> John Atkinsons wrote:
> can't imagine trying to use SAS or Delta Force alone for any
You see, John, my original comment was inspired by the reflection somebody
(can't remember who) did about how much space would a land unit occupy on a
spaceship and the dimension of such a transport, with the final reflection
proposed upon the very small total size of an interstellar invasion force.
While all the reflection of the original post are sound, given my opinion of a
limited usefulness of the small elite units, such a small size of an invasion
force would mean that interstellar invasions would simply be impossible, even
in the SF universe we game.
> The insurgency failed utterly in 1968. After that, it was PAVN
They were, in the open battle sense: they used close order movement and
assault, had bad coordination of movements of different separated bodies and
no ability in cooperation between different branches (when they used them,
later in the war) The issue is not how you call them; I could baptize my
boyscout troops "Napoleon's Old Guard" and they still could not close a square
if charged by cavalry.
> And while they weren't as sophisticated as the
I think most of the skirmishes lost by the US involved light infantry; tanks
and artillery participated in the later invasion of the South.
Still, "guns and light tanks" is ill-equipped (to my eyes) when faced
by air support, helicopters, trucks, APC, heavy bomber, electronic sensor, air
recce, satellite... (can go on, but you get the view).
> ...Poland or Yugoslavia in WWII.
Well, Poland had no ACTIVE resistance movement until '44 (that's why they had
weapons at that time) and Yugoslavia had no idea it could be rescued by
anybody (in fact, half the resistance movement thought good to shoot the other
half as soon as it appeared they REALLY could be rescued by somebody, the
wrong somebody):)
> But the most critical piece of information for an insurgency is a
Now you hit a good idea... the existence of a sanctuary and logistical staging
area would be important, in the long run; but after how much time? Obviously,
the locals would have larger stores than the guys who have to haul it all from
the nearest star (per previous suggestion on the logistics of invasion)...
resupply drops... and if they come in silently up to a point and drop their
cargo in re-entry orbits from outside the orbiting patrol? Yes,
re-entry is spectacular, probably... and if they send 5 vehicles at a
time? Your force is still made of a handful of companies... do you run all
around? Divided to cover all the probable landing points? What if it's a ruse
and they are waiting for you?
> Arguing theory is masturbation. Without a specific scenario, you can
And there, you are right. And, please, do not think that any discussion here
is meant as disrespect to your "daytime job" and all the risks connected; we
simply have different opinions.
Best wishes to all
> At 1:44 AM +0200 5/13/08, Enzo de Ianni wrote:
How big is the colony? How many forces can they put up in defense? How many
forces can you bring along in your jump capable Gator Carrier. I guarantee you
that a 3 ship USMC MEU can EASILY deal with most countries and effect a
takeover. It'd be bloody but they could do exactly what they want. Depending
on the will of the people to defend or just let the new lot of tyrants come in
that is.
Having the high ground and being able to exert control from above would assist
the problem greatly.
Why do I see a Bolo coming into this?
On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Enzo de Ianni <enzodeianni@tiscali.it> wrote:
> You see, John, my original comment was inspired by the reflection
True--but one presumes that an invasion force would have a number of
transports. In fact, the assault commanders would probably prefer multiple
smaller transports (so that you don't loose a major portion of your force's
equipment when one goes down, cf. MV Atlantic Conveyor and the helicoptors) in
large numbers, as opposed to the Navy which is probably arguing for a handful
of giant transports for efficiency's sake.
Personally, I wouldn't drop a single battalion on anything populated by more
than a few thousand folks in any case. YMMV.
> While all the reflection of the original post are sound, given my
Except for very small colonies, stipulated. I make one of two assumptions:
Either Assault Transports are operated in great numbers for a major operation,
or
Assault transports are used to land an initial force that may be limited in
size but with as much firepower as possible to secure landing sites for troops
packed into transports in a more efficient but less 'combat ready'
configuration.
> They were, in the open battle sense: they used close order movement
You're simply factually incorrect. Cite source.
> I think most of the skirmishes lost by the US involved light
Again, please cite source. At no time did any Vietnamese contingent defeat a
United States force larger than a recon patrol or special forces team, and
even then those instances were exceedingly rare.
> >...Poland or Yugoslavia in WWII.
The Jews in the Ghetto might be surprised to hear that.
The Armia Krajowa might be deeply surprised to hear that--given that
they (among other things) smuggled V-1 and V-2 rocket parts out of
Poland to England, fighting in the Zamosec Uprising and Operation Tasma, etc..
.
Karol Juliusz "Igo" Sym would be surprised to hear that, given his date of
death as well.
It's hard to have a conversation with someone who simply makes facts up as he
pleases.
> Now you hit a good idea... the existence of a sanctuary and
Immediately. Do you have any idea the rate at which modern weapons expend
ammunition? Never mind food, water, etc.
> Obviously, the locals would have larger stores
Not obviously--prestrike intelligence should identify major locations
of ammunition storage and other militarily significant stockpiles.
> On May 13, 2008, at 2:41 PM, Ryan Gill wrote:
> Why do I see a Bolo coming into this?
Because the later marks are planetary siege units, as capable of destroying
the enemy in orbit as on the ground.
> At 5:09 PM -0500 5/13/08, John Atkinson wrote:
wrote:
> You see, John, my original comment was inspired by the reflection
I expect this, in a colonial configuration, will resemble the Cruiser treaty
limits of the Washington Treaty. The US with few colonies to
police wanted fewer/larger cruisers. Less places to show the flag, more
weight in any given location. The british however wanted much smaller cruiser
limits because they had FAR more places to go and far more places to police
over longer distances. So they looked for more weight over numerous hulls.
So, I would expect that nations like the OU with few colonies will have go for
the efficiency route. The NAC with a great many colonies and dominions will
probably have more compact as well as larger ships.
Though, I expect that there should be more provisions made for Marine
Detachments aboard some ships with a hanger for a drop shuttle out of askance
for reality vs all up gaming combat efficiency.
> Personally, I wouldn't drop a single battalion on anything populated
What if they're spread over a large area and any one town is more of a hamlet
than anything else? With the cost of telecommunications and presumably light
flyers, you could have a several thousand person population with just a few
people here and there that are mostly farmers. Your strategic positions like
the landing hard stands at the shuttle port could be staffed by as few as a
couple of employees who work part time and one full time who can't do much
more than call up the militia when the FSE starts landing.
> Except for very small colonies, stipulated. I make one of two
Sounds about right and what I've envisioned.
I would suspect, that with fiber optics, packet radio and a lot of other
methods of communication, you'd still have problems suppressing a population's
ability to coordinate downside unless you were willing to invest heavily in EW
capabilities which would probably be expensive to bring with you. You'd have
to pick which transmitters you jammed or which areas you jammed while being
careful not to give away too much.
I think too many comparisons to today will suffer form the fact that a future
combat scenario like we're talking about will have a LOT more communications
between forces both red and blue with more capabilities for jamming and ELINT
on the part of the dirt side defenders, even if they're mostly militia and
farmers. They may not be quick but they'll have some technologies edges that
will at least moderate the differences in size.
> Not obviously--prestrike intelligence should identify major locations
Assuming you get any or it's paid attention to. Remember we'll have instances
what bear more resemblance to Somalia in terms of ROE or objectives and
constraints and expectations where the major players will send forces in
expecting the Wogs to just roll over and for some reason they don't OR the
militia has more there than meets the eye. Whether that means there's a
counter balance to the invading expeditionary force OR there's merely a delay
as the expeditionary force get's it's bearings after taking some lickings is a
solid question.
> At 3:11 PM -0700 5/13/08, Michael Llaneza wrote:
I think I was thinking of one of the Bolo books where a prototype is on a
planet where there was a research facility who's location was lost in a
counter attack in a large exchange of fire in the core worlds. So, a forces
lands on a back water planet expecting militia and some light tanks and finds
that there's militia, light tanks and a Bolo in opposition, much to their
consternation.
The advantage of a bolo being low manpower requirements and large firepower,
of course the disadvantage being expense and cubage in shipping.
> John Atkinson wrote:
> >Obviously, the locals would have larger stores
Hm. We're talking about interstellar pre-strike intelligence with com
delays measured in days or weeks here, not intelligence about a place on
the same planet you start from where you already had a bunch of recon sats in
place months or years before the strike.
How do you get that interstellar up-to-date pre-strike intelligence?
Sending scoutships in advance or keeping the invasion force in orbit for
some time while trying to locate the defenders' stockpiles etc. sounds like a
good way to allow the defenders to get their act together before you go in.
Sending an undercover SF team to locate those stockpiles in advance of the
invasion fleet... well, there's that "small unsupported SF team on a
hostile planet" scenario again.
Regards,
> At 8:47 PM +0200 5/14/08, Oerjan Ariander wrote:
I guess industrial espionage and such. Though getting sat photos may or may
not be easy. I doubt the FSE would be able to get a Satellite to show
construction over an NSL or NAC planet for any length of time.
Or are we talking "last minute" pre strike Intel. Intel accumulated while the
team is in transit. I know I would want eyes on the target before making a
strike.
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Oerjan Ariander" <orjan.ariander1@comhem.se>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 12:47 PM
To: <gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [GZG] Still "colinies" :)
> John Atkinson wrote:
> like
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imagine that any sort of colonial strike forces would be highly mobile for
just these reasons. Heavier forces would be reserved for full invasion forces
or planetary forces on homeworlds or major colonies.
-Eli
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Oerjan Ariander <orjan.ariander1@comhem.se>
> John Atkinson wrote:
> >of ammunition storage and other militarily significant stockpiles.
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m..how about information warfare for this? Fly a disguised vessel into the
system, parked in orbit but with sophistocated EW systems. You could then
listen in on general communications and hack local nets so that when you
invasion force arrived you can feed them the most up to date information as
well as what has been gathered over time.
-Eli
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com>
> At 8:47 PM +0200 5/14/08, Oerjan Ariander wrote:
sounds like
> >a good way to allow the defenders to get their act together before
> At 8:28 PM +0000 5/14/08, emu2020@comcast.net wrote:
Likely traffic control is going to want to know what you're doing. Who you're
flagged under and what you're carrying. Just coming up and parking in orbit
will be a problem. Most systems unless VERY poor and
under staffed will ahve some revenue cutters/Orbit guard type stuff
that'll come in and check out any ships coming in plus naval auxiliaries.
That's not to say you can't come in with an armed merchantman and a whole
suite of Elint gear, but you'd better be prepared to be asked questions and
not dally too long for lack of some reason to be hanging around. If you're
mapping the surface in your orbit, it'll be a pretty specific pattern AND if
you spend too much time over sensitive places, you might be shooed away OR
boarded. Likely if there are sensitive installations, the coasties will have
those orbits off limits OR restricted.
All this is really LOTs of chances for Rock Scissors Paper where it comes to
gear, tactics and counter measures.
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initely. It was not my intent to say you could come in an make an obvious run
of things. But there are bound to be times when you are allowed to park in
orbit for extended periods of times. During these times you make use of
whatver resources you have to get as much as you can. You can also disperse
spy sats an probes on your way in. There is bound to be enough clutter in any
civilized system to mask most passive sensors and such. It's not perfect, but
there is definitely a good opportunity to gain intel ahead of time by using
sneakers sort of like the spy fishing boats used widely during the Cold War.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com>
> At 8:28 PM +0000 5/14/08, emu2020@comcast.net wrote:
Likely if
> there are sensitive installations, the coasties will have those orbits
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 1:47 PM, Oerjan Ariander
> <orjan.ariander1@comhem.se> wrote:
Well, a lot depends. The more spread-out a population is, the more
dependant it will be on communications links that can be tapped by the same
stealthed stuff folks are planning on using to support their insurgents. If
it's not so spread out, there's a limit to how much dispersal you can have.
You're also going to have a lot of your final operations plans being on an 'on
order' basis rather than having the details hammered out to the Nth degree
until you make transit into the system and get the data dump from your spies
and steathed surveillance craft and special forces teams and whatever else.
> in. Sending an undercover SF team to locate those stockpiles in
Folks have been running spy networks for thousands of years, I doubt
interstellar travel will change that fact.
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Tue, May 13, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Michael Llaneza <maserati@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> On May 13, 2008, at 2:41 PM, Ryan Gill wrote:
An amusing asymmetrical scenario would be an agricltural colony (genengineered
plants produce very important pharmaceutical) that is defended by a handful of
antiquated Bolo agriculural units ( A MKXIV line unit with the indirect fire
capabilities removed and the addition of power take off equipment, a three
point hitch, and an earth moving blade. The resultant irresistable force was
advertised as a 'tractor', but retained its 4 megaton per second direct fire
weaponry [apologies to the original text]). The tricky bit is that the
invaders' have the miserable situation of not being able to scrounge up their
own farming equipment before the defenders have exported the harvest, so the
Bolos must be secured in a
reparable-to-fully-mobile condition.
Other frontier colonies will present the same problem in different degrees. A
mining concern will present the problem that they will have remotely
controlled equipment with the sort of teeth that armor only determines the
slowness of the hapless soldier's death, along with plenty of places to set an
ambush. A situation made worse by the inability of the attacker to