HBW. My input +

6 posts ยท Feb 8 2000 to Feb 9 2000

From: Izenberg, Noam <Noam.Izenberg@j...>

Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:03:10 -0500

Subject: Re: HBW. My input +

> From Greame:

> I don't think they are balanced with p-torps for this reason:

By Schoon's method that's not true, since the emitter limits the total engergy
that can be thrown.

> So my solution (for what its worth)

> BE's

I like this - I've always been a fan of a single emitter cost and
rating.
However, it's too cheap to buy extra arcs. Should be 2/6

> BPS's

Lopsided mass/cost, I think. Make mass= classx2, cost = mass*3

> (ie one ptorp = 4mass 12pts)

By this figuring, HBW class 1 is 4 mass & 12 points also, plus extra arcs are
more expensive

> Hit/damage.

That's interesting, but needs to be costed.

> SSD notes

I (still) like the EFSB method, but it (still) depends on total cost balance

> P-torps are less vulnerable too threshold checks than HBW's. HBW's on

"Double damage" is, I think not an accurate way of putting it. It depends on
the size of the generator (alone in your case) and the emitter (in Schoon's
case).

> From Tom:

> According to the standards that some are complaining about concerning

> bzzt. wrong. the roll for beams is a roll to hit. it's also a roll to

I just love semantics.

> the issue raised is not of the lack of a roll to hit, it's the lack of

The statistical impact of autohit at 0-6" vs. Hit on 2+ is one damage
point.
You're arguing for an average damage of 2.5 rather than 3.5 at 0-6" vs.
unscreened, and overall reduction of HBW efficiency to below P-torp
levels (unless you change cost etc...) for a weapon that is already less
efficent
than a p-torp between 12 and 30" (and less than half as efficient per
die
from 18-30").

The other caveats also don't make a compelling case to me. The small piece
of game real estate that allows the autohit means you darn well _do_
have to
not only guess placement your opponent's ship - to better than you do
for an
SM (6" radius vs 1/6 that pie slice), but (also unlike the SM) you have
to
maneuver your _ship_ into that position and face the proper way to be
effective. And it of course puts you both at fingernail scratching distance,
so neither of you is going to emerge from that encounter unscathed,
regardless. I just can't see how the autohit can be so objectionable with
the weapon's built-in limitations.

> we've criticised the automatic hit, and suggested fixes - the 'always

I recall the proposal, and my answer:
> ... perhaps the range increment

> Still don't like it. Still weaker and more expensive than Ptorps in

To that I'll add: You don't average even one one point damage at that range
until you can throw 6 dice. Compare that to Class 3 beams, of which which
any _two_ can average 1 point out to 36" vs. even screen 2. Don't forget
that screen 1 erases the furthest range band as currently conceived, and
screen 2 erases the outer _2_ bands.

OTOH I'd be quite willing to consider "1 always misses" (in effect 2+
hits
from 0-12", then one worse each 6" range band) if "6 always scores at
least 1 point".

> we've criticised the fact that the capacitor takes two hits before

I could take reduced mass and cost for this "feature," but why not
_leave_
it (and keep the mass and cost) for the different flavor it gives the weapon?
If my objection can be answered by a lower total cost, why can't yours be
answered by a higher cost? If it can, then all we're really beating to death
is the game feel of the weapon, With some (i.e. me, etc) wanting to stick
closer to the EFSB version than others (Tom, etc). That boils down to simple
Personal Taste (tm).

From: Roger Books <books@m...>

Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:05:02 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: HBW. My input +

> On 8-Feb-00 at 13:04, Izenberg, Noam (Noam.Izenberg@jhuapl.edu) wrote:

The fact that you have two breakdown rolls (emitter or capacitor) kind of
balances the chance of a double shot.

From: kwasTAKETHISOUT@o... (Kr'rt)

Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 00:04:55 GMT

Subject: Re: HBW. My input +

Quoth "Izenberg, Noam" <Noam.Izenberg@jhuapl.edu>...

> the issue raised is not of the lack of a roll to hit, it's the lack

I always cringe a little (a lot) when people talk about weapon efficiencies as
compared with other weapons in a given wargame. FLAVOR and STYLE are much,
much more important than whether the HBW is
.626% +/-  less efficient than a P-torp.  Why not have only Basic Beam
Weapons? That way everything is as efficient as everything else differing only
in name. The NSL uses "Phased Plasma Ejectors" while the NAC uses
"Synchronized Laser Mounts" etc. You get my point.

> The other caveats also don't make a compelling case to me. The small

This isn't strictly true. If your ship is only front firing, then what you say
is true but with a ship with 2 or 3 Emitters, you can easily get one of them
to bear at close range.

> OTOH I'd be quite willing to consider "1 always misses" (in effect 2+

The "6-Hits" rule sounds just fine.  It makes sense and fits well with
the "1-Misses" rule

-=Kr'rt

From: Robertson, Brendan <Brendan.Robertson@d...>

Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:12:11 +1100

Subject: RE: HBW. My input +

It just comes down to play balance. When X weapon does 10% more average damage
than Y weapon, Y weapon will be classed as obsolete & not used. Everyone
having the same weapons makes for a very dull game, both mentally &
tactically; but the variations still need to be balanced.

Neath Southern Skies - http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/
[mkw] Admiral Peter Rollins; Task Force Zulu
[pirates] Prince Rupert Raspberry; Base Commander

> -----Original Message-----

From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@a...>

Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:52:13 -0800

Subject: Re: HBW. My input +

> I always cringe a little (a lot) when people talk about weapon

Agreed. However, we do have to use some sort of statistical comparison to make
sure things are balanced.

From: Izenberg, Noam <Noam.Izenberg@j...>

Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:34:15 -0500

Subject: Re: HBW. My input +

From: kwasTAKETHISOUT@optonline.net (Kr'rt)

> I always cringe a little (a lot) when people talk about weapon

I agree, but if you _want_ to integrate a new weapon or system into the
game, you have to do it so that you don't unbalance things.

> FLAVOR and STYLE are much, much more important than whether the HBW is

Also agreed, unless its unbalancing one way or the other.

> I just can't see how the autohit can be so objectionable with

> This isn't strictly true. If your ship is only front firing, then

Easily? Mmmaybe. My assumption is that the extra arcs are paid for. One thing
to keep in mind abot the HBW as presented so far is that it is a close
range weapon. It's power per mass/point/arc at distances beyond 18" is,
I believe, below any other weapon with comparable range, which it makes up for
at the closest ranges.