.
i would love to take this latest bunch of civilian bozos and their
military counterparts (they were on THC or TLC last year) from la-la
land who are now touting more humane non lethat warfare weapons into a real
kill or be killed firefight....
(of course, i will lead from the rear and satety of a high tech
command track, off shore vessel, orbiting aircraft, CONUS war room, etc, while
offering them useful advice and orders!)
against mere 7th world idjits with AKs or bolt action rifles, grenades,
bows, spears, swords, knives, and clubs to combat them with glue-guns,
laserlights, capture nets, very long range stun darts using drugs, or shock
darts using electricity, gas sprayers, water guns, beanbag blasters, tennis
ball launchers, flower launchers bad langauge dispensers, and anything else
that is utterly ridicoulous to even consider arming a combat soldier with for
"humane warfare".
it would be a slaughter! scratch one mob of overweight, out of shape, near
sighted theoritcal experts!
and any brasshats and flying/floating/roll -ing armor plated desks that
think this is the way forward!
and politicians who have avoided pulling a trigger who think this is the way
to go!
(and i am a four-eyed crippled up, fatman now days!)
if it works, it ain't broke, and doan need fiddling with.....
maybe. maybe not.
i have a clear ecollection of those poor SOBs in the weapons platoon sruggling
to move mortars, base plates, and limited ammo about in the RVN.
this was in addition to their own rifles, pistols, grenade launchers,
grenades, ammo, water, etc.
combat necessities have a way of changing TOEs.
and when we operated in areas when neither artillery or airsupport was useful,
the mortars went with us.
in the grunt platoons, when we expected to encounter an VC/NVA base
, the old 3.5" rocket launcher or 90mm recoilless rifle with ammo joined the
grunt platoon weapons and ammo load....
and the marines toted 60mm mortars almost every step they took, i have
been told by ex-marines.
> At 10:40 AM -0600 2/1/02, DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
[snip]
Have you seen the FN P-90? Its FN after all. It must work at least
moderately well as all of their other products.
One thing I am curious about, how do you carry your rifle while carrying all
that other stuff? The M16 doesn't have a sling and this OINK thing doesn't
even have a carry handle.
> Ryan Gill wrote:
[snip]
> Have you seen the FN P-90? Its FN after all. It must work at least
Plus it looks Bitchin'....
But doesn't it use some weird funky calibre?
2B^2
> At 11:57 AM -0500 2/1/02, Roger Books wrote:
American Troops tend to use rifle slings. Some have a really fancy 3 point
sling that holds the weapon on the back but still at the ready.
> At 9:03 AM -0800 2/1/02, Brian Bilderback wrote:
Yep, 5.7x28mm. Its very very similar to 5.7mm Johnson 5.7x28mm
http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/ammo/index.htm
5.7mm Johnson
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/wmmj57mm.html
the SS190 will go through a PASGT helmet at 200 M. It also penetrates 48
Layers of Kevlar at that range as well.
715 m/s or 2345.9 ft/sec.
And FN makes a pistol that shoots the same cartridge, the FN Five-SeveN.
http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/57/index.htm
FN P90
http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/data/concept.htm
For a while one could buy M1 Carbines in 5.7mm Johnson.
http://home.kscable.com/duncanlong/guns/m1.htm
Dawg said:
> against mere 7th world idjits with AKs <snip> to combat them with
<grin> Hey! fighting them with me would *definitely* not be humane or
nonlethal. I tend to take the position that "small nukes now are better than
big problems later"
NO!
you are all wet!
laser mortars! '
never work!
go for mole mortars from the 40K squat armory!
much more wonderful!
> Ryan M Gill wrote:
> Yep, 5.7x28mm. Its very very similar to 5.7mm Johnson
Very interesting. I'm at work, so I can't look too closely at weapons web
sites (especially while mumbling to myself). How comparable is it's
performance to, say, the MP-5 series? Would it be an appropriate option
for
Spec Ops, and if so, as which - an SMG, an AR, or a hybrid?
2B^2
> At 10:19 AM -0800 2/1/02, Brian Bilderback wrote:
The ballistics are far faster and offer better penetration than the 9mm and 45
based MP5s. They don't have the same frangiblility as those do. I'd like to
see ballistic gelatin tests. However, given the penchant for Spec ops types to
go for head shots, I'd not give much in the way of odds of survival of one of
these rounds ripping through one's skull.
The Suppressed version is very useful for special ops. The point man on the
entry team that went into the Japanese Embassy in Peru was
armed with a P90. The P-90 is somewhere between the pistol round
length and the rifle round length of the M16. Its in the same weird ground
that the shorter M16 round was when it was introduced folloing the long time
use of the full length.30 caliber rounds (7.62 and
30.06).
> Ryan M Gill wrote:
> The ballistics are far faster and offer better penetration than the
Thanks, that's exactly the info I needed.
2B^2
From: <DAWGFACE47@webtv.net>
> against mere 7th world idjits with AKs or bolt action rifles,
Scenario:
First line consists of 6-year olds, some armed, some human bombs, some
not. Second line consists of mothers with babies in arms, mixed
> --- Roger Books <books@jumpspace.net> wrote:
Slung. The M-16 does indeed have sling swivels.
There's one built into the buttstock and another under the barrel, even with
the front sight post.
> --- Michael Llaneza <maserati@earthlink.net> wrote:
This soldier thinks enemy recon units are supposed to
be dead--that's what _we_ have recon units for. But
it's pretty irrelevant--OICW is supposed to be issued
to Infantrymen, not pogues. So you're actually
arguing for issuing AT-4s to pogues, which we do, in
great profusion.
> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:
> Question from another civvie:
Shorter barrel, which equals lower muzzle velocity, which equals a shorter
range and less accuracy. It's better than a submachine gun, but considerably
less accurate than a rifle over 200m or so. Oh, and slightly less stopping
power.
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Well, the basic idea is that instead of the grenade
You know, we just had a discussion wherein it was claimed that safeties on
pistols are bad because people get too nervous to use them properly in combat.
Now you want some dumb 18-year old private to lase a
target, adjust his computer and act as a mini artillery piece? Bullshit!
> They do. They have Carbines. The push has gone as
Actually, they carry rifles in the US Army. Not
enough M-4s to go around. And they have a number of
SAWs and M-240s as well.
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Likely folks are supposed to keep their M-4s. This
No, it's supposed to replace the M-16. The M-4 is not
in use as the primary weapon except in SOF units.
> The difference is that it's supposed to be direct
Assuming your laser, your computer, and your
high-speed ninja electronics fuze all three work.
> Likely several guys peppering a BRDM, BTR or
I don't want the infantry to debus. I want it to stay in the back of it's
track where I can kill the track
and the whole squad with 1 well-placed AT-4.
On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:54:17 -0500 Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com>
writes:
> At 10:40 AM -0600 2/1/02, DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
No, but if it works really well, say half as well as promoted, that would be
wonderful (and a first in some ways)!
As an active USAF medic (7 years, 3 months, 12 days) and a USAR type for 3
years (76Yankee although they kept telling me I was the acting Armorer
[See * ] ) I would have appreciated a PDW that actually could 'stop'
(such a nice euphemism for kill) an enemy soldier attacking my location.
M16's *are* awkward true. Difficult to work on a plane, a truck or a
patient while trying to keep track of a weapon the size of an M-16 from
what I understand. I don't think it would be practical, sooner or later you
would start putting it somewhere "near by" and not have it close when you need
it.
One of my NCO's was in RVN and on arrival was issued a.38, a booklet on how to
use and clean same, 6 loose rounds and two speed loaders. He promptly put it
in the armory (since he had never fired one) and traded
'some stuff' to a Marine for an "extra" M-16. Said it was awkward
keeping track of it but it came in handy during Tet when he actually fired it
at some rather reluctant VC at intervals until the regular (or in his words
"real") combat troops showed up.
Gracias,
any military force, confronted with such a situation, that is unable to
retreat, would be justifiiable in using lethat force to protect the lives of
the soldiers under attack.
any police force, with officers under attack in such a situation and with no
retreat possible would also be legal using lethal force.
your right to survival supercedes their right to survival if they are
attacking you or threatening your life.
and they most assuredly would be.
i would rather put my fate into the hand of a military court for shooting in
defense of self and mates, then let these idiots get close
enough to hurt me/mine.
ditto for a jury trial.
combat is not a normal environment, and sometimes actions are required that
might cause night horrors for years afterwards.
war is horrible, abnormal.
there is no good war, but there is bad war. what you describe is bad war.
also, even with the use of non-lethals, this situation would result in
the deaths and injuries to many in the first and second ranks due to
trampling, suffacation, drowning, being shot by accident by mates weapons,
blown up by armed, dropped hand grenades, etc.
and then there would the killed /wounded inflicted on the first 2
groups by the armed, attackers who fight inspite of threats to their own
forces.
this scenario is the wet dream of the anti-miliary folks, rabid
paficists, politicians with their own caring aggendas, and CNN.
my thoughts. i am sure that others ave their own thoughts as well
as an after thought, i suggest those hopped up gunmen and any other idiots
that rush attack task force ranger in somalia probably cause the deaths of
thousands of bystanders as well as combatants.
this is the closest i know of to your scenario.
maybe the anticipated fanatical japanese defense of the home islands by both
military and civilians.
From: Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com>
> One of my NCO's was in RVN and on arrival was issued a .38, a
I can just see a FMAS game:
"Okay, Murphy, fire your SAW at enemy infantry in the treeline." "Sarge, this
is Murphy, uh, we don't have a SAW, exactly." "You don't...what? Where is it?"
"We....lost it. Yeah, we lost it....night before last." Long pause. "Murphy,
this is Sarge. Knowing you as I do, I wonder, did you, just possibly, happen
to find, say, anything interesting while you were looking for your SAW?
Something that might have distracted you from the twenty two hundred credits
worth of government property that you were responsible for, so to speak?"
"Well, funny you should ask that, Sarge, you know, now that you
mention it, we were billeted in with some panzergrens, and they've--"
"Murph, I ain't <deleted> got all day here."
"Well, Sarge, it didn't look like it belonged to anyone, see, and--"
"Murphy." "Right, Sarge, well, it's a plasma gun."
"A plas--Murphy, do you even know how to *use* a <deleted> plasma
gun?"
"Oh yeah, Sarge! Trooper of Fortune had an article in--"
"Then will you **shut*up*and*<deleted>*shoot!"**
On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:10:21 +1100 "Alan and Carmel Brain"
> <aebrain@austarmetro.com.au> writes:
It's called Peace and it's a rare and cherished item.
In your scenario it's not peace.
It may not be declared war (when's the last time *that* was done?) but it is
definitely not a crowd of Christmas shoppers. The threat of deadly
force (those bombs/guns) takes it out of the level of crowd control.
They are the ones forfeiting their rights to be treated as
non-combatants
> The US Army has already been faced with similar situations, schoolkids
Or your mind.
> I've been told by someone in the Australian armed forces that when
Speaking strictly theoretically of course:
Sometimes you have to accept the cards dealt are rotten with all options
morally unacceptable and *the mission* doesn't allow pulling back or nice
behavior and then, God Forbid, you call in the artillery strike because *they*
won't know what is happening until afterwards. And they can blame it on you.
Sometimes that's what leaders have to do. It's not fair but combat isn't about
fair. It's about staying alive, keeping your comrades alive and maybe, along
the way, winning the conflict.
Sometimes war sucks and sometimes the behavior that passes for "operations
short of war" is worse.
It's better when it's a game.
Gracias,
On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 18:48:30 -0800 (PST) John Atkinson
> <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> writes:
Assumes you are issued one.
Believe it or not, at least one USAF AP (Air Police) who was in RVN reports he
was told, "You don't need those. Use the handle on top to carry it. Or use
both hands. Or leave it in the vehicle." [shrug]
Gracias,
> --- Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com> wrote:
> >Slung. The M-16 does indeed have sling swivels.
> Assumes you are issued one.
I own two, plus a SAW sling. But then, I'm a sapper. We tend to acquire
extras.
On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:26:20 -0500 "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
writes:
> From: Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com>
Okay, I'm a sicko. I laughed so hard I almost passed out. I want to play in
this game...
> At 7:09 PM -0800 2/1/02, John Atkinson wrote:
As opposed to a spotter keying in a code and lasing a target. Or a mortarman
adjusting fire in the correct direction in a battle? Or a grenadier giving the
correct windage? Or a LT reading his GPS unit, correctly identifying a target
and
> Actually, they carry rifles in the US Army. Not
Yep full sized M-16's. That fits real nice in the fighting
compartment of that M-1 Abrams. Right in there next to the driver.
And the Gunner doesn't have a problem at all of getting to his M-16
when getting out does he?
Also note, "some armies". The US isn't adopting the PDW concept as far as I
know. Other armies. Some have adopted them for spec ops due to more compact
size and higher magazine capacity.
But you're right. FN doesn't know anything about predicting the prevailing
winds of armament technology. They were completely wrong in their prediction
of the general adoption of 7.62x51mm and the design of the FN Mag. And their
FN Minimi is completely off base for what the US or any other nation needed
when they did their bid for the weapon.
> At 7:13 PM -0800 2/1/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Ok, sorry, M203 rifle combo arms. ie
> Assuming your laser, your computer, and your
Hmm. Copperhead. Hellfire. MFSS. Javelin. AN/TVQ-2. Things are
getting more sophisticated. Mortar rounds are getting even more high tech. I'm
sure some folks were saying the same thing about the US's
first Proximity Fuzed anti-aircraft rounds in WWII. "You mean this
fancy doo dad is going to know when to explode next to one o' them nazi
planes??? Sheeeit..."
> I don't want the infantry to debus. I want it to stay
*shrug* If you really don't want light anti-armor capability in your
weapon fine. Do you also not want the ability to reach behind cover?
On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:49:42 -0800 (PST) John Atkinson
> <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> writes:
I spend three years in a "category 15" reserve unit, last 2 as a 76 Yankee
(Supply, Beth,) and I found that supply types can actually have more combat
related personal 'stuff' per man then traditional 'combat' MOS's (Job skill
specialty, Beth) although it was extremely socially unwise to advertise that
state. There are more 'out of sight' "storage areas" in a small supply cage
then in a pack, fer sure.
Oh, and that AP found one pronto.
Gracias,
[quoted original message omitted]
[quoted original message omitted]
From: <DAWGFACE47@webtv.net>
> this scenario is the wet dream of the anti-miliary folks, rabid
From: "Glenn M Wilson" <triphibious@juno.com>
> In your scenario it's not peace.
Damn right!
> It may not be declared war (when's the last time *that* was done?) but
Absolutely. Even the 6-month old babies.
> >The US Army has already been faced with similar situations,
> Or your mind.
Oh yes. I've worked at the Department of Veteran's Affairs, so I'm quite
familiar with "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder".
Suffer a bit from it myself - but not disabling, and had nothing to do
with military action. But I know it's real, and can bite you on the Bum even
decades later.
> Speaking strictly theoretically of course:
> And they can blame it on you. Sometimes that's what leaders have to
Good call. God help us, that's the best you could do. Zoomies would be even
better.
IMHO having a few grenade launchers with barf gas or similar "reduced
lethality" weapons around *even if they weren't all that non-lethal*
would allow the users to fool themselves that they weren't killing babies. Who
knows, it might even be true. Would save beaucoup psychological
casualties in later years amongst your own guys - or yourself.
That was the point I was trying to make.
i have "walked " in the enemies shoes too.
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >Assuming your laser, your computer, and your
> are getting even more high tech. I'm sure some folks
You've always got a "stupid" backup. Copperhead is nice, but there aren't many
left, they aren't in production, and DPICM is a proven alternative.
Hellfires are launched off helicopters--they don't
have some of the same concerns ground combat units do (like getting slammed
around the back of a track heading crosscountry or getting maintained by a
private with a GT 95). Javelin isn't quite as
complicated either--and frequently goes deadline
anyway.
God, but you sound like a 2LT. "I read it in a book so it must be TRUE!"
That's been the theme of a lot of your posts over the past.
> were saying the same thing about the US's
Radars are pretty simple. Now. What was the failure rate in WWII?
> *shrug* If you really don't want light anti-armor
You keep telling me it's got anti-armor capability. I
point out that it MIGHT take a BRDM, but not anything bigger. And if I've got
BRDMs running around, then a
.50 cal has quite adequate anti-armor capability. As
for reaching behind cover, Mk-19s or M-203s do quite
fine, thank you. And yes, in my platoon there are two
.50 cals, and 2 Mk-19s. What more do I need,
especially while running around on a breach?
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> As opposed to a spotter keying in a code and lasing
Yeah. If that's all you're doing, it's not hard. Remember there's a whole damn
MOS revolving around that.
Or a
> mortarman adjusting fire in the correct direction in
Mortarmen are rarely under fire--and frat happens more
often than they would like to admit.
Or a > grenadier giving the correct windage?
Not as easy as it sounds even under non-combat
conditions.
Or a LT > reading his GPS unit,
> correctly identifying a target and
LTs can barely find their way around garission, much less the field. Never
mind calling for fire.
> Yep full sized M-16's. That fits real nice in the
They issue them so they must fit. I think Don can speak to how many weapons
get carried around inside a Paladin.
> But you're right. FN doesn't know anything about
So what, if FN makes it it must rock?
> At 8:04 AM -0800 2/2/02, John Atkinson wrote:
I was thinking about this this morning. I think you are underestimating the
current technology in fuzing. Arms makers have been making things small for
years. This just seems like a next step.
> God, but you sound like a 2LT. "I read it in a book
And you sound like a crusty old E-5 who can't see past what he used
and that all things new are going to be crap. You're right. ATK doesn't know
shit about armaments manufacture. They certainly don't know anything about
fuzing in small packages.
> Radars are pretty simple. Now. What was the failure
Walk, crawl, run. This is a test prototype. They're running it through R&D a
few more times before the grunts really see them.
> You keep telling me it's got anti-armor capability. I
And if you really were paying attention you'd know that the.50 and Mk19 were
likely going to be replaced by the OCSW firing in 25mm, at fewer rounds to hit
and less ammo to carry around to combat units.
On a breach, probably not. But I'd expect that the Speed bump types would like
more firepower. 82nd and 101st would benefit greatly from this kind of
additional firepower.
> At 8:10 AM -0800 2/2/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Compared to a rifleman knowing how to adjust his sights? Waaay back in 1889
they were training riflemen to be calm and adjust their sights in combat. Or
do anything else like clear jams, operate complex equipment or properly
emplace mines or claymores.
> Or a
But they are rushed sometimes no? Tired after humping the tube, baseplate,
sight, ammo and radios over a hill to a behind the slope firing position. Oh
and these guys also get to function as a replacement Platoon HQ if things go
pear shaped.
> Or a LT > reading his GPS unit,
Train train train. Note there is a Practice round for the 20mm.
> They issue them so they must fit. I think Don can
Would he want to use something smaller? I'll bet he would.
> So what, if FN makes it it must rock?
They might have something. They certainly have been ahead of the curve the
past 60 years. Before that if you include John Browning's work.
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >God, but you sound like a 2LT. "I read it in a
Most E-5s aren't terribly crusty.
And I know which one lives through firefights and that's the one I'd rather
be.
> And if you really were paying attention you'd know
Fewer rounds to hit... right. The trend for the past, 500 years of firearms
development has been for higher rate of fire. If it's possible, the troops
will use it.
well said JOHN.
spoken like a grunt soldier.
> At 11:29 AM -0800 2/2/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Hey then just give them all metal storms right? Or a 100 round Mk19 box. Sure
it weighs more than the weapon but so what. The grunts just want to hose every
target down right?
The whole point of OCSW is that the sight gives you really accurate means of
getting the HE direct on the target rather than having to use Kentucky windage
after firing a few rounds. Fewer rounds to incapacitate a target is better,
no?
> On 2 Feb 2002 at 8:04, John Atkinson wrote:
+++SNIP+++
> God, but you sound like a 2LT. "I read it in a book
That's funny, most of your posts have had common themes also.
Nay-saying any
new or different concepts/technology and a general closedmindedness
being two of
the more notable ones. Somewhere between your nay-saying and the
fullfillment of
every gadget-freak's dreams are where real applications of technology
really lie.
> > were saying the same thing about the US's
M-203's are best-guess weapons, accuracy being more of an art than
sighting in
your target and aiming center-mass. The OICW concept is an attempt to
put explosives behind enemy cover with accuracy, instead of lobbing it in. By
putting more of the OICW's in the field than 203's there is a gain in volume
of fire that might mitigate the size of the round.
I don't know about the armor pentration capability. It's dubious to me that
such a small round could start smacking the snot out of light armor, but the
air-bursting
capabilities seem very desireable, even over a M-203 and in many
situations the
Mk-19* is unusable. MOUT** operations being a biggie, where the
airburst grenade capability of the OICW would rock.
IF they can make it work. IF Pvt Snuffy can make it work and IF the darned
thing doesn't wind up weighing a ton (any more than any other honker of a
weapon), then the OICW is a weapon system that's worth testing. They can't
test it until it's
developed, if nay-sayers like you were in charge of weapons system
design, you
wouldn't have a Mk-19 on your vehicles, because they'd only be used by
the navy's
landing craft, and even then only in their older hand-cranked versions
to pump out the rounds, (like the first gatling guns).
Our Navy and Air Force are the most effective in the world, due in large part
to the technology they put to use. The Army is investigating ways to update
itself in that same way... failure to do so and our lower numbers will hose
us, because it's the tech that will make the difference. America can't survive
an attrition war, it has to
win another way. That other way is by applying our know-how to kill
them better
and faster than they kill us. Technology is part of that know-how.
> At 07:09 1/02/02 -0800, John Atkinson wrote:
Well from want I've read I think the user flicks the selector to the desired
setting and points and shoots., there are a few settings. A point detonation
setting (the default), the grenade goes off when it hit's something. A delayed
point detonation system, designed to penetrate (something like a car door)
before detonating. A setting for lobbing the
grenade in through windows, you lase the wall, aim at the window and the
grenade detonates in the middle of the room (I suppose there's a set distance
added to the range on this setting). Also the air burst setting as
well :).
But John has a point, who'd want to such a complicated task to carry out
;)
I mean just imagine set the selector to the required setting, lase the target
and fire......Who'd be able to manage that? Maybe tank gunners?
Cheers
> At 05:20 2/02/02 -0600, dawgie wrote:
> well said JOHN.
But in this part of the world John is still a REMF, to the Australian infantry
EVERYBODY is:) After all the short version of the role of the infantry is to
close with and kill the enemy, to take and hold ground, role of the rest is to
support the infantry;)
Cheers
G'day,
> Glenn M Wilson wrote:
Thank you my saviour as usual!!! I sorta got lost on this thread when I had to
revert to guns called Oliver, Percy and Fred as I had no idea what an OWIC,
P90 or FN90 (or whatever!) were... it had its high moments though. For
instance Tom suddenly inform me that Fred "is a bit on the large
size..."
gave me a sudden image of a balding gun with a bad-case of middle age
spread.... ;)
<Adrian, that acronym list you were thinking of for stargrunt.ca... well get
Tom to give you a list of EVERY single gun name he can think of and put them
on the list... even if the description of each boils down to "small pistol",
"medium rifle", "soddingly huge gun that you can only carry around if your a
character in aliens">
Cheers
> At 09:08 2/02/02 -0500, you wrote:
Well now that Ryan's mentioned Metal Storm I'll point out the AICW (Advanced
Infantry Combat Weapon) under development for the Australian Defence Force.
Much the same as the OICW but uses a metal storm barrel instead of a magazine
fed, recoil operated grenade launcher. You can find information on it at the
Metal Storm website under Military Aplications.
Cheers
[quoted original message omitted]
On Sun, 03 Feb 2002 17:28:53 +1100 Derek Fulton
<derekfulton@bigpond.com> writes:
> At 07:09 1/02/02 -0800, John Atkinson wrote:
May I raise a 'minor' point?
Grunt Glen (one N - I have two n's) is supporting Pfc Phred's advancing
fireteam with the grenade launching (air burst) when two of Nasty Ned's
Nefarious Native Nazi's burst from their position on Phred's flank shooting
down 1 of the brave 4 warriors advancing and rushing the remainder to close.
In his haste to support his phriends butt Glen forgets to switch from GL to
'combat rifle' mode and drops his grenade neatly over the heads of both groups
killing the two NNNNN's but killing one of Phred's fire team members and
wounding the others. Could it
happen - you betcha' it *will* happen. Not every time but once is
enough for the 'friendly fire victims.
I always dislike the idea of having to remember 'which' personality my weapon
has active under fire. Rifles should be rifles, GL's should require separated
triggers, etc., etc., etc...
The AF version - back in the old days when NORAD interceptors carried
nukes for interception (in theory of course):
In simulator pilot closing on bandit flying over American city fails to switch
selector from nuclear armed rocket to conventional weaponry. Of course
"Positive Ground Control" prevents this in real life... Good thing we never
had to find out...
Gracias,
On Sun, 03 Feb 2002 18:16:06 +1100 Derek Fulton
<derekfulton@bigpond.com> writes:
> At 05:20 2/02/02 -0600, dawgie wrote:
Why, oh why did I know that you would say that? <grin>
Now *that* sounds very "infantry-ish" - everybody else is here so I can
do MY (implication - only really and truly important) job.
Of course, in the current final analysis it has a strong percentage of Thruth.
Gracias,
MY GOODNESS we are sure assuming a lot about that 18 year old 's abilities, in
combat for the first time and scared shitess....
Hmm. this button equals airburst over bad guys behind barricade. get ready to
eat death assholes!
OOOOPS! holy shit! they are over running the flank! hang on, buddy!
BLOOP! BLAM!
bad guys and left flank fire team are both wasted by airburst
UH-OH! me thinks i have made a giant FUBAR!
LOL- folks, i have a confession to make here. and a war story to tell.
WAR STORY ALERT! WAR STORY ALERT!
DELETE NOW OR READ ON AT YOUR OWN RISK!
during the jun 1968 NVA/VC Offensive and subsequent fighting in and
around saigon, i was an MP and fighting for my life and the lives of
my friends-again.
actually more than an MP. i was an MP who had spent a year humping the boonies
as a grunt rifleman, and worked my way from up from PFC E3 to SGT E5
(rifleman, LMG, fire team leader, squad leader and acting platoon sergeant).
my partner and i were heading ome after a very quiet night tour, when the
attack started out in gia dinh. we picked up an aussie staff sergeant on foot
and his FN fighting his way to join up with other americans.
the three of us reached the intersection of the road from tay ninh -
passed the 051 gate at TSN AFB, and there was a major war going on between
ARVN rangers defending their compound and NVA attacking the
compound and the national radio/tv station, so we dismounted and
spent time in the drainage ditch ngaged in the firefight.
among the highlights, was when, combat vet sgt dawgie, spotted NVA on the roof
top of the tallest building at the intersection (actually after eating dirt
when an RPD gunner tried to ruin our day), and took
them underfire with the M-79 we had in our jeep.
BLOOP! first shot was perfect-the trajectory was taking the round
right down on top of that RPD gunner's head!
BYE-BYE asshole and friends!
BUT. . . . .
sgt dawgie failed to take not of the telephone lines and power lines down
range, so the thumper round dropped from the sky, hit a wire and blew ALL of
the wires down....
knocked out all land lines for telephone service and power lines linking gia
dinh with saigon and cholon at one stroke!
(and these lines remained down for about a week)
my contribution to the war effort during the first of the firefight!
and really got the attention of the NVA on the roof!
and being smart, i let the NVA/VC get credit for knocking out the
telephone and ower lines!
the point of this war story is, MURPHY'S LAW! in combat, if it can go wrong,
it will go wrong.
i saw MURPHY and his work over and over again in combat.
it is not an usual event at all.
> At 9:30 AM -0500 2/3/02, Glenn M Wilson wrote:
It is. You can't take and hold ground without the grunts. In the end, you need
to get the grunts there, support them and give them the firepower they need.
> At 9:30 AM -0500 2/3/02, Glenn M Wilson wrote:
There is a really easy way to handle this in the interface. You have far more
5.56 rounds on tap than 20mm. So default mode is 5.56. Say you want to put a
few rounds at a target of opportunity and it will fire 5.56. If you want 20mm,
you have to select that, lase, add 2 meters with the toggle switch on the
trigger body, the sight gives you the offset (it does do this) with an aiming
cue marker based on range and you fire. Better that firing the 20mm is a
deliberate action. Likely the sight will have a different mode as well when
using the 20mm. User interface is important.
One thing to realize is that you train train train. You bet that there is an
advanced trainer for this system and its use in the contract somewhere.
Basically a simulator unit designed to teach its proper use.
> I always dislike the idea of having to remember 'which' personality my
They had Nike-Zeus missiles defending cities with Nukes. Still I'd
prefer a far above ground air burst nuke to a ground burst. The Air burst
won't have near the amount of fall out a ground burst does (near ground
burst). This was the age of the Nuke when the Genie was around. Look at the
Davy Crockett after all.
> In simulator pilot closing on bandit flying over American city fails to
The Nuke air burst was a stopgap for until they had sufficient guidance for
longer range missiles (and realized it was a bad idea to use them so wantonly)
It was also in the early days of use nuclear
for everything. They had floroscopes (X-Ray emitter behind a
florescing screen, you interposed yourself between the two for other people to
see your insides) in drug stores for people to look at their feet after all.
Not really a good idea on the overall scope of
limiting X-rays to your body as the exposure is cumulative.
> At 9:27 AM -0600 2/3/02, DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
Why would a blue be firing area munitions outside his sector of fire? Did the
LT or Pltn Sgt screw up in assigning sectors of fire? Why is he deliberately
firing such a weapon at friendlies?
> BUT. . . . .
Likely if they'd not been killed/suppressed, they'd have cut them
themselves anyhow to prevent communication. I assume this was all during Teht?
> (and these lines remained down for about a week)
And would you have preferred that someone back in the states decide that
enlisted men in combat were too dumb to use any kind of ranged weapons with
air burst in combat and thus never issue them in the first place?
Friendly fire isn't, thats why you train, train, train in fire combat, primary
sectors of fire, secondary sectors of fire, and where not to fire based on a
fighint position, be it hasty or prepared.
Now this is the second mailing list in which someone has mentioned Thruth?
What's a thruth? Is this another one of those Aussie things?
> On 3 Feb 2002 at 9:30, Glenn M Wilson wrote:
> Why, oh why did I know that you would say that? <grin>
> John Atkinson wrote:
> Javelin isn't quite as complicated either--and frequently goes deadline
Interesting. Do you have any confirmable (and preferrably
non-classified)
source for that, or is it personal experience, or hearsay?
Later,
> --- Derek Fulton <derekfulton@bigpond.com> wrote:
1)Civillians don't have an input. If you were an Aussie infantryman, I might
take your opinions seriously. As it is, I've yet to see you say anything that
was worth reading.
2)My job description is, in Commonwealth terms, closer what what you call an
"Assault Pioneer" rather than your Engineers.
After all the short version
> of the role of the
You know, for all the chest beating infantrymen do, they suddenly get real
respectful when they have a minefield to get across.
> Dawgface wrote:
> MY GOODNESS we are sure assuming a lot about that 18 year old 's
Now, this is where the very small lethal radius of the 20mm grenade actually
comes in as a bonus. If the blue left flank team is within the
couple-of-meters lethal radius of the bad guys, it doesn't matter what
weapon the shit-scared 18-year-old support gunner fires into the fray -
he'd risk hitting his buddies even if he used his rifle...
Regards,
> --- Flak Magnet <flakmagnet72@yahoo.com> wrote:
> That's funny, most of your posts have had common
Yeah, but if you don't have nay-saying curmudgeons who
keep saying "Sure it looks good in a laboratory, but will it work in the Real
World??" then you end up with a bunch of weapons programs that start to
resemble Nazi Germany's approach to standardization and simplification in
weaponry.
> They can't test it until it's
They'd be stuck actually putting workable proposals on the table rather than
rifle that weigh more than machine guns.
> Our Navy and Air Force are the most effective in the
Smarter, tougher troops count for more than technology. You see, I'm in 1st
BDE 4th ID. We are
the test-bed brigade for a lot of the
digitization/Force XXI experimental crap. I havn't
been impressed worth a damn. I've dealt with FBCB2,
2-squad platoons, et al. The only idea I've seen that
made sense was the mass use of Hornets. Other than that, I'd far rather go
back to the way things were in the early 90s.
yep! train train train!
and pray, pray, pray, that all goes well after the fight starts!
and when the enemy breaks through the perimeter, outflanks the firing line and
etc, you can bet some one will shoot right back at the enemy
COMING HIS/HER WAY and shooting at HIM/HER. . . . .
combat vision is TUNNEL VISION, not cinemscopic views.
LOL you, see my 18 year olld was alset to engage an enemyaction FRONT, in
support of the forward movement of the let flank fire team that was flanked,
shot up and then killed by HIS friendly fire.
all he saw was BAD GUYS SHOOTING HIS BUDDIES-HE DID NOT REMEMBER HE
WAS SWITCHED TO HTWIW-GL MODE!
see? he shot to stop a flank attack on his position, without thinking, and the
rest is history in my little HTWIW story!
and in my own personal example, i was glad to have the thumper, and cried not
a tear over the lines down.
LOL-if the three of us had not happened by the intersection would have
been over run and the radio/tv station captured. the ARVN rangers tossed
us LMG, M-16 and M-79 ammo over their barbed wire. we were the official
main resistance for that day-an army of three.
it was just an example of MURPHY AT WORK and nothing more.
we were the MURPHY for the NVA/VC, and my shot was the MURPHY for the
landline telephones and power lines.
by the way how did you make that frontal view of a tank with a keyboard?
G'day John,
> 1)Civillians don't have an input. If you were an
Derek may be only a civilian now, but don't assume he always was (you'd be
wrong).
G'day again,
> 2)My job description is, in Commonwealth terms, closer
Opps sorry forgot to mention, from what I've heard around Derek's mates and
family dinner table (which includes at least him, 3 ex-corporals, 2
ex-sergeants, the current 2IC of the Aussie Psych Corp and an career
soldier who used to parachute for his country) you'd still be an REMF.
Cheers
JohnA said:
> > 2)My job description is, in Commonwealth terms, closer
Beth said:
> Opps sorry forgot to mention, from what I've heard around Derek's
If they feel that combat engineers are REMFs, they don't understand what
combat engineers do, or else they don't understand what "REMF" means.
> --- Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> wrote:
Legally hearsay--Engineers don't get real anti-tank
weapons.
> At 3:50 PM -0600 2/3/02, DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
Training takes over somewhere in there. Motorcycling is the same sort of thing
in some respects. A lot of training and practice is getting you over the first
insticts that interfere with what will really save your life.
The most easy thing to explain with motor cycling is a rear wheel slide. If
you let up on the brakes you high side in some situations. Its far better to
low side than high side. Getting out of a rear wheel slide (be it power or
brake caused) is to continue doing what you are doing and slowly let up.
Counter steering is another example. When you see riders on two stroke GP
bikes get into a rear wheel slide and they chop the throttle they tend to high
side just after. GP bikes with their high power to weight ration are really
good at tossing the rider off at an oblique angle and following said rider end
over end. (John, if you don't motorcycle, I don't expect an answer based on
your own concepts of voices of opinion on past life experience)
> LOL you , see my 18 year olld was alset to engage an enemyaction FRONT,
Likely you'll have specific people kitted out with the OICW rather than the
entire platoon. Somewhere more than the two or so grenadiers but less than the
entire platoon.
> all he saw was BAD GUYS SHOOTING HIS BUDDIES-HE DID NOT REMEMBER HE
Yeah, but bad reflexes can cause the same kind of trouble if he does
the same thing with a saw or even an M-16 on burst.
> see? he shot to stop a flank attack on his position, without thinking,
Some incidents are just so. Organized chaos.
> by the way how did you make that frontal view of a tank with a
The tank is my M2/3 Daimler Ferrer Scout car. Really just a bit of
ascii art. You get the image in your head and 'draw' it out. I drew up a few
others as examples. Another fellow on another list has a M8 Armored car as
well.
> At 07:54 3/02/02 -0500, Chris wrote:
To keep it simple, a REMF or what ever nickname pertains to your part of
the world is ANYONE who is further to the rear than you are. In the Australian
Infantrymen's case that's just about everyone else;)
> Now let's go on to the next topic of conversation, shall we?
Yes, let's. I await in eager anticipation of further topics and opportunities
for John to demonstrate his combat engineering skills, specifically mine
clearance as he stomps around putting his foot in it, again!:)
Cheers
[quoted original message omitted]
> On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 01:16:05PM -0800, John Atkinson wrote:
Heh. A friend of mine's former Civil Service (UK) and a keen amateur
historian; he reckons that one of the major advantages the Allies had during
WW2 was the committee system. If Hitler saw a flashy demo, he
could say "this project has Utmost Top Priority" - and often did, so
lots of projects had it. If someone in the UK saw a flashy demo, he still had
to get it past the rest of the committee, each member of which had his own pet
projects; so something would only get funded if it were really and obviously
worth having.
I don't entirely agree with him, but it's an interesting concept.
Roger Burton West schrieb:
> On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 01:16:05PM -0800, John Atkinson
Not only Hitler. Goering and Udet also had a penchant for disastrous
decisions, in this case concerning the Luftwaffe. Don't know about the
committee system as such, but I too, reckon that an important advantage a
democracy has over a dictatorship is freedom
of opinion. Free discussion tends to shoot down any hare-brained ideas
before they get too out-of-hand.
Greetings
morning DEREK.
do you know MAL WRIGHT or BRIAN MULDOON?
REMF or RAMF means the same thing here as it does down uder.
refresh my oz slang; drongo-i cannot remember what this means. 34
years is a long time.
WTF is an REMF? I'm LLMF when it comes to that acronym.
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Subject: Re: B Ark Colonist and Colonial Industry... [LONG[
From: Tim Gray <tgray@adacplastics.com>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: <ML-3.4.1012790448.9383.books@jumpgate.jumpspace.net>
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> On 3-Feb-02 at 21:32, Brian Burger (yh728@victoria.tc.ca) wrote:
But then there could be no colony analog to Australia, something that the
Aussies on this list might have an opinion about...
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Subject: Re: HIGH TECH WONDER INDIVIDUAL WEAPON
From: Tim Gray <tgray@adacplastics.com>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020204154222.021b13b0@mail.bigpond.com>
References: <A8877251964B294BAB5BA1FC58B43FED612F0A@molly.tas.csiro.au>
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Oh! R.ear E.chelon umm... M.ilitary F.orces...
Yeah, that's what it is... exactly... (or something).
--Flak
> On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 00:29, Derek Fulton wrote:
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Subject: whats a remf.. tim gray
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:24:12 +0100
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> WTF is an REMF?
A somewhat comfortably off personage to be found in the safer regions of
military operations and prone to sexual activities with his surviving female
parent!!! R being rear E being echelon M being mother F being a 6 letter
unsavoury sexually descriptive noun.
Bob Deangelis
PS definition kept formal for the benefit of the sensitive members of this
list. Hobby pages
www.angelfire.com/games4/chubbybob
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Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:25:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Roger Books <books@jumpspace.net>
Subject: Re: Website update (I think)
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I do hate pop-unders.
Roger Books
> On 4-Feb-02 at 02:36, Brian Burger (yh728@victoria.tc.ca) wrote:
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Subject: RE: B Ark Colonist and Colonial Industry... [LONG[
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Just give them permanent sterilzation after they've made the requisite
donation to the reproductive sperm/egg bank. If they want kids, they
can grow them in a tube. This would allow greater genetic diversity to the
communinity, since if the person in question leaves or is killed, you still
have access to the genetic material.
Besides by that point, cloning should be an accomplished technology and you
could generate gametes from a clip off someone's finger or even have their
complete genome on file.
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
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From: Phillip Atcliffe <Phillip.Atcliffe@uwe.ac.uk>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: HIGH TECH WONDER INDIVIDUAL WEAPON
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> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:41:18 -0600 (CST) DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
> refresh my oz slang; drongo-i cannot remember what this means. 34
Someone/thing who's stupid, incompetent, etc. -- though it can be used
affectionately, too. A real bird, but the use of the word as an insult is
alleged to come from the name of a racehorse with an unspectacular career.
Personally, my favourite racehorse was always "Fred" -- and he used to
win races, too! <g>
Phil
----
(Dr) P.A. Atcliffe Senior Lecturer Computing, Engineering and Mathematical
Sciences University of the West of England, Bristol
Phone: +44 (0)117 344 2496
Fax: +44 (0)117 344 3800
Email: Phillip.Atcliffe@uwe.ac.uk
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The issue with that is how you track how much an individual actually
contributes. It would be difficult to measure how much an individual was
responsible for an output of 10 tons of ore for that day. How much would the
guy operating the drill get? How much for the guy running the ore cars? How
much for the guy setting the explosives? What if the vein ran cold, is your
sentence extended? I can see great abuse of the
system, with supervisors consistently under-reporting their yields to
keep the work force around longer - after all why let your best miner's
go after only a year or two when you can have them work for three or
four years - doubling your production from them.
> From a capitalist point of view that would be a terrible system,
Etc.
There is still room for abuses (like how do you keep the bully from stealing
your extra alcohol ration) or excessive penalties for failure to meet quota
but I don't see it being any different than current prision systems. There
will probably always be watchdog groups to help verify treatment and living
conditions of prisoners.
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
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In future tech it would be moot to track heredity through either parent.
a) Fetuses will be modified in vitro or pre-utero to remove the most
dangerous genetic defects - you will no longer be limited to what your
parents DNA offers. If you alter the DNA enough are you still your parent's
child?
b) Maternity is traced through the mitochondria DNA - the power
organelles supplied by the egg. In the future, with cloning, the person who
donates the egg, may not be the same people who contribute the DNA.
c) What if there is no mother? If the person in question is a clone or
received combined DNA from two males or received DNA from more than two
people then paternity/maternity is a far more complex item.
d) It will become less of an issue of who your parents are than who you are.
No longer will your parent's genes, grandparent's genes or great
grand parents genes matter. As stock brokers say - previous performance
is not an indicator for future results. Your genes for intelligence, strength,
health, eyesight, hearing etc will be modified to be the best that genes can
provide, regardless of what your parents had. Saying that, this service may
not be generally available, and perhaps only the richest of the rich will be
able to afford to custom design their children. In this case, having a
complete genomic record on file might become standard. (see GATTACA)
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
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Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:58:05 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <s_schoon@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [FT] Fighter missile racks
In-reply-to: <3C5DF781.614FF314@spikyfishthing.com>
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> On 2/3/02 6:52 PM, "Jaime Tiampo" <fugu@spikyfishthing.com> wrote:
> Fighter missiles:
My gut feeling is that the point cost is low, but I haven't done the math.
Schoon
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Subject: RE: RE: B Ark Colonist and Colonial Industry... [LONG[
From: "laserlight@quixnet.net" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
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> Hrm. . . Could I find 10,000 women with that kind of self-control?
> Sure -- look in any large, modern university.
The difficulty them becomes sorting out the 10,000 who qualify from the rest
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I'd be interested in the list of the ones that failed, particularly
those that failed the tests/screening process miserably...
--Flak
> On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 12:29, laserlight@quixnet.net wrote:
--
--Flak Magnet
Hive Fleet Jaegernaught
http://www.geocities.com/flakmagnet72
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: Rick Rutherford <Rick@esr.com>
To: "'gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu '" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: RE: B Ark Colonist and Colonial Industry... [LONG[
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:28:54 -0500
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> laserlight@quixnet.net wrote:
Yes, I'd assume that the "Colonist Selection Process" would eliminate the
unwary & irresponsible people (both male & female).
-- Rick Rutherford
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I finally ordered the rules (all three books) and am eagerly awaiting their
arrival. Before they arrive, I would like to ask a few questions to get
myself in thee right frame of mind for the game:
1) what size of naval units is the game designed to be ideal for?
2) How is FTL travel handled? Is it a jump (al la B5), a "Warp" al la Star
Trek, or a "hyperspace" a la Star Wars? Or is it up to the player?
3) How common are non-FTL system defense ships, and how big do they get?
4) What's the average size for miniatures for different classes of ships?
5) Kieran Rohan mentioned a gaming group up in Portland, ORe. If he's reading
this, can he tell me if they play FT?
2B^2
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
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From: Brian Burger <yh728@victoria.tc.ca>
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> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Robert Minadeo wrote:
> Sorry. Should have been more specific.
This is one of the things I was experimenting with during the redesign; I
agree that the darker blue is better against the background patterns & colours
I'm using now.
I'll standardize the whole site this week.
Brian - yh728@victoria.tc.ca -
- http://warbard.iwarp.com/games.html -
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> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Roger Books wrote:
> I do hate pop-unders.
Don't we all?:>
These are part of the new, highly irritating Freeservers; they used to just
have banner ads at the top of each page, which was fine. Now they've
got banners AND popups/popunders.
Want to know something interesting? If you browse with Opera (www.opera.com)
none of the Freeservers popups appear! Ditto a number of other irritating
popups from other websites! I only realized Freeservers
had added popups when a friend told me; I always surf w/ Opera...
I'm still looking for a new webspace provider to move my site to...
Brian - yh728@victoria.tc.ca -
- http://warbard.iwarp.com/games.html -
> Roger Books
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Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:06:31 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <s_schoon@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: FT: Pre-read questions
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> On 2/4/02 10:49 AM, "Brian Bilderback" <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 1) what size of naval units is the game designed to be ideal for?
"Fleet-sized," though that can be anywhere from 3 ships to 30+,
depending on
how many people you have. Average fleets tend to be about 7-10 ships.
> 2) How is FTL travel handled? Is it a jump (al la B5), a "Warp" al la
Somewhat akin to ST or SW, though not exactly either.
> 3) How common are non-FTL system defense ships, and how big do they
You tell us :-) Canon is pretty vague on this point, and besides, you're
encouraged to make up your own anyway.
> 4) What's the average size for miniatures for different classes of
All approximate and vary according to nation, etc.
DD - 3cm
CH - 5-6cm
DN - 8-10cm
Schoon
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Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 20:28:59 +0100
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
Subject: Re: [FT] IJN Designs?
In-Reply-To: <3C58E8BE.214F4D81@spikyfishthing.com>
References: <B18DDC5F1158D311A66900805FD4718102C7CA68@vstasv1>
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> Jaime Tiempo wrote:
> Here's my take on some IJN ships as I wait in anticipation for my mega
Initial comment: These designs are all heavily geared towards Vector combat,
rather than Cinematic.
> Destoyer: MASS COST
Illegal design; 8 MASS too many.
> Heavy Cruiser:
Legal
> Heavy Cruiser {Missile}:
Should be "Mass = 84, Cost = 293". Apart from that it's OK.
> Battlecruiser:
Legal
> Battleship: MASS COST
1 MASS unused; according to the NPV you've specified (460) it should be a
weapon or PDS. I would however suggest that you make that one missing MASS an
FCS instead; otherwise all those weapons are unable to fire at all...
> Super Dreadnought:
Legal
> Fleet Carrier: MASS COST
Legal design, but the NPV was incorrect
Regards,
Oerjan oerjan.ohlson@telia.com
"Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it, depends on what you put into
it."
-Hen3ry
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From: "MSN Renegade" <msnrenegade@cs.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: Boarding scenario
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:13:47 -0000
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From: ~ On Behalf Of Glenn M Wilson
Sent: 03 February 2002 14:45
Subject: Boarding scenario
> Okay, so far it's been about boarding armed naval craft of
Pule elongside een an henormous space dr'eadnought en dwaw the sheep eento
thur cahgobay... of course ah am Fwench, why do you theenk ah am speeking en
thees atoicious accent?
(With apologies to our international readers who may have problems decyphering
that one, or who haven't seen Python.)
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From: "Brian Bilderback" <bbilderback@hotmail.com>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: FT: Pre-read questions
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> Sean Bayan Schoonmaker wrote:
Cool, doesn't sound like too huge an outlay to start. Do most fleets center
around a Battleship, Carrier, or does it vary with power?
> > 2) How is FTL travel handled? Is it a jump (al la B5), a "Warp" al
That too is cool, although I'm saure you could PSB any sort of effects, no?
> > 3) How common are non-FTL system defense ships, and how big do they
I'm thinking of, once I've learned the game, designing a "Cutter," something
in the destroyer to Cruiser range, but without FTL, to handle
system defense on far-flung colony systems.
> > 4) What's the average size for miniatures for different classes of
Cool, I have some bits and stuff as well as some B5 figs that will work well.
By the way, do the rules cover things like asteroid bases, etc.?
2B^2
_________________________________________________________________
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From: Roger Burton West <roger@firedrake.org>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: FT: Pre-read questions
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> On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:16:50PM -0800, Brian Bilderback wrote:
Depends on what you want. I think most of us start with some generic
miniatures and let them represent whatever's needed, rather than having a
permanent fleet from the beginning.
> Somewhat akin to ST or SW, though not exactly either.
Yes. The rules deal with (a) entering FTL during battle (it's hazardous) and
(b) entering battle via FTL drive. Both of these suggest a "jump" style of FTL
travel.
> I'm thinking of, once I've learned the game, designing a "Cutter,"
> system defense on far-flung colony systems.
Certainly this is consistent with canon; but remember to build enough
tugs/tenders to shift them around...
> By the way, do the rules cover things like asteroid bases, etc.?
Bases are mentioned briefly but haven't been conceptually updated for
the FB rules yet. (In essence: small bases are thrust-0 ships with no
firing arc restrictions; larger bases are small bases clumped together.)
Roger
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Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:47:47 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <s_schoon@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: FT: Pre-read questions
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I'll hit what Roger didn't (or what I have to add)
> On 2/4/02 12:16 PM, "Brian Bilderback" <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Cool, doesn't sound like too huge an outlay to start. Do most fleets
Though there are canon stats for the powers, organization has not yet been
covered. Some are stronger (by design) in certain aspects, but you can
construct a fleet however you like.
> That too is cool, although I'm saure you could PSB any sort of
One of the great strengths of the FT system is that it is so adaptable. In
short, the answer is yes.
> I'm thinking of, once I've learned the game, designing a "Cutter,"
Go for it.
> Cool, I have some bits and stuff as well as some B5 figs that will
I believe that there are even B5 stats out there.
> By the way, do the rules cover things like asteroid bases, etc.?
Sort of; they haven't been specifically addressed in the new rules.
Schoon
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[quoted original message omitted]
> At 07:41 4/02/02 -0600, you wrote:
> morning DEREK.
G'Day Dawgie
> do you know MAL WRIGHT or BRIAN MULDOON?
Sorry, no.
> REMF or RAMF means the same thing here as it does down uder.
The further you travel, the more the things remain the same:)
> refresh my oz slang; drongo-i cannot remember what this means. 34
Phillip explanation is about right.
Cheers
LOL- thanks Phil!
DRONGO, multi uses, depending on circumstances or person.
gotcha!
SOUTHERLY BUSTER?
strong wind or winds blowing out of the south?
and there is also another term for YANK that i used to hear that some times
provoked fist fights and at other times laughter, depending on how it was
used.
about like using a really colorful cuss word as a fighting word, or
an a friendly name/greeting.
dawgie, who was usually drinking beer with ausies and kiwis when he did his
language studies. and researched the legendary RVN virgin..
G'day,
> and there is also another term for YANK that i used to hear that some
It still surfaces, though isn't used quite as much by the younger urban
Australian population any more;)
> about like using a really colorful cuss word as a fighting word, or
We still do that a lot though;)
> Beth Fulton Wrote:
> G'day,
One of my father's favorite Navy stories involved Australia and fistfights,
but NOT necessarily with Strines. Humor me while I recall his tale:
Back in the 1960's, my fathers destroyer pulled into port in Darwin. The
place was all gussied up and spit-polished, because HRH either had just
was was soon to visit. The place was already in the mood for a party. When his
ship arrived, a Royal NZ ship was already in port, and the native populace had
been showing their Antipodean kin a Grand Old Time. But as soon as the Yank
sailors put ashore, the Aussies started ignoring the Kiwi sailors and focusing
their hospitality on the USN. This did not sit well with the New Zealanders.
Soon, American sailors learned not to walk close to the
buildings when they passed open pub doors - fists would appear from the
doorways an deck them. This went on for some time, until the evening my
father and a friend, both teetotalers, found a Kiwi lying face down in the
street, as drunk as only a sailor can get. It turned out to be the XO of the
other ship. My father and his friend picked the gent up, and carried him back
to his ship. The Kiwis gave them a huge cheer, reacting under the illusion
that the two Yanks had drunk their First Mate under the table.
> From that point on, there was almost no trouble between the two groups.
2B^2
> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:
> --- Derek Fulton <derekfulton@bigpond.com> wrote:
> To keep it simple, a REMF or what ever nickname
Well, considering that Australia's last moment of military glory was...
contributing a batallion to the thing in RVN about 30 years ago, I'd have to
say that the US Army has PAC clerks and finance weenies deployed to
Afghanistan who can consider basically everyone in the Australian Army,
including airborne infantry and everything else, as REMFs.
In regards to the question of who is closest to the enemy if everyone in
question is performing their combat missions, I have to refer to the various
breaching drills I'm familliar with. They mostly involve the infantry and
armor (we have that in the US Army, that's what we call those loud things with
big guns, lots of armor, and tracks) pulling security while we roll up to the
wire and do what we have to do to get rid of the mines, thus placing us
1)Closest to the enemy, and 2)incapable of taking cover while doing our job,
and 3)the main focus of the enemy's defensive fire.
Now, in Australia you can't afford combined arms[1], so you don't have this
beautifully orchestrated ballet of farm implements, so you wouldn't know what
in God's name I'm talking about. I'd suggest doing some research before
running off at the mouth again.
G'day,
> Well, considering that Australia's last moment of
Assuming the guys we sent to the Middle east, Africa, Afghanistan and
Southeast Asia don't count for nothin' (and it would be a braver soul than I
to tell our special forces that).
> I'd suggest doing some
To paraphrase a bloke I know who spoke recently...
"I'd suggest doing some research before running off at the mouth again."
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, John Atkinson wrote:
Some interesting toys and techniques here for SG2...
I'm feeling evilly inspired to do some GMing soon.:>
If you visit this page, do follow the link to the chapter on use & emplacing
these munitions.
[quoted original message omitted]
> At 07:32 5/02/02 +0100, Karl wrote:
> Actually, some Australian special forces *were* deployed in
Actually it's not *were* but *are* as in still there still carrying out
operations.
Cheers
From: "Derek Fulton" <derekfulton@bigpond.com>
> At 07:32 5/02/02 +0100, Karl wrote:
At 05:45 4/02/02 -0800, John howled at the sky:
> Well, considering that Australia's last moment of
Well your improving John, last time you tried this line (with Beth, off list)
you tried to claim that Australia's total contribution to the Vietnam
war was half a dozen observers/advisors.
Actually the number of advisors was 30. Australia's further commitment to the
war in Vietnam did indeed start with a Battalion ( 1 Battalion Royal
Australian Regiment), joining the US 173rd Airborne Brigade. After a year's
service the battalion was replaced by a brigade sized formation (1 Australian
Task Force), this included two battalions and elements from all supporting
arms (including artillery, armour and special forces). Other
Australian units/formations present were
1 Australian Logistics Group HQ Australian Force Vietnam HQ II Field Force
Vietnam
No 9 Squadron RAAF (flying UH-1)
No 35 Squadron RAAF (flying Caribou) This doesn't include Royal Australian
Navy personnel and ships and personnel from the New Zealand armed forces
At the peak of it's involvement the Australian commitment totaled more than
7000 and 50 000 Army, Airforce and Navy personnel served in Vietnam.
Something larger than a battalion I would think?
As for the Australian Defence Forces involvement in 'military glory' as you
put it for the last, I think Beth covered in general the regions Australian
servicemen and women have served and still are serving in the
'last thirty years'.
> I'd have to say
Just so you will have a clue I found this for you "The Australian Defence
Force is providing about 1550 people to protect and support the international
coalition's military efforts to combat terrorism. This Australian contingent
will include capabilities from Special Forces, Navy frigates and a transport
ship with air defence, long range maritime patrol
aircraft, tanker aircraft and F/A-18 fighter aircraft."
Further more it is a Australian Naval Officer who currently commands the
international naval force enforcing sanctions against Iraq in the Gulf.
> Now, in Australia you can't afford combined arms[1],
Actually the Australian military has long been aware of the concept of
combined arms, there was a General Monash who aptly demonstrated the concept
to the German's in France on the Western Front during WWI.
The ADF does indeed own the odd tank (1st Armoured Regiment), artillery and
all those other items and as evidenced by the successes of Australian's
fighting overseas since volunteers sailed to New Zealand to fight in the
Moari Wars does know how to use them.
Like Beth suggested, take a leaf out of your own book and at least get
yourself some facts, like I have said to you already 'piss and wind' doesn't
cut it. I excepted this of you, but so soon? And so badly too:)
Cheers
On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 04:28:46 +1100 Derek Fulton
> <derekfulton@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Other Australian units/formations present were
> 1 Australian Logistics Group
What about the Canberras of No 2 Squadron? You remember the Canberra --
the light, fast bomber that was so good that the Septics produced
it under license as the B-57? <eg>
Phil
----
> Phillip Atcliffe wrote:
> What about the Canberras of No 2 Squadron? You remember the Canberra --
Septics? Please tell me that's a typo....
2B^2
LOL- US SEPTICS also used lots of canberras as ground attack aircraft
in the NAM.
most, US or AUSSIE, were called BLACK CATS. I assume beause all of the one's i
ever saw were painted BLACK!
even the ones flying in the broad daylight.
DAWGIE
NOPE!
SEPTIC is one of those international fighting words unless you assume that it
is being used in a friendly fashion among friends.
I ASSUME THAT THIS IS THE CASE?
DAWGIE
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Alan and Carmel Brain wrote:
> From: "Derek Fulton" <derekfulton@bigpond.com>
Is a book & movie contract a standard part of SAS post-mission
debriefings these days? It seems that way sometimes...:>
Canada's SpecOps guys - JTF2 - are also on the ground in Afganistan. Did
anyone see a picture a week or three ago, of two or three white-clad
Afgans being led out of a big transport helo by two or three soldiers in odd
uniforms? They were initially ID'd as US SpecOps by the media here; it turns
out they're JTF2...
There's also some domestic political controversy about 'unlawful combatants'
and the Geneva Conventions, but that's another matter entirely.
It seems Canada & Australia have SpecOps with rare abilities - they can
do their job without a blaze of publicity...
G'day,
> Septics? Please tell me that's a typo....
Well its not, but its usually used in fun, comes from our rhyming slang
background.... yank, tank, septic tank... or at least that's the way my
granddad explained it to me;)
Cheers
[quoted original message omitted]
> On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 06:01:37PM -0800, Brian Burger wrote:
So do we (.uk). They're called the SBS. :-)
Roger Burton West schrieb:
> On Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 06:01:37PM -0800, Brian Burger
I have seen various books on the SBS. Admittedly rather less than about the
SAS.
Greetings
> At 08:11 5/02/02 +0000, Phil wrote:
Ooops! must have missed that:) But I can say I've actually seen a real life
working version in flight. It was equipped for atmospheric research
was travelling around Australia collecting data.
Cheers
On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 01:44:42 +1100 Derek Fulton
<derekfulton@bigpond.com> writes:
> At 06:01 5/02/02 -0800, you wrote:
True, but another excuse would have been found. The point was to kidnap and
use the pressure to weaken resolve.
Gracias,
> At 06:26 6/02/02 -0500, Glen wrote:
> True, but another excuse would have been found. The point was to
But whose resolve are they trying to weaken and to what end?
Cheers
From: <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de>
> > >It seems Canada & Australia have SpecOps with rare
There's also been a movie made about people in the Australian SAS during the
Vietnam days, called "The Odd Angry Shot". Few Combat
> At 09:54 7/02/02 +1100, you wrote:
The lack of combat scenes was there for a reason, the title of the film (and
the novella, the film is based on) is a bit of a hint. Long periods of boredom
punctuated by the odd angry shot. The film also did show LRRPS duties, it just
didn't make it all that obvious (if you remember the film, the search of the
temple was one example) as the conduct of the war was not the film's main
intention, the characters were.
Cheers
Derek
PS Trivia warning ******* There is one scene where the main characters vent
their frustration on a rifle range, shooting the place up. During the filming
the Australian Army provided help and I once met a WO2 (Warrant
Officer, class 2) who as a young Corporal got to help in the making of the
film by doing the actual 'shooting' of the rifle range (with his section). Of
course, where did I run into this guy on a..... rifle range:)
> Derek Fulton wrote:
> The lack of combat scenes was there for a reason, the title of the film
If you don't mind a movie about us septics, one VN era-setting movie
I've had strongly recommended to me, but still haven't found, is 84 Charlie
Mopic. Anyone ever seen it?
2B^2
combat cameraman?
a movie about combat cameramen?
this ought to be strange and interesting too.
> DAWGIE wrote:
> combat cameraman?
> From what I've heard of the movie, it's more about the recon team he's
2B^2
[quoted original message omitted]
Thanks for the good review. I was told by a friend that it's pretty accurate.
2B^2
> From: "Robin Paul" <Robin.Paul@tesco.net>
> more
> At 02:19 8/02/02 -0800, 2B^2 wrote:
> assigned to cover.
Hang on, awful feeling of recognition here?! Does it have a 'reality tv'
look about it?
DOINK!
(SOUND OF LIGHT BULB COMING ON!)
DAWGIE, too has a sudden repressed flashback of a movie he wished he ad not
had to set through at a friend's house years back.
a reality tv/"blair witches" camra feel?
and these guys are LRRPS sitting around in indian country carrying on long
winded conversations with each other, smoking, and joking?
a bozo PR officer is also along for the wonder mission? and he and the black
nco get along like gaasoline (petrol) and matches?
i (GAG!) saw that movie. my ex's sister, her boyfriend, and the houseful of
folks who missed the war could not understand my choking on my soda, muffled
laughter, and look of disblief at the events going on....
i never knew the name of that epic till now.
[quoted original message omitted]
> Derek Fulton wrote:
> combat cameraman?
That's the one.
2B^2
> DAWGFACE wrote:
> DOINK!
Finally, a review of the flick. Thanks for the warning. ;-)
2B^2
> At 08:08 11/02/02 -0800, 2B^2 wrote:
Then as Dawgie suggested there's better films to watch:)
Cheers
> It was on BBC2 years ago, and I thought it was very good. <SNIP>I
Funnily enough, I hated Full Metal Jacket when it came out as I'd seen
production footage showing how Kubrick turned the east end into Vietnam and
I couldn't suspend my disbelief when I watched it - I've managed it
since then, but tof course now I play with Samurai Carrots and Bazooka
wielding Potatoes. Funny world, eh?...
> <SNIP>If you don't mind a movie about us septics, one VN era-setting
I think this is the one the post is talking about. I watched it and enjoyed
it - I was into Hell By Daylight (Jim Webster/Anchluss) then and was
anxious to get ideas and visualisation, as you do. Of course, that was before
I
found Stargrunt ;-) (Which curiously enough does contain rules for
vegetables...)
BC
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Veg-Warz/
One carrot with a gun against the world....
Quoting Neomatrix <neomatrix@btinternet.com>:
> >It was on BBC2 years ago, and I thought it was very good. <SNIP>I
Kubrick was famous for not liking leaving the UK. The bone tumbling through
the air scene in 2001 apparently took ages to shoot because the tall hedges
separating the field where they did it from Pinewood studios kept turning up
in
shot...