http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Ha%27tak
I'm trying to decide how I want to simulate the Ha'tak. At one point, it was
the sort of invulnerable ship that you needed to flee from or else sneak a
bomb into. At other times, like later in the series when they had Ori and the
Daedelus class BCs, it seemed like it could be matched up and (in the case of
the Ori) overmatched.
One of the interesting things from the above link is mentioning 60 staff
cannons. Now, a staff cannon (in ground terms) is a portable infantry support
weapon. I guess these are larger versions of that technology. But the odd part
appears to be they can reconfigure the system to yield different firing
profiles.
I had thought of simulating it by buying a mass of 'Goa'uld Ship Cannons' (aka
beams). The interesting twist was going to be that you could decide, in any
given turn, how you combine the mass to define actual beam weapon types at
firing time. The only limit I would (perhaps?) apply is that they all have the
360 arc since that seems to be the intent of the weapon layout on the Ha'tak.
For instance 60 mass as....
60 x B-1
20 x B-2
8 x B-3 + 2 x B-2
I'm not sure, as long as I make them all have the same 360 degree arc and thus
you have the same mass of beams and beams are 3 per mass, that I need to do
anything else to account for this configurability in terms of costing. Maybe
the flexibility should have a cost? If so, any suggestions on what that might
be worth?
This would seem to give the Goa'uld player some interesting decisions at the
beginning of each turn (or when firing). Of course, the other question is do
you have to pick a configuration at the start of the turn when plotting orders
or at the time of firing? That might affect the costing of the flexibility,
because if you pick at the beginning of the turn, you still have to guess what
configuration will be the most useful. If you do it at firing time, you always
pick the optimal configuration for the range.
Obviously, I'd be interested in opinions.
TomB
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn Wed, Jan 20,
> 2010 at 10:30 AM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Ha%27tak
Just off the cuff, I see the Goa'uld player devolving to four options:
1) "Target within 12 mu, my Lord." "Rig staff weapons to B1 and fire!"
2) "Target outside of optimal B1 range, my Lord, but within 24 mu." "<eyes
glow> Rig staff weapons to B2 and fire, my minion!"
3) "Target outside optimal B1 and B2 configurations, my Lord, but within 36
mu."
"<scowl> Rig staff weapons to B3 and fire. Remaining staff weapons unable to
reconfigure are to engage any secondary targets. If this is not possible, kill
the weapons crews."
4) "Target is out side of optimal B1, B2 AND B3 range, my - gurrrk!
<falls dead>" "<eyes flash> Navigator, get me closer to that ship! Or..."
"Y-y-yes, my Lord!"
Mk
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lWhat you have
created is a very powerful configuration.
As you convert mass 60 of weapons do they all ahve to convert into 360 arc
weapons or can they convert into a weapon that fires in one arc that
conveniently faces in the direction you want to shoot.
I can see it playing out thussly on a rolling table.
Configure weapons into maxmum number of weapons that bear in one rear arc with
long range firepower. Turn so that the target is in side rear arc, accelerate
away so the range is opened while taking the shots. IIRC
thats not very aligned with how the ships play out in the SG-1 universe.
IIRC ships seemed to FTL in and then take up relatively static positions and
bombard their opponents into submission or die.
I think Pulsars are a better option. The ship commander has a critical
decision abotu how to configure their weapons and therefore conduct the fight
but don't get to do it on a turn by turn basis.
________________________________
From: Indy <indy.kochte@gmail.com>
To: gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
Sent: Thu, 21 January, 2010 7:50:43 AM
Subject: Re: [GZG] Stargate Conversion: Goa'uld Ha'tak
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Ha%27tak
> I'm trying to decide how I want to simulate the Ha'tak. At one point,
Just off the cuff, I see the Goa'uld player devolving to four options:
1) "Target within 12 mu, my Lord." "Rig staff weapons to B1 and fire!"
2) "Target outside of optimal B1 range, my Lord, but within 24 mu." "<eyes
glow> Rig staff weapons to B2 and fire, my minion!"
3) "Target outside optimal B1 and B2 configurations, my Lord, but within 36
mu." "<scowl> Rig staff weapons to B3 and fire. Remaining staff weapons unable
to reconfigure are to engage any secondary targets. If this is not possible,
kill the weapons crews."
4) "Target is out side of optimal B1, B2 AND B3 range, my - gurrrk!
<falls dead>" "<eyes flash> Navigator, get me closer to that ship! Or..."
"Y-y-yes, my Lord!"
Mk
> At 11:35 AM -0800 1/20/10, John Tailby wrote:
> IIRC ships seemed to FTL in and then take up relatively static
They also seem to have a hard time getting a bead on fast moving ships.
USually putting rounds on those ships by mass of fire. Look at when the
Prometheus takes them on, sort of, and flys rings around them.
So what are the Aasgard Beams and Ori Bemas going to be like?
> 4) "Target is out side of optimal B1, B2 AND B3 range, my - gurrrk!
Just wanted to remind all of Indy's main point; when in doubt, kill
subordinates. Enemies are entirely a side issue.
The_Beast
Mark:
Yes. But if you have to configure it at the beginning of the turn and are
playing cinematic, you've still got some guesswork as you and your target both
move before you have to fire. If you configure at firing time, yes, you'd
always get optimal.
John:
1) Everything 360 to put all weapons on the same basis. If you read the HTML
link, they mention that they can reconfigure their firepower on the fly and
this is due to the spherical weapons arrangement they have or something like
that. And to avoid total cheese, that restriction is also important. This
neatly avoids any particular manipulation of the mass towards a single arc
solution.
Also, having to choose at the start of a turn might mean uncertainty as to
what weapons fit is the best. If not, that's fine, you still payed the mass
for 360 with all the ones you chose, which makes the cost you paid for the
dice you do rather standard.
2) Ships manouvered a lot more in later seasons and in the movies. I even saw
Ha'taks doing some crazy flying when T'ealc was battling Goa'uld System Lord
ships from a Ha'tak in one episode and also when they were fighting the Ori.
3) As to the suggestion of how you could fight the Goa'uld ships.... there is
a nearly infinite difference between what a ship is technically claimed
capable of and what they actually have it do in an episode. Any capabilities
of any technology or vessel vary as required
to tell a good yarn about SG-1 or Colonel Shepherd's team.
If you put Pulsars on and wedged them in that rear arc, you could do the same
thing. If I force the beams to be 360 in any configuration,
then you can't abuse the mass/arc relationships and you can do more or
less what you see in the show as far as I can see.
I'm not saying Pulsars won't work, but you won't have the ability to
dynamically reconfigure the weapons array like these ships are supposed to
have.
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lDepends how you
do the technologies.
If you do an analogy that has pulse weapons being things like railguns and
pulse torpedos and continuous weapons that fire streams of energy being beam
weapons then you get one set of interpretations if you do a different
interpreation you get another result...
Using the FT fleet book technologies you would have to allocaet the msot
powerful types to the Ori and Aagard, so probably grazers.
Then so on down the technology slope.
One thing that FT doesn't do very well is simulate different technology
levels. Everything is about the same level of tech. Starmada seems to handle
the technology tree a bit better.
________________________________
From: Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com>
To: gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
Sent: Thu, 21 January, 2010 8:40:09 AM
Subject: Re: [GZG] Stargate Conversion: Goa'uld Ha'tak
> At 11:35 AM -0800 1/20/10, John Tailby wrote:
> IIRC ships seemed to FTL in and then take up relatively static
They also seem to have a hard time getting a bead on fast moving ships.
USually putting rounds on those ships by mass of fire. Look at when the
Prometheus takes them on, sort of, and flys rings around them.
So what are the Aasgard Beams and Ori Bemas going to be like?
Inestimable Beast sayeth:
Just wanted to remind all of Indy's main point; when in doubt, kill
subordinates. Enemies are entirely a side issue.
The_Beast
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn Wed, Jan 20,
> 2010 at 2:51 PM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark:
Usually very little if you're reasonably experienced with FT playing. Given
your velocity and your opponents, they are either going to be in one range
band or the other, and it's usually not terribly hard to figure out which.
If you configure at firing
> time, yes, you'd always get optimal.
And then there's that!
> John:
Configuring on the fly suggests to me configuring at the time of firing. Hence
always optimal configuration every turn.
> Also, having to choose at the start of a turn might mean uncertainty
T'ealc learned from the Hu'mans. :-)
> 3) As to the suggestion of how you could fight the Goa'uld ships....
Yep. As with almost any show or movie. B5, iirc, is one of the few that came
the closest to keeping things the same throughout (once introduced on the
table, that is).
> If you put Pulsars on and wedged them in that rear arc, you could do
And as John stated, having that dynamic reconfiguration capability makes them
damned powerful for the current flavors of FT weaponry. Without doing a
numbers churn (not my thing), I would at the very least double the mass (and
cost) of said weapon system as compared to the equivalent beam.
Mk
Ryan,
You have to make some judgements because FT ship construction may consider
more than one turret in SG to be a single battery or it may allocate different
crew numbers, etc. So it's all a guesswork to try to get the feel right. And
I'm not trying to match them to conventional FB navies. Also, source materials
vary in information and don't always agree.
So far I've done the Prometheus and the Daedelus (X-303 and X-304
classes). I also did the Achilles (X-305 in my books).
http://www.thescifiworld.net/img/wallpapers/stargate/animaniac/animaniac
_66_1280x960.jpg
So, that said, first cut:
X-303 Prometheus Deep Space Battlecruiser
Mass 160
8 x Railgun Batteries (K-1, 360)
2 x Missile Batteries (SML, 2 salvos per, Front 180) 47 Hull in 6 Rows, 14
Shields (regenerating armour) MD 4, FTL, Normal Sensors 1 ADFC (applies to
railguns in PD mode and PDS) 2 PDS (CIWS) 3 FCs
8 F-302s in two bays, 2 squadrons of 4
2 Asgard Beaming Modules 1 Goa'uld Ring Transporter 2 small hangar bays
6 Core Systems (Normal + beaming systems, shield generator, and
sensors/comms)
X-304 Daedelus Deep Space Carrier
Mass 265
12 x Railgun Batteries (K-1, 360)
4 x Asgard Beams (F arc, Graser class 2) 2 x Missile Batteries (SML, 2 salvos
per, Front 180) 60 Hull in 5 Rows, 25 Shields (regenerating armour) MD 4, FTL,
Normal Sensors 1 ADFC (applies to railguns in PD mode) 4 FCs
16 F-302s in two bays, 4 squadrons of 4
4 Asgard Beaming Modules 1 Goa'uld Ring Transporter 2 small hangar bays Asgard
Sensors (lets you see a lot of the other guys SSD)
6 Core Systems (Normal + beaming systems, shield generator, and
sensors/comms)
X-305 Achilles Deep Space Battleship [INCOMPLETE]
Mass ???
14 x Railgun Batteries (K-1, 360)
8 x Railgun Batteries (K-2, 3x F/PF/PA, 3x F/SF/SA, 1x PF/PA/A, 1x
SF/SA/A)
Not sure if it should have Asgard Beams
2 x Missile Batteries (SML-ER, 2 salvos per, Front 180)
??? Hull in 4 Rows, 30 Shields (regenerating armour) MD 4, FTL, Normal Sensors
1 ADFC (applies to railguns in PD mode) 5 FCs
24 F-302s in two bays, 6 squadrons of 4
6 Asgard Beaming Modules 2 Goa'uld Ring Transporter 2 small hangar bays Asgard
Sensors (lets you see a lot of the other guys SSD)
6 Core Systems (Normal + beaming systems, shield generator, and
sensors/comms)
The notional Ha'tak looks (right now) like Mass 400. In addition to the 60
mass of dynamically configurable beams, it carries 2000 goa'uld troops, 15
ring transporters, 3 squadrons of Al'kesh bombers (torpedo fighters) and 12
squadrons of death gliders (regular fighters).
I haven't got to the Ori yet, but I was weighing a classed Nova Cannon, an
HDC, or a massive Heavy Beam (EFSB).
Of course, I need to get the 4 304s, the 303, and the 4 Ha'taks assembled and
painted along with the 3 Wraith Cruisers and the Hive Ship and the Ori
Mothership before I can go into much testing.
I just wish someone in England would make me some not-F-302 and
not-puddle-jumpers and not-death-gliders and not-wraith-Darts. I might
be able to use some of the not-Centauri for the death gliders. But the
302 is a fairly unique shape as are puddle jumpers. The irony is we have Not
(UNSC) Hammerheads from a short lived and relatively paintul
series and no sign of not(various ships) from the longest sci-fi
serious other than the one starring Lethbridge Stewart. I think the English
are still mad about that. <grin>
Wraith I was going to actually consider some needle beams, given their
interest in capturing prey. Probably standard beams or the like too since they
seem to do ship destruction as well. Maybe a Pulser there. They have their
Darts. And they have piles of hull (at least on the hive).
The Asgard get Grasers, sensors that see a lot and heavy shields and asgard
beaming systems (aka 'transporter').
The Ancient Drones are pretty potent stuff. Swarms of Fast, Attack Fighters
might represent them with successful attacks destroying some of them. Maybe
Torpedo Fighters, depending on how the numbers work out.They seem to be able
to destroy more than one ship and be flown around like a fighter.
Anubis Ha'tak might get a huge HDC or Nova Cannon - the special weapon
on it could wipe out a continent or multiple ships in one shot. But like the
Wave Motion Gun, it had a power up time.
I haven't thought much about Replicators because they are the atomic
weapon....
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lHi Tom
http://www.warlords.org.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?t=229
This thread holds a copy of the rules and technologies that we play with.
There are some intersting ideas that you might want to look at if you want
mega weapons and different types of beams and topedo weapons.
If you want to stick with a Fleet book based weapon a class 6 Plasma bolt
might do nicely as a mega death weapon.
________________________________
From: Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com>
To: gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
Sent: Thu, 21 January, 2010 9:35:40 AM
Subject: Re: [GZG] Stargate Conversion: Goa'uld Ha'tak
Ryan,
You have to make some judgements because FT ship construction may consider
more than one turret in SG to be a single battery or it may allocate different
crew numbers, etc. So it's all a guesswork to try to get the feel right. And
I'm not trying to match them to conventional FB navies. Also, source materials
vary in information and don't always agree.
So far I've done the Prometheus and the Daedelus (X-303 and X-304
classes). I also did the Achilles (X-305 in my books).
http://www.thescifiworld.net/img/wallpapers/stargate/animaniac/animaniac
_66_1280x960.jpg
So, that said, first cut:
X-303 Prometheus Deep Space Battlecruiser
Mass 160
8 x Railgun Batteries (K-1, 360)
2 x Missile Batteries (SML, 2 salvos per, Front 180) 47 Hull in 6 Rows, 14
Shields (regenerating armour) MD 4, FTL, Normal Sensors 1 ADFC (applies to
railguns in PD mode and PDS) 2 PDS (CIWS) 3 FCs
8 F-302s in two bays, 2 squadrons of 4
2 Asgard Beaming Modules 1 Goa'uld Ring Transporter 2 small hangar bays
6 Core Systems (Normal + beaming systems, shield generator, and
sensors/comms)
X-304 Daedelus Deep Space Carrier
Mass 265
12 x Railgun Batteries (K-1, 360)
4 x Asgard Beams (F arc, Graser class 2) 2 x Missile Batteries (SML, 2 salvos
per, Front 180) 60 Hull in 5 Rows, 25 Shields (regenerating armour) MD 4, FTL,
Normal Sensors 1 ADFC (applies to railguns in PD mode) 4 FCs
16 F-302s in two bays, 4 squadrons of 4
4 Asgard Beaming Modules 1 Goa'uld Ring Transporter 2 small hangar bays Asgard
Sensors (lets you see a lot of the other guys SSD)
6 Core Systems (Normal + beaming systems, shield generator, and
sensors/comms)
X-305 Achilles Deep Space Battleship [INCOMPLETE]
Mass ???
14 x Railgun Batteries (K-1, 360)
8 x Railgun Batteries (K-2, 3x F/PF/PA, 3x F/SF/SA, 1x PF/PA/A, 1x
SF/SA/A)
Not sure if it should have Asgard Beams
2 x Missile Batteries (SML-ER, 2 salvos per, Front 180)
??? Hull in 4 Rows, 30 Shields (regenerating armour) MD 4, FTL, Normal Sensors
1 ADFC (applies to railguns in PD mode) 5 FCs
24 F-302s in two bays, 6 squadrons of 4
6 Asgard Beaming Modules 2 Goa'uld Ring Transporter 2 small hangar bays Asgard
Sensors (lets you see a lot of the other guys SSD)
6 Core Systems (Normal + beaming systems, shield generator, and
sensors/comms)
The notional Ha'tak looks (right now) like Mass 400. In addition to the 60
mass of dynamically configurable beams, it carries 2000 goa'uld troops, 15
ring transporters, 3 squadrons of Al'kesh bombers (torpedo fighters) and 12
squadrons of death gliders (regular fighters).
I haven't got to the Ori yet, but I was weighing a classed Nova Cannon, an
HDC, or a massive Heavy Beam (EFSB).
Of course, I need to get the 4 304s, the 303, and the 4 Ha'taks assembled and
painted along with the 3 Wraith Cruisers and the Hive Ship and the Ori
Mothership before I can go into much testing.
I just wish someone in England would make me some not-F-302 and
not-puddle-jumpers and not-death-gliders and not-wraith-Darts. I might
be able to use some of the not-Centauri for the death gliders. But the
302 is a fairly unique shape as are puddle jumpers. The irony is we have Not
(UNSC) Hammerheads from a short lived and relatively paintul
series and no sign of not(various ships) from the longest sci-fi
serious other than the one starring Lethbridge Stewart. I think the English
are still mad about that. <grin>
Wraith I was going to actually consider some needle beams, given their
interest in capturing prey. Probably standard beams or the like too since they
seem to do ship destruction as well. Maybe a Pulser there. They have their
Darts. And they have piles of hull (at least on the hive).
The Asgard get Grasers, sensors that see a lot and heavy shields and asgard
beaming systems (aka 'transporter').
The Ancient Drones are pretty potent stuff. Swarms of Fast, Attack Fighters
might represent them with successful attacks destroying some of them. Maybe
Torpedo Fighters, depending on how the numbers work out.They seem to be able
to destroy more than one ship and be flown around like a fighter.
Anubis Ha'tak might get a huge HDC or Nova Cannon - the special weapon
on it could wipe out a continent or multiple ships in one shot. But like the
Wave Motion Gun, it had a power up time.
I haven't thought much about Replicators because they are the atomic
weapon....
Take 2, *without* the finger slipping.
Tom, Here's an old idea from a few years ago that Laserlight threw up:
http://home.pacific.net.au/~southernsk/ft/machines.htm
Allow DC parties to break down existing weapons and then rebuild them. Since
it takes 2 turns to turn one weapon into a different weapon (and may take
longer depending on your DC rolls) they can still be reconfigured, but the
penalty is the *time* it takes to do so.
Brendan 'Neath Southern Skies
http://home.pacific.net.au/~southernsk/
[quoted original message omitted]
Okay, after some work and thinking, I have been swayed by some arguments.
(See, it is possible!)
My Ha'tak Mothership now looks like: Mass 400, Hull 63 in 4 rows, Shields 24
(regenerative armour), MD 4, FTL, 3 FCs,15 Ring Transporters, 20 spaces of
cargo for troops (probably about 40 crew units worth), 3 torpedo (al'kesh
bomber)
squadrons, 12 death glider squadrons, 20 3-arc pulsers (5 AP/FP/F, 5
AS/FS/F, 5 AS/A/AP).
This gives the ability to fire 10 of the pulsers in 3 of the arcs and 5 in
each of the others... sort of a limited overlap with their 'hemispherical
layout' and it does sort of conjure to mind a 3 sided pyrmaid ship where (at
your whim) either the edges or the points are more dangerous.
To give the 'reconfigurability' without it being grotesque, I think I'll allow
the Goa'uld player to reset one pulser's mode at the start of each turn for
every crew unit he devotes to the task (which can then not be used as a DCP).
This means he probably won't be reconfiguring more than 4 or 5 in a round, at
a guess.
I think that might be a bit more evenhanded of a treatment.
Tomb