[GZG] Shipping sheep

> Message: 3

Didn't thought about that!! I really am a new guy when talking about
sheep.... :)

But, I would say, sheep, to be sheep, should be live sheep... embryos just
would not do... but I admit they would be the smart way to go, otherwise, we
would need a whole sheepping line to move so many heads...

> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:53:19AM +0200, Enzo de Ianni wrote:

> But, I would say, sheep, to be sheep, should be live sheep... embryos

For six trivia points, which SF game setting had a ship listing for a live
animal transport?

R

Was there ever a game for the V miniseries? If so, then any human ship could
be considered livestock transport.

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Roger Burton West <roger@firedrake.org>
wrote:
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:53:19AM +0200, Enzo de Ianni wrote:

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Roger Burton West <roger@firedrake.org>
wrote:
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:53:19AM +0200, Enzo de Ianni wrote:

It had to have been Traveller.

> From what I've seen of the Trav background(s) there was a ship for

What do I win?:)

> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:53:19AM +0200, Enzo de Ianni wrote:

Without digging my books out, either Traveller or Traveller 2300. I'm sure I
recall a livestock transport, and "Vaca Class" sticks in my mind..... I just
can't remember which incarnation of the game it was
in.....

Of course, we now have our own "Merino Class" for the GZG-verse.....
;-)

> For six trivia points, which SF game setting had a ship listing for a

Albedo? ;->=

The_Beast

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Traveller Supplement 7 - Traders and Gunboats, the Empress Marava far
trader is specifically listed as having extra large low berths (Cryo units)
for the transport of live stock. Though how they got the live stock up the 5'
square elevator and down the 5' wide corridor and through the doorway (with
its 90 degree turn from the hall) was never adequately explained.

And Star Frontiers had dedicated ag ships for hauling produce and animals,
also.

> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:53:19AM +0200, Enzo de Ianni wrote:

> For six trivia points, which SF game setting had a ship listing for a

"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser
beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say
we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button for
our fire control system"

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> On May16 08, at 12:57, Peter Engebos wrote:

> In Traveller Supplement 7 - Traders and Gunboats, the Empress

Er, the low berths are right next to the Starboard Cargo lock/ramp.

Evyn MacDude infojunky@ceecom.net

"When a meeting, or part thereof, is held under the Chatham House Rule,
participants are free to use the information received, but neither the
identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that of any other
participant, may be revealed"

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Peter Engebos <manfredvonbek@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> In Traveller Supplement 7 - Traders and Gunboats, the Empress Marava

Apparently there's a similar issue with the scout courier in Mongoose's new
version of Traveller. From what I read on the rpg forums, the airlock is
situated in such a position that it can't actually be used...

> On Fri, 16 May 2008, Peter Engebos wrote:

> In Traveller Supplement 7 - Traders and Gunboats, the Empress Marava

Say, does Ortillery Command drop frozen cows from orbit?   Burgers and
Bar-B-Q
fresh and REALLY Hot?

And to blow off steam, do you drop giant wooden badgers from orbit?

And minstrals too?

> On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 12:57:08PM -0700, Peter Engebos wrote:

Interesting; I hadn't remembered that one. I was actually thinking of the Vaca
class from 2300AD (in Ships of the French Arm), which has to do it with spin
gravity.

That would make for an interesting meat market. I'm not convinced that
mass transport of livestock (vs raising it on-site) is economically
viable, but I'm still running the numbers so I'm not sure. But if it *IS*
viable, then you get a weird case where livestock might be graded
based on where on the ship they were kept-- veal in low gravity or
even free-fall, and tougher cows in the high-grav area.

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Roger Burton West <roger@firedrake.org>
wrote:
> On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 12:57:08PM -0700, Peter Engebos wrote:

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n I first mentioned this, my mind turned not to commercial ventures, but
more to support the start-up of colonies. By sending frozen embryos
instead of livestock, you reduce the overall weight and cargo needed for
livestock for the transit which ultimately will keep costs down for such
ventures. Once on site, you can then go into full embryo growth and maturity
using whatver technology you have for the setting. This of course assumes that
you can nourish your sheep from suppliments and synthetic protiens and such
until you have established conventional agriculture.

Of course I having nothing scientific to base this on, but then again,
I'm a sci-fi fan, not a scientist.

-Eli

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Robert Mayberry" <robert.mayberry@gmail.com>

> That would make for an interesting meat market. I'm not convinced that

> mass transport of livestock (vs raising it on-site) is economically

> based on where on the ship they were kept-- veal in low gravity or

I would suspect that given how modern beef isn't shipped on the hoof long
distances like it was before easy and relatively cheap cold storage came
along. It stands to reason that if you have sufficient cryosleep systems to
keep people alie and thaw them easily, then thered be easy and cheap
cryostorage for meats. There would be ways to ship live cattle but likely as
embryos would be far more cheap.

--
Ryan Gill sent from my treo

[quoted original message omitted]

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> Mon, May 19, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Ryan GIll <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I would suspect that given how modern beef isn't shipped on the hoof

Yeah, but on Babylon 5, you can't get eggs shipped out to Epsilon Eridani very
easily (never could figure that one out).

Mk

> On Mon, 19 May 2008, Indy wrote:

> Yeah, but on Babylon 5, you can't get eggs shipped out to Epsilon

I thought that was due to the freshness problem vs mass. I can ship 1 dozen
eggs fresh or prepacked freeze dried egg powder 30 dozen in the same space.
Then the eggs are only good for a week or two of shipping while the powder is
good for two to three months...

B5 didn't define the difference between military and civilian travel very
well. It took the White Star 48 hours to jump from B5 to Earth, but I don't
remember if we were told directly how long a civilian cargo transport would
take.

Jump speed was directly proportional to plot needs.

it only took the White Star ~24 hours to make it to Za Ha Dun yet it took the
Icarus months
> Yeah, but on Babylon 5, you can't get eggs shipped out to Epsilon

> dozen

> don't

Agreed, it was noted that you could get Salami and preserved meats but not
fresh stuff.

> Jump speed was directly proportional to plot needs.

A very good point. And probably the biggest reason why it's so difficult to
write a game that "accurately" reflects a setting from a
movie or TV series (or even some books).....  ;-)

Jon (GZG)

> it only took the White Star ~24 hours to make it to Za Ha Dun yet it

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> n tailby wrote:

> B5 didn't define the difference between military and civilian travel
who knew where to go and wanted to go directly rather than a civilian explorer
ship that approached slowly, possibly having to grope its way through unknown
space, taking measurments and recordings as they went;
possible use of beacons that weren't active when the /Icarus/ came
through because the Shadows were still waking up -- but it's all after
the fact rationalisation, and the fact is that B5 had the usual TV show
problem of not thinking much about details like travel time (or, in its
early episodes, the /mechanics/).

John has it right: B5 spacecraft move at the "speed of plot".

Phil

You mean to tell me that in all the space on B5,nobody thought to import and
keep a few hens for laying?

-Eli

[quoted original message omitted]

We are supposing that the chickens would be raised, kept in the same
conditions they are today. Yes, you would likely need to have them housed in a
warehouse style, but the effects of the chickens byproducts could be minimized
chemically or enzymatically.

If you assume that advances in chemical and enzyme treatments go along with
that of space travel and technology, then it's not hard to assume you can
collect and neutralize the waste of the chickens and keep it odorless. In
fact, the chicken waste products could be worked into a station/colony's
power supplies and reclamation systems. Bird droppings are pretty mineral
heavy (depending on diet) and good source of potassium nitrate. Heck, chicken
egg shells can be used as a calcium supplement simply by baking them, crushing
them up, and mixing them into food.

-Eli

> On May 14, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Enzo de Ianni wrote:

Best bet would be to ship a handful of females and lots of embryos. The
females
can boot-strap the population using the canned embryos.

That way you have a few live sheep and TENS OF THOUSANDS of potential sheep on
board.

> On May 20, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Eli Arndt wrote:

The station was big enough to have an under-city and entire sections
virtually abandoned, after all.

You know, it could have just been some bureaucratic regulation. Never blame on
conspiracy what you can blame on human stupidity.

JGH

> Robert Crawford wrote:

One logical reason I can think of for banning livestock, at least on the
station proper, is the worry about disease. If you consider the traffic come
through a station like B5 and the diversity of life that makes it way through
there, the possibility of catastrophic infection is great to begin with. Add
to this livestock, from which humanity has acquired so many of its lethal
diseases and this could be one reason to regulate any sort of livestock right
out of the picture.

-Eli

> Eli Arndt wrote:
I agree. B5 is a human-built and -controlled station, but it is, by
design and intent, a multi-species environment in which dozens of
different sentient races meet and interact daily. It's a nightmare from the
PoV of medical staff worried about potential epidemics, as was shown

in the S2 episode "Confessions and Lamentations" when the Markab plague began
to spread to other races. The last thing they need to worry about is further
potential disease vectors in the form of livestock. To add to

that, again given B5's basic role, the yes-or-no decision would have to
be for _everyone's_ livestock, not just Earth animals. If one race has
food animals there, all the others would have to be allowed to have theirs as
well. And they thought the Pak'ma'ra were bad...!

Phil

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Wed, May 21, 2008 at 7:11 AM, Phillip Atcliffe <atcliffe@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Eli Arndt wrote:

This is probably the best set of points I've heard for their not having
fresh eggs on B5. :-)  Thanks.

Now, what about orange juice?  :-D

Mk

The Tang cartel has grown to such proportions that no natural orange juice can
move through interstellar space without an interstellar smuggling organization
of mafia reach...

The_Beast

Indy wrote on 05/21/2008 07:30:42 AM:

***snippage***

> This is probably the best set of points I've heard for their not

> Indy wrote:

Phil

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Wed, May 21, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Phillip Atcliffe <atcliffe@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Indy wrote:
because
> B5 has lots of plants for oxygen reclamation, so an orchard would be

I may be misremembering, but I thought there was an issue about fresh orange
juice, too.

Maybe that was aboard the Agamemnon.

I *do* remember there being issues with fresh coffee beans.

Mk

I know JMZ seemed to cherish the challenges by the fan base, still, on
listservs, I was reminded of a section from David Gerrold's World of Star
Trek, where he's asking Roddenbery about some arcane fact, probably the use of
'mark' when giving courses, and the Great Bird says something like 'it sounded
military'.

Then he stops, turns to Gerrold and says something like 'You know, we never
really thought this stuff out until you started asking these questions' and he
sounded like he was getting frustrated by the process. Almost pissed
off, actually...  ;->=

The_Beast

Indy wrote on 05/21/2008 10:39:45 AM:

> [quoted text omitted]

> On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Phillip Atcliffe
because
> B5 has lots of plants for oxygen reclamation, so an orchard would be

> At 12:37 PM -0500 5/21/08, Doug Evans wrote:

I thought the coordinate system was degrees on a sphere. After mark being the
elevation.

I think eventually they decided something like that, though if you look at the
Franz Joseph stuff, it's incremented 400, not 360 degrees....

Actually, I'm not sure that was the point being discussed at the time; I can't
find any of my copies of the book. Don't ask how I ended up with
several. Packrat-itis.

The_Beast

Ryan wrote on 05/21/2008 01:05:42 PM:

> At 12:37 PM -0500 5/21/08, Doug Evans wrote:

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think the revived Battlestar Galactica uses a similar nomenclature, with the
term "keram" (sp?) denoting elevation: "Bogie bearing one four two keram
twenty."

Ken

Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu> wrote: I think eventually they decided
something like that, though if you look at the Franz Joseph stuff, it's
incremented 400, not 360 degrees....

Actually, I'm not sure that was the point being discussed at the time; I can't
find any of my copies of the book. Don't ask how I ended up with
several. Packrat-itis.

The_Beast

Ryan wrote on 05/21/2008 01:05:42 PM:

> At 12:37 PM -0500 5/21/08, Doug Evans wrote:

There is in fact a unit of angular measurement in which there are 400
units in a circle. It is known as the "grad": http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Grad_%28angle%29

It's never really taken off, but it has some use in surveying.

The swedish military uses these, they are called "new degrees" here.:)

Robert N Bryett said:
> There is in fact a unit of angular measurement in which

According to my brother the "Undergrad" carries all the equipment, while the
"Grad" waves his arms and writes stuff down. Or so it was when he was
considering Surveying as a career.

> On 22/05/2008, at 22:35 , Magnus Alexandersson wrote:

Well grads *do* make a lot of sense in many ways. It's certainly a lot easier
to do bearing calculations in your head.

> On 23/05/2008, at 06:26 , davebill@clear.net.nz wrote:

> According to my brother the "Undergrad" carries all the equipment,

In the days before surveying equipment went electronic, the traditional social
hierarchy was:

1. The Observer: Actually operates the level, theodolite etc., and
reads off the results to the Booker. Uses hand-signals to instruct
the Staffman (see below, way below). Does not carry the equipment (may, if
especially conscientious, carry the actual instrument as an expression of
distrust in his colleagues' clumsiness). In wet weather (I worked as a
surveyor in England), will have a golf umbrella held over him by:

2. The Booker: Stands next to the Observer to hold the umbrella. Incidentally
juggles a notebook and pencil to write down the Observer's readings. May gain
some shelter from the umbrella, but more likely to have drips from the edge go
down his neck and all over his notebook. Responsible for all errors in the
readings not attributable to the ineptitude of the Staffman, especially if the
Observer is a Principal or Senior (in government service) or a partner (in
private practice). Carries the tripod (heavy, muddy and designed to trap
fingers) and any other gear from station to station. While so occupied, the
Observer will hold the umbrella over his own head, since the Booker will have
both hands full.

3. The Staffman: Sometimes known as the Assistant. Drags out the chain, holds
the other end of the tape; carries, positions and collects at the end of the
day the arrows and targets; supports the heavy telescopic staff used in
levelling. Needs both hands, so no
umbrella. Scrambles over broken ground and deep mud, through thorn-
bushes, across streams etc. Fends off curious sheep, incontinent cows and
aggressive dogs. Peers through the rain at the barely visible
Observer in a futile attempt to discern his hand-signals. Relays chip
butties and mugs of tea, lifts manhole covers, load and unloads the vehicle
etc. etc.