[GZG] Re: Anyone out there???

> On Sun, Jul 09, 2006 at 09:00:32PM -0600, Matthew L. Seidl wrote:

> Its fine to go back to the main list. Its working, although I suspect

And when I find out about this - please, email me directly rather than
relying on my always being up to date with the list traffic! - I
reset the alias so that postings to my list get sent via Matthew's.

R

> Web Forums usually lack threading so following a topic can be

Huh? It's actually the other way around. Webforums usually have (in all but
the most primative) thread ONLY posting. I find email having the most annoying
non threading.

Jaim

Funny how we all are so different. I fell the oposite. I find it a pain to try
and follow a line of discussion in these emails and on a forum the threads are
quite easy, you open the thread and read down the replies. Simple and clean.

dafrca

[quoted original message omitted]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:28:22 +0100, Jaime Tiampo
> <fugugaipan@spikyfishthing.com> wrote:

> Web Forums usually lack threading so following a topic can be

Um, well the GZG forum under question is one of those most primitive ones
then. Every post in a "thread" is listed in chronological order with no

indication of which post it's a reply to, and hence no branching and no

way to follow just one thread out of the many that may arise from a single
starting post.

> I find email having the most annoying non threading.

Depends entirely on your e-mail client. It's one of the major failings
in several mail clients and webmail services (including Gmail which is ironic
as Google Groups has a fully threaded view) but not all.

> Um, well the GZG forum under question is one of those most primitive

Ah, I see we have a different definition of threading then. Then by your
definition yes, forums don't do that kind of threading. In fact, I'm glad they
don't. I find that kind of branching discussion the most annoying possible.
That's what starting a new thread is for once the idea is brought up.

> I find email having the most annoying non threading.

See abouve on my view of "threaded" discussions

> On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 09:33:19AM -0700, Jaime Tiampo wrote:

> Ah, I see we have a different definition of threading then. Then by

One of the fundamental problems with a web forum is that everyone is forced to
read the discussion the way the software author intended. Personally I think
SquirrelMail is a horrible email client, but I'm not trying to stop you from
using it if that's what you want to do.

I can't stop you from proceeding with this destructive course. I can and will
say that I will not use any proposed forum unless it is also accessible by
SMTP or NNTP. (No forum author offers this capability; pretty user icons are
clearly much more important than interoperability. Most of them are too busy
reinventing NNTP and making the same mistakes that were made twenty or thirty
years ago.)

R

> One of the fundamental problems with a web forum is that everyone is

I don't view that as a fundamental problem, unless the interface is horrid
which is something I strive hard to make sure I don't produce.

As for email clients, I've used worse.

> I can't stop you from proceeding with this destructive course. I can

Destructive? Bit harsh. This is ment as a constuctive endevour to bring MORE
people into the discussion. I'm acutally really surprised how hard core some
people are seeming with their email. It's the complete opposet I'm used to
seeing.

> On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 10:05:39AM -0700, Jaime Tiampo wrote:

> Destructive? Bit harsh. This is ment as a constuctive endevour to bring

The value of a community is roughly proportional to the square of the number
of people in it. Split the community in half, you've halved its total value.

So, why _aren't_ you supporting NNTP or SMTP access?

> I'm acutally really surprised how hard

Well, that's the point, isn't it? Email allows diversity. Web fora don't.

R

> The value of a community is roughly proportional to the square of the

Depending on the people in it. I've seen some very large communities that
aren't worth the bandwidth they use up.

> So, why _aren't_ you supporting NNTP or SMTP access?

Becuase the project isn't to the stage yet. Functionality is a longer process
to integrate and you have to have the interface framework sometimes done first
to do some of the other stuff. I went to get the framework done so that I
could actually spend the time on the funtionality of the backend without
wasing my time.

> I'm acutally really surprised how hard

I don't know what you're basing that on or your criteria, cause I view it the
opposet way. I find email so much more limiting then a forum, which is why I
flop between completely ignoring the list when not actively playing GZG games
and reading it all. It's just way to clunky for me.

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> On Jul 10, 2006, at 9:35 PM, Daniel Casquilho wrote:

> Funny how we all are so different. I fell the oposite. I find it a

Really it is how y'all work and how both your software and the forum/
mailist's software is set up. if you can still get posts and reply through
Email I'm a happy camper 'cuase I spent more than half of my time not
connected to the net.

So something like Yahoo's Group's works fine, just not yahoo cuase they can be
a royal pain.

My biggest problem with web forums is many are set up so you have to go read
them while connected to the site with little or no chance to respond the the
person making a initial post directly, just another voice in the babble that
follows.

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> On Jul 11, 2006, at 9:36 AM, Roger Burton West wrote:

> I can't stop you from proceeding with this destructive course. I

That is my general take on things.

> (No forum author offers this capability;

God, I feel old, this argument has been going on all over the net for almost a
decade now.

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> On Jul 11, 2006, at 10:33 AM, Jaime Tiampo wrote:

Snipping a bunch of flame bait:
> So, why _aren't_ you supporting NNTP or SMTP access?

This is ok, you are in the middle of a work in progress, as such there is no
reason to demand a switch in our operating procedures as group until you have
something ready for general release. As such remember that their is a strong
request that SMTP or NNTP be supported by any such forum in the long run.

> I'm acutally really surprised how hard

Jaime, it is the difference in the way people work. Just because you can't
someone else's process doesn't mean it's not valid nor reasonable to dismiss.

> My biggest problem with web forums is many are set up so you have to

I have the same issue with my email, I have to read it while connected so to
me it's no different.

With forums you do have the option to quote the text you are replying to as
well. The single thread is identical to email for me. Every message in
chronological order.

> This is ok, you are in the middle of a work in progress, as such

And I never asked for a switch. I just want design feed back on the project.

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> On Jul 11, 2006, at 11:25 AM, Jaime Tiampo wrote:

> This is ok, you are in the middle of a work in progress, as such

Cool, was just trying to dose a heated exchange, because both side have very
clear and reasonable points.
> Jaime, it is the difference in the way people work. Just because you

Depends..... How big a stick does he have? 8-)

Push comes to shove it will be a battle using every thing.....

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http://lists.csua.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lI have always been
amazed that the forum software will send you an e-mail
that a new post has arrived but the won't just send the post.

As a point of reference I am a member of the Ad Astra forum. They are lower
volume than the GZG list. I spent far more time reading and responding there
than I do here. I'll agree it's prettier but my time is more valuable than any
amount of pretty.

Roger

> On 7/11/06, Jaime Tiampo <fugugaipan@spikyfishthing.com> wrote:

Jaime,

I just looked at the forum, and I must say, it looks really nice. Is it
possible with your forum software to have a gallery, or to upload pictures?
This would add a lot to the value of the forum and would allow us to bury the
various yahoo groups, which would be a good thing IMHO.

Cheers,

> Cool, was just trying to dose a heated exchange, because both side

Course if the bulk of the people actually read my message the problem wouldn't
have happened. It amazing what kind of stink people raise on a minor "can you
give me interface feedback on X".

Of which it is apparent that the concensus is that the interface is good. So
beyong minor tweeking now it can progress.

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> On Jul 11, 2006, at 11:55 AM, Jaime Tiampo wrote:

> Cool, was just trying to dose a heated exchange, because both side

Cool, go to town.... it is often surprising how heat architecture discussions
get.

> I have always been amazed that the forum software will send you an

You can get them to do that, most admins won't bother though. 1) It's a forum,
so the expectation is to use the interface and post on the site 2) It eats up
bandwidth and processing to send the emails (I know it's not as much as
running the board but it can be a factor) 3) You have to do some work to get
them usually to do it, and most admins are lazy for things with very little
return on their time such as that.

I am a member of a forum that does send you the post as part of the email if
you tell it to when you watch the thread. I do find it handy for rarely posted
on threads that have specific info coming out.

If this project continues I will be looking into that option. I don't know
whether you'll be able to post via email or not though. The mod site is down
today due to technical issues so I can't look it up.

> As a point of reference I am a member of the Ad Astra forum. They are

I agree with that, but in my case it's because I just delete most of the GZG
traffic till a thread title that interests me comes up. On the other hand I
have a more pleasant experience using forums.

> On Tuesday 11 July 2006 17:36, Roger Burton West wrote:

Know of any good alternatives? Squirrel is good enough to allow me to read my
home email when I'm not at home, but I really would like something better.

The big advantage of email is, as you say, everyone can choose how to read it.
I don't have to put up with the quirks of yet another piece of forum software
just to read one single list. If you don't like threading, you can switch it
off. If you do, you can switch it on. Decent mail clients have filtering, kill
files, searching and archiving facilities you don't see on web forums. The old
excuse of wanting to be able to read a mailing list from work no longer cuts
it given the wide variety of webmail options out there.

Web forums are good when there's a lot of traffic which you want to dip into
occasionally for an answer to something (the Gentoo forums for example).
Otherwise I find a single forum can take as much time to catch up on as the
dozen or so mailing lists I'm on.

A web forum also requires yet another login and password.

> I can't stop you from proceeding with this destructive course. I can

This attitude seems to be common amongst the old school of people who remember
even what NNTP is (yeah, I still read Usenet). I've seen lists get a forum
alternative before, and generally the result is that the list dies (no idea
what happened to the forums, since I never read
them...).

> On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 09:13:14PM +0100, Samuel Penn wrote:

> Know of any good alternatives? Squirrel is good enough to allow me to

I run Prayer webmail on my own servers, but it's not ideal; I'm much more
likely to ssh into a Unix machine that can run mutt and procmail.

R

> Jaime,

Yes you can add a gallery amoung other things.

> Know of any good alternatives? Squirrel is good enough to allow me to

I would like something better too, but in the end squirrel does what I ask of
it, which is allow me to read and write email from anywhere. If something has
"threading" that would be nice to, but to me not very important since I move
everything out of my inbox once read and can search for what I'm looking for
with a function. If I want grouping threads I'll
use the forums I'm on ;-)

> This attitude seems to be common amongst the old school of people who

I gave up on Usenet when forums became user friendly ;-)

> On Tuesday 11 July 2006 22:10, Jaime Tiampo wrote:

And as soon as forums become user friendly, I'll do the same :-)