[GZG] UNSC Workings

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I've never found the UNSC in the tuffleyverse to be terribly realistic. The
only explanation I can think of is if they have some kind of longstanding
intrasolar hegemony that they're capitalizing off of (see the great post on
tax and population bases). After a major war and with the major powers based
on colonies like Albion, presumably this makes it possible, with their
pretense being that they protect the homeworld from WMD armageddon. But if the
UN exists as an institution at all in the future, it has to be radically
transformed from what it is today. The UNSC as described reminds me of Comstar
in battletech, something I also have trouble figuring out.

(I say intrasolar because if someone owned the solar system's asteroid, comet,
dwarf planet and moon bases, the economic potential
is staggering. It would out-pace the great powers because they'd been
at it longer, but the great powers wouldn't mind because it's concentrated
into one system with no chance of expansion.)

> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:54 PM, <emu2020@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Dec 11, 2008, at 3:54 PM, emu2020@comcast.net wrote:

> Renaming the topic to raise a new one based off the original. Has

How would member nations handle the UN doing advanced weapons
research today?  To me this is the interesting thing -- how did a non-
governmental organization gather the funds to build a fleet of advanced
vessels? How come the member nations aren't getting a cut of this tech?

> 2) They have their own ship and equipment designs and so are not

That's kind of a leap. One can say the UNSC has their own fleet but can we say
anything about numbers? In the fleet books we get an idea of how many ships
each Earth bound empire owns. As an aside it's interesting to go through the
FB1 and put the number of each class in
a spreadsheet -- it really shows what each nation thought was
important. Anyway...

Does the UNSC have it's own ground forces? Or are they futuristic
blue-helmets from the member states?

> 3) Where does all this come from?

Membership dues which come and go. Perhaps the UNSC is the largest PMC around
and they'll send "peace keepers" if you send them the cash. I see them gaining
income by renting out their fleet assets.
And then you have the various "taxes" and/or fines they levy against
member nations for having bad prisons at outpost XYZ... perhaps you can't fly
the known interstellar space lanes without paying a USNC tax?

Perhaps the future UNSC sponsors the ever popular "Captain Commando" cartoon?

It's the far future -- let the mind wander.

> 4) If they have their own space, own resources, own production,

Because their "charter" makes them neutral.:)

Damo

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ther or not they have their own standing armies, we do know they have their
own ground trooper gear. the UNSC minis are shown with some sort of hard armor
and enclosing helmet and what appears to be an energy weapon which are
diofferent from all other nations.

-Eli

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s George Soros behind the UNSC -- secretly had his consciousness
uploaded into a Kurzweil construct about 2017, and managed to preserve
and grow his billions through the Crazy Years. ;-)

Best, Ken

> --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Robert Mayberry <robert.mayberry@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Robert Mayberry <robert.mayberry@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [GZG] UNSC Workings
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 6:01 PM

I've never found the UNSC in the tuffleyverse to be terribly realistic. The
only explanation I can think of is if they have some kind of longstanding
intrasolar hegemony that they're capitalizing off of (see the great post on
tax and population bases). After a major war and with the major powers based
on colonies like Albion, presumably this makes it possible, with their
pretense being that they protect the homeworld from WMD armageddon. But if the
UN exists as an institution at all in the future, it has to be radically
transformed from what it is today. The UNSC as described reminds me of Comstar
in battletech, something I also have trouble figuring out.

(I say intrasolar because if someone owned the solar system's asteroid, comet,
dwarf planet and moon bases, the economic potential
is staggering. It would out-pace the great powers because they'd been
at it longer, but the great powers wouldn't mind because it's concentrated
into one system with no chance of expansion.)

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> Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Damo <damosan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Dec 11, 2008, at 3:54 PM, emu2020@comcast.net wrote:

My thinking is that the UNSC postulated in the Tuffleyverse first came about
as a cooperative agreement between the major powers to mutually sponsor an
entity (the UNSC) so no one power could gain control of the core worlds. With
the major powers, as well as the minor powers, all contributing to ensure they
have some sort of holdings in the core worlds, and to make sure they are not
taken over by another power (kinda like a safe deposit
box),
the UNSC could get substantial amounts of funding. In a short time they would
become a power to be reckoned with.

They could then segregate asteroids, moons, planets off for ship bases and
research projects. They do send exploratory vessels out to the outer worlds
(and likely beyond), so maybe somewhere along the way they stumbled upon
something or other of ancient alien tech that allowed them to develop the
grazer and AMTs.

Or some braniac in their membership stumbled upon something that allowed this
sort of weapons development. <shrug>

> > 2) They have their own ship and equipment designs and so are not

We do know (from piecing together various postings from Jon, the timeline,
etc) that the UNSC is strong enough to keep the other major powers in line in
the core worlds, and exercise some sort of jurisdiction in the inner worlds.
In the outer worlds, not so much (isolated excursions is all; besides, their
mandate is not to patrol the outer worlds anyway).

And if it is not strong enough to keep any two powers down in the core, then
it is at least strong enough to go head-to-head with any one of them.
Besides, if any one power got uppity and thought they could do something about
taking out the UNSC (and thus opening up the core worlds to strife and being
taken over), the other powers would jump all over them to ensure they kept
their holdings intact. By the time the UNSC would be beaten, it would have
weakened the aggressor power so much that the other powers would have a
field day with them - and likely not just pummel them into a minor
power, but take their core world holdings at the same time. So, it actually
behooves the major (and minor) powers to limit their conflict with the UNSC
and in the core worlds.

As an aside it's
> interesting to go through the FB1 and put the number of each class in

Hmmm. I'll have to try that.

Mk

UNSC was what got me into FT. I came on board just as the UNSC "rules" were
posted, so that's where I went. I always pictured the UN thusly:

The UN was generally marginalized as many smaller countries were absorbed into
the larger "powers". Still, the UN persisted as a diplomatic entity to
facilitate discussion and mediate disputes. Indeed, any number of countries
that wished to remain outside the major powers chose to ally themselves more
closely to the UN as a means of remaining independent. As humanity spread, the
core worlds systems were
colonized multi-nationally.  Soon it became obvious that a "neutral"
force was needed to police these systems as conflict and disagreement between
the powers led to spotty policing at best. This would prove to be the
foundation of an independent UN and UNSC. Early on, UNSC forces used castoff
older ships, crewed by whomever the member nations would lend out. These
forces proved woefully inadequate to prevent combat within the Core systems
during several smaller conflicts which led to a call from a truly independent
UNSC. This call was answered after the considerable damage done throughout the
Core systems in the First Solar War. Even the largest powers were forced to go
along with an enlarged UNSC in order to protect their home countries and
important colonies from assault from their nearest neighbors. The increased
role of the UN allowed several things to occur. First, the independent
countries were allowed to declare themselves as formally under UN protection
and to provide money to facilitate that protection. Secondly, the UN was
authorized to raise money by taxing the core worlds and any independent
colonies. Finally, a "UN citizenship" was created which allowed anyone to
renounce their own citizenship and coming a citizen of the UN. This had an
unexpected result, as there were a vast number on private space habitats
(corporate, splinter groups, or multinationals), which had not enjoyed the
uncomfortable position of being unprotected during wartime. Within a few
years, most of these habitats were UN protectorates, and their populations
were largely formal UN citizens. Indeed, large swaths of the moon, the
Langrage point habitats, and the Mars Orbital habitats were now under direct
UN control. Similarly, disaffected populations within the major powers
provided large numbers of UN citizens, and the independent countries on Earth
grew increasingly close to the UN. With the newfound income streams, and a
growing population base, the UN began to build the UNSC to enforce its
mandate. Initially relying on borrowed designs and crews, the UNSC (and its
associated ground forces) slowly began to move to being made up entirely of UN
citizens. This movement was hastened by several incidents of lent crews
"borrowing" UN technology for their natural countries. The UNSC recognized
that they did not have the population base for a combat force as large as the
great powers. Fortunately, any numbers of the protectorates were advanced
research labs and the space habitats contained many citizens that were used to
dealing with high tech in their everyday lives. This led to the decision to
concentrate the UNSC and UNGF (United Nations Ground Forces) on smaller
numbers of the most advanced technological weapons available. By the point of
the Second Solar war, the UNSC had advanced sufficiently to largely prevent
any fighting in the Core systems. The UN used this success to successfully
promote an expansion of the UN mandate to include any system not directly
claimed by a major power, deep space exploration, and with the first fleeting
contacts with
non-human races the coordination of human defenses in times of outright
war. The growing power of the UN, coupled with the fact that most of the
largest powers had led to the unusual position where most of the Core Worlds
assets of the major powers were as much under UN control as their own. Indeed,
there was a growing push amongst the UN to put *all* of the Core Worlds
exclusively under UN control. More than a few suspect that the UN is slowly
maneuvering to become the single human government. Increasing levels of
suspicion about UN motives may have led to a slower response to the earliest
Kravak incursions. The growth of the UN mandate outside the Core Worlds has
led to several of the "minor" powers becoming more closely allied with the UN
as well. Perhaps most significant is the strong military and technological
alliance between the UN and New Israel. This has served to give considerable
increase to the already impressive technological base of both sides, and
despite denials by both powers, it is clear that major advances have been
passed between the two. Rumors persist that UN Black Ops forces are fully in
possession of New Israeli stealth equipment. The UN has also been able to draw
still more population from the few truly independent systems and deep space
habitats, and has generally been supportive of breakaway republics once they
have been proven viable. How the UN will be transformed by the Kravak wars
remains to be seen. The major powers are undoubtedly concerned by the drain on
their populations that UN citizenship has proven to be, and are unlikely to
support any further growth of the UN mandate. Still joining the UN as a
protectorate has proven itself as an excellent way to avoid human conflicts,
and the UNSC has grown to a size sufficient to prevent direct military action
by any one of the large powers.

One guy's take.

Grant

[quoted original message omitted]

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> y wrote:
Yes, it is interesting. Just as a first stab at it, I totalled the number of
each class of hull that was built or under construction according to the FB
stats; it's not what each fleet has available to it,

but it does show where the effort and money was put into building the ships.
Some intriguing results come to mind, such as:

* The NSL and FSE are definitely light on small ships (what in FT2 were called
escorts) by comparison to the NAC and ESU. Cruisers and captial ships
(including carriers) are roughly equivalent,
      though the FSE are down a bit -- given the size of their big
ships, the logical conclusion is that they're going for quality rather than
quantity.
    * The NAC has a /lot/ of small ships -- well over half the total
number; so does the ESU, but the big difference is the Anglian fondness for
frigates, of which they have at least half as many again as any other power,
and more than three times the number of the NSL. The other powers seem to
prefer destroyers, of which they
      have a significantly greater fleet, including Heavy/Super/Missile
DDs, which the NAC has none of, having gone the heavy frigate route instead.
One has to feel sorry for the VKF sailors serving
      on the "uncomfortable" /Warsaw/ DDs, of which there are nearly
twice as many as any other destroyer class. * Certain powers seem to have a
distaste for particular sizes of ship: the NAC and heavy destroyers, for
instance; another is the
      ESU's relativel small numbers of BC/BB-size ships. They have
      plenty of cruisers -- more than 50% more than any other power --
and a good number of the heavier classes, but there is a gap there which is
the major reason why the ESU has fewer capital ships overall than the NAC.

Naturally, this is all going to be different once the "new" fleets are in
widespread service, but we'll have to wait for the updated stats
/circa/ 2200 for that... ;-)

Phil

Hmm.. Suppose the UNSC charter excludes "ownership" or sovereignty over any
given world or established colony, but grants it sovereignty
over the space in-between? (much like the Traveller Empire) If this is
the case, its funding sources would come predominantly from fees and
taxes very similar to import/export taxes. Fees would be collected for
the "service" of providing space-policing (anti-pirate activities,
etc.) Also, due its position as a neutral power, it is only logical
for it to serve the role of mercenary oversight - everything from
insurance/bonding, escrow funds, ex/repatriation, and contract
arbitration - an enormous amount of monies in its own right. Further,
smaller, funding might come from various areas within the intellectual
property realm, colonial lending (also potentially huge), etc.

I sort of envision the UNSC more like a commercial entity than the modern UN.
The various nations are not necessarily "member states" but are, instead,
clients. Why provide your own interdiction and policing vessels when you can
just pay a [relatively] small fee to the UNSC and they'll do it for you?

In terms of its high-tech gear, well... The UNSC must invest vast sums
into scientific research, both in terms of sponsoring collegiate research and
possibly to owning its own research facilities in
satellites, moons and leased dirt-based buildings. Possibly in order
to maintain its tech-advantage, the research is not published outside
the UNSC organization and the hardware not made available until the patents
near expiration, except in cases where the technology does not
actually threaten to tip the balance on their tech-edge.

Faster than a speeding slug!

That's a pretty cool background. It seems like a pretty reasonable setup and
seems to paint a pretty good way to manage the UNSC in the GZG universe.

PMCs could then be regulated by the UNSC, though it would also be interesting
to borrow Gundam's idea of a PMC Trust as the mercenaries' own governing body
used "internally" and seperate from the UNSC.

Perhaps the PMC Trust is the central organization for mercenary contracts and
contacts and provides a single point of contact between mercenary "industry"
concerns and policies and the UNSC. This way the UNSC doesn't

have to try and track down and make direct contact with every merc' unit

that is out there. They can put that task in the hands of the PMC Trust and
thus not have to commit their own resources. The UNSC might even have a seet
on the PMC Trust.

-Eli

[quoted original message omitted]

I also always presumed that the UNSC would coordinate efforts to fight the
Alien Menace, work out treaties to deal with other aliens, etc. Seemed like
the natural clearing house for organizing the 'human' response.

-P.

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> Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:37 PM, <paul@otd.com> wrote:

> I also always presumed that the UNSC would coordinate efforts to fight

Except given that the K'V actually make it to Sol and cause the Siege of Sol
in 2194, I'd be inclined to think that the UNSC got complacent about the "K'V
menace" until it was too late to actually make a realistic stand against them,
and got chewed piecemeal. The remnants of the UNSC, as well as those of the
other Major Powers, have to combine in order to throw the K'V out of Sol. And
everyone gets whittled down a bit.

Then the Ixx appear...

:-D

Mk

I would definitely second this.

[quoted original message omitted]

> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:53:17PM -0500, Indy wrote:

> Except given that the K'V actually make it to Sol and cause the Siege

Or they were too busy building their spandy new ships...

Or things would have gone even _worse_ without the UNSC coordination...

I would expect that the UN has a generally good relationship with private
military contractors. So long as they retain good legal standing, the UN would
occasionally contract out such groups to serve as additional UN ground forces
in places where the UN can not easily maintain their own forces. In addition,
the UNSC would serve as a deterrent to such forces taking over a planet on
their own *and* as an enforcement structure so that the mercenaries' contracts
are properly enacted by both sides.

[quoted original message omitted]

Yeah, that sounds about right within my framework. In addition, a certain
number of space habitats would be outright controlled by the UN. These would
be the UN research and construction facilities, administrative locations, and
the like. I imagine the UN would have a very large orbital facility in Earth
orbit, and perhaps a "general assembly" on the moon.

[quoted original message omitted]

I would imagine so. If I go ahead and do something like the PMC Trust in my
setting, I'll likely use it as the representative arm of the PMC's own
concerns.

-Eli

> I would expect that the UN has a generally good relationship with

> that the mercenaries' contracts are properly enacted by both sides.

All perfectly reasonable possibilities. If human histoy has shown anything its
that the outcome is never guaranteed. The best defenses and plans can fail and
victory can be pulled out of the most dire situations.

The UNSC may have been the only thing that kept humanity from fragmenting in
the face of invasion and coordinated fleet actions that engaged the enemy on
an "all for one" basis and prevented the various human nations from turtling
into their own spaces and defending just their respective selves.

-Eli

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pictured the UN has having 3 major "fleets". The first fleet, pride of the
UNSC, is located in the SOL system. Local enforcement and peacekeeping and the
core reserves for the UNSC. The second fleet performs a similar function for
the other core worlds as well as maintains a presence in the "home" systems of
the major powers. The third fleet is the widely scattered deep space
enforcement. Numerically the largest, but with a higher percentage of cruisers
and smaller ships for remote peacekeeping, patrols, enforcement, and the like.
Third fleet also has the deep space exploration, and is seldom concentrated in
large numbers. As the Kravak assault mounted, internal disputes between the
major powers put the burden of fighting on the Third fleet
which was largely mauled.    Reinforcements from First fleet were
withdrawn as the magnitude of the threat to the core worlds became apparent,
as were the remnants of Third Fleet. Withdrawal of UNSC support has led to the
bitterness of the farthest colonies and hastened the formation of the Out Rim
Coalition. Heavy UNSC losses in the Core Worlds have validated the "modular
design" of UNSC ships, although the lack of large formations of UNGF troops
has forced the reliance on ground troops from the large powers.

UNSC ships are designed as modules, not for making ships interchangeable, but
for the purpose of rapid building when necessary. Each section is built at
it's own specialized yard, and then mated together to form the final ships.
This for instance allows large numbers of fighter modules to be constructed,
then assembled into light or heavy carriers as needed. These have proven quite
valuable, as UN fighter modules with minimal control and thrust modules have
been placed in many orbits to serve as functional fighter bases as the Kravak
offensive has closed on the Core worlds. When the pressure on the core worlds
has subsided, surviving units can be quickly converted to full carriers to
take the offensive to the Kravak. In addition, it has proven useful to use a
completed ship section to replace a badly damaged section on a ship rather
than take the time and yard facilities to repair the ship. This has also
resulted in some unusual UNSC ships when a completed section from one design
has been available to mount to the undamaged areas of another ship. The speed
with which this has been done seems to have confirmed speculation that the
UNSC has designed up any number of "variations" on their existing ship
designs. Most such adaptations have had short lifespans, either being
destroyed in combat or being converted back when proper modules became
available. Several matings of BC front ends with light carrier hulls proved
quite successful though, which has led to the purpose building of a class of
battle carriers with battleship foreships and light carrier modules and
thrust. A dreadnaught mating with a heavy carrier appears to be under
construction, to create a truly fearsome super heavy carrier (SHCV). It is
known that these ships have led to the design of similar Heavy Combat Carriers
by the other major powers, but it remains to be seen if they will see
construction. The module nature has proven to decrease the construction time
on large vessels by up to%25 over the other major powers, although it may
prove to slightly increase the production time of destroyer sized vessels
(which seldom survive for repair in any case). The modular design also proved
useful when during the upgrade from AMT's to Grazers, it allowed the old rear
sections to remain in production while the new front ends were being worked
up. Production was also little affected by the temporary suspension of
extended range SDN's in favor of the Gaia class "combat" SDN.

________________________________
From: gzg-l-bounces@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
[mailto:gzg-l-bounces@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Indy
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:53 PM
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [GZG] UNSC Workings

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:37 PM, <paul@otd.com<mailto:paul@otd.com>> wrote: I
also always presumed that the UNSC would coordinate efforts to fight the Alien
Menace, work out treaties to deal with other aliens, etc. Seemed like the
natural clearing house for organizing the 'human' response.

Except given that the K'V actually make it to Sol and cause the Siege of Sol
in 2194, I'd be inclined to think that the UNSC got complacent about the "K'V
menace" until it was too late to actually make a realistic stand against them,
and got chewed piecemeal. The remnants of the UNSC, as well as those of the
other Major Powers, have to combine in order to throw the K'V out of Sol. And
everyone gets whittled down a bit.

Then the Ixx appear...

:-D

Mk

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l since I have several UNSC hull sections on the drawing boards and hopefully
built soon (holidays have been getting in my way but I'm still
sketching out on paper ;-) here's my design thoughts.

The current generation of UNSC ships are modular in more looks then actual
construction. They use many of hte same components to keep construction and
dev costs done but they're constructed as a single ship.

Having learned from the KV invasion and now having to rebuild it's fleets the
UNSC is going to a completely modular construction system which allows for
faster developement and upgrading as well as decentralised construction.

The first run of these ships will be a new BC class hull developed from the
Point class which will theoretically replace the Luna, Comet and Star class
ships. This class will be completely modular in nature and be able to fullfil
roles ranging from escort duty, system patrol, exploration, fleet command,
planetary assualt depeding what expansion modules are docked.

Following on is a new DD class hull that will replace ships from DD to
cruiser.

Under developement are new fleet carrier and Super Dreadnaught hulls.

What is likely to be seen is a series of new central hull sections designed
a built as the UNSC refine their new ringed sections ;-)
Slowly down sizing the length of hte wings to decrease their target size as
the ring take over hlding more weapons and sensors.

This kind of construction costs a lot more since each module has to be more
self contained and mating structural members more complex then a single hull.
It does buy you faster upgrading, independant construction tracks, faster
repairs (assuming you are able to keep spare modules in stock).

It takes only one drink to get me drunk. The trouble is, I can't remember if
it's the thirteenth or the fourteenth.
   George Burns

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For what it's worth, I like that the OUDF is the "modular ships" faction, and
I wouldn't want the UNSC to duplicate that. I like that the UN uses "module"
designs for construction purposes, but once mated the modules are permanent.
In theory, it would simplify design changes as well. I like to consider the
battle corvette, deep space explorer, and BC as the first UNSC designs,
followed by the cruisers, and then the new battleships and DN's. The old BC
fore hull design is most in need of an upgrade and a new one (possibly with a
cruciform more like the battleships) would see production as soon as the
Kravak threat lessens. The Lake class destroyers were upgraded by minor
changes to the production fore hull as new weapons designs came into play
(largely to reduce their dependence on the supply chain for reloads). The
"fleet" upgrades to grazers (first implemented on the brand new Heavy Cruiser
design) were implemented after the Strike, Escort, and Light cruiser designs
were in production for some time, and the decision was made to retain the
current designs until completely new fore hulls were warranted (after the BC).

Most likely, the battle carrier designs developed during the war will be
retired or mothballed shortly after the war ends due to the very high material
and personnel costs to operate them in a peacetime environment. The Super
Heavy Carrier may be retained as fleet flagship and propaganda tool though.

________________________________
From: gzg-l-bounces@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
[mailto:gzg-l-bounces@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Jaime
Tiampo
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 3:23 PM
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [GZG] UNSC Workings

Well since I have several UNSC hull sections on the drawing boards and
hopefully built soon (holidays have been getting in my way but I'm still
sketching out on paper ;-) here's my design thoughts.

The current generation of UNSC ships are modular in more looks then actual
construction. They use many of hte same components to keep construction and
dev costs done but they're constructed as a single ship.

Having learned from the KV invasion and now having to rebuild it's fleets the
UNSC is going to a completely modular construction system which allows for
faster developement and upgrading as well as decentralised construction.

The first run of these ships will be a new BC class hull developed from the
Point class which will theoretically replace the Luna, Comet and Star class
ships. This class will be completely modular in nature and be able to fullfil
roles ranging from escort duty, system patrol, exploration, fleet command,
planetary assualt depeding what expansion modules are docked.

Following on is a new DD class hull that will replace ships from DD to
cruiser.

Under developement are new fleet carrier and Super Dreadnaught hulls.

What is likely to be seen is a series of new central hull sections
designed a built as the UNSC refine their new ringed sections ;-)
Slowly down sizing the length of hte wings to decrease their target size as
the ring take over hlding more weapons and sensors.

This kind of construction costs a lot more since each module has to be more
self contained and mating structural members more complex then a single hull.
It does buy you faster upgrading, independant construction tracks, faster
repairs (assuming you are able to keep spare modules in stock).

It takes only one drink to get me drunk. The trouble is, I can't remember if
it's the thirteenth or the fourteenth.
   George Burns

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k said: "Except given that the K'V actually make it to Sol and cause the Siege
of Sol in 2194, I'd be inclined to think that the UNSC got complacent about
the "K'V menace" until it was too late to actually make a realistic stand
against them, and got chewed piecemeal. The remnants of the UNSC, as well as
those of the other Major Powers, have to combine in order to throw the K'V out
of Sol. And everyone gets whittled down a bit."

Or, same data, different picture:

Initially, the UNSC encountered the KV. They kept it under wraps because they
didn't know what they had. Then reports leaked out to the major powers who
were initially fairly skeptical too. The major powers also haven't seen the
UNSC in a heavy showdown (unlike the ESU, NAC, and others who've been slamming
away at Solar Wars for a long time) so they tend to think of them a bit as
'sound and fury signifying nothing'. So they figure 'we can handle them'.

The KV, for their part, are a bit unpredictable and strike hard here and
there. The humans have some challenges managing their encounters due to
technological differences and tactial differences.

Eventually, the UNSC starts to majorly mobilize, but they can't manage
repulsing the invader on their own. And some of the others are Solar War weary
and still paranoid about working together. This translates into political
suspicion and foot dragging and then interoperability problems and trust
issues on the battlefield. The net effect of this is to render the
mid-term response rather poorly coordinated and ineffective.

Finally, even the big nations realize that this is an 'all hands on deck'
scenario and they and the UN start really cooperating. By that point, it is
late in the game and Battle for Sol is inevitable.

Note in this model that the UN may have tried to organize a response earlier,
but it was the delaying and suspicion between the other major powers that
slowed up and gutted the response (such as the cases where
fleets have ships of multiple nations with different ROE - I recall
examples from the canon timeline).

It all depends how bad you want the UN to look vs. the nation-bloc
powers.

TomB

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important role (and indeeed population and tax base) would be the political
control over the SOL system itself.

I am sure the major power blocks would not want each other dominating the sol
system (which would mean major battles within the sol system itself and
possible orbital bombardment of their home nations on earth, so various
treaties regarding the control over space in regards to the solar system were
probably strengthened, and the UN manadated to control all off world actions
within the sol system.

So the terraforming of mars and its colonisation, asteroid belt mining, as
well as asteroid belt settlements etc would all come under UNSC direct
control, with them acting as a barrier to the major powers exertign their
control in SOL. This could even be extended to take into account the space in
the
core/inner systems where colonisation is stabilised, and the major
powers have their slices, with the UN controlling what is left directly under
their mandate.

This along with the smaller independant nations who have thrown themselves
behind the UN to protect their independance would give the UN a nice tax and
population base, as well as the resources for orbital shipyards and research,
and to design their own range of recognizable ships intended for police
actions.

Exploration and First contact would also be mandated to the UNSC, if only for
one reason, trust, as no one side will trust the other side during the solar
wars and their aftermath

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8/12/12 Ladue, Grant <ladue@buffalo.edu>

> For what it's worth, I like that the OUDF is the "modular ships"
My thought was that you don't have plug and play weapon mounts like the OUDF
but modular hull sections that can be mated together. For instance a BC
command hull, a carrier module, a "wing" module and then an engine module. The
ship name would follow the forward hull section and the rest would be
swapped out for mission specific tasks / maint upgrades.

> it would simplify design changes as well. I like to consider the
were
> implemented after the Strike, Escort, and Light
My vision has the new BC class to take over the mission specs of
BC/BB/strike carriers/light carriers. They'd be the new work horse of
the fleet. I should say I call them BC because in their base configuration
that's their size, but since they'd have several modules available they'd
upclass quickly to BB size and bigger.

With a major threat of the KV capital ships would be needed in case of attack.
You'd have to use them as major world pickets or propoganda shows of force in
peacetime. Fleet carriers would also be usefull to support large ground
opperations if your PSB includes atmospheric capable fighters.

> It takes only one drink to get me drunk. The trouble is, I can't

> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 2:54 PM, <emu2020@comcast.net> wrote:

> 4) If they have their own space, own resources, own production, then

It could be like it is today:

It isn't neutral, but certain classes of people pretend it is because it fits
their overall agenda.