[GZG] Question for the painting gurus...

When making a home made wet palette does it matter if the sponge has
anti-microcrobial treatments?

Every sponge I looked at today had one form or another of treatment. "Not for
aquarium use." Not good for painting either?

Yeah, I'm trying to paint. Somehow, I used three different shades of grey
paint and got a blue spaceship. Pics soon.

Mike,

It shouldn't mater about the sponge, the trick with painting is consistency,
as long as you use the same supplies and are happy with the outcome, that's
what really maters. So in effect get your supplies together for the number of
things you want in that paint scheme............as long as you get the
troop/squadron/company to look like they go together that's
half the battle.

When painting gurus, I usually find that if I start with a base of... What?
Really? Oh, of course!

Actually, I don't paint, don't ask me. However, while I've tried bringing
distilled water down to the shop to see if the local mob of brush wielders
could tell the difference. I was never able to sneak a dip pail (cut off
plastic bottle) full on them, so I probably won't ever know. I'm lucky they
don't try their own gray water project. By the end of the day, some of brush
rinse is a bit thick for a wash...

I have noticed some new (artificial?) sponges seem to imbue an oily residue to
water; that might separate colors.

Also, can't pigments settle at different speeds if you lay the paint too
thick?

The_Beast

Mike Stanczyk wrote on 09/02/2008 09:07:43 PM:

> When making a home made wet palette does it matter if the sponge has

Alternate wet palette not involving sponge at all:

http://www.stargrunt.ca/gallery_modeling/wet_palette/wet_palette.htm

> On Wed, 3 Sep 2008, Tom B wrote:

> Alternate wet palette not involving sponge at all:

That's what I went with for my first painting attempt.

I base coated in black then a medium grey for the first coat.
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj62/mike_stanczyk/first%20paint/

I forgot the flash was on in the first picture.

I'm concerned that: 1) I'm losing detail. Too thick paint?

2) Time to paint. It took me 40 minutes to paint the GZG ship. My first
attempt to paint another ship not pictured, via drybrushing (the pictured
ships are not drybrushed.) was a disaster.

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> e Stanczyk wrote:

  My first
attempt to paint another ship not pictured, via drybrushing (the pictured
ships are not drybrushed.) was a disaster.

Drybrushing is not so good on large flat areas, but is great on edges and for
bringing out highlights on small details. A common mistake is to have
too much paint on the brush - the brush really does need to be wiped
until it is almost dry, so only a small amount of paint gets deposited on the
model with each stroke. It's a fast way to get decent looking ships, but it
does take a bit of practice. Be warned - it ruins brushes, so don't use
your best detail brush.

I have some KraVak ships that were painted solid black, drybrushed white, then
glazed with green ink. Very fast, even with adding on a few details
afterwards. Pictures here:
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/scotherns/FullThrust#

My UNSC ships are also lightly drybrushed as a final step after a couple of
layers of shading (as are the Phalon shells).

Hope this helps!

Steve

Mike,

Painting ships (like painting camouflage on 25mm infantry) can take some time,
depending on the detail level you wish to achieve and the effects you wish to
create.

Drybrushing:

1) The brush has to be almost absent of paint. It is a slow process of
depositing very small amounts of paint and brushing again and again until you
reach the level you want. 2) It is hard on brushes, I still like a good brush
to paint with however. <shrug> 3) For many drybrushing uses, I prefer the flat
brushes vs. the round ones (I'm talking about bristle layout). They make
drybrushing edges easier. And the bigger the model, the bigger the drybrush
you should
be using. For ships edges/raised features, in many instances I'd be
using a flat brush about 15-18mm across.

Unrelated Painting Tip:

4) If you ever get to ECC, a must have session is one with Rick Rutherford or
Stuart Murray on Painting (typically on the Saturday). That's where I learned
to drybrush and to use matte medium mixed in with paint to shade figures. I
can now paint a good D&D golem in
rapid-fast time thanks to some of their tips. And my last Water
Elemental was amazing.

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sure if this would help...but are you priming first? Â One method that I used
for 1:285 miniatures is something I got from the folks at GHQ at a convention
years ago. Â I would prime, generally using whatever the main color of the
vehicle would be (e.g., modern US would get a "forest green"). Â When I got a
bunch primed, I would put them on a piece of wood (2x4, for example), then put
them in a low oven (200 degrees F) for 20 minutes. Â The relatively low heat
plus time would cause the prime coat to "suck onto" the miniature, allowing a
lot of detail to stand forth. Â Then after allowing to cool, I would do the
subsequent camo coats (if they were to get it), weathering with the dry brush
technique, etc.

F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at
TexasBestGrok!

> --- On Thu, 9/4/08, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote:

From: Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: [GZG] Question for the painting gurus...
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 1:20 AM

> On Wed, 3 Sep 2008, Tom B wrote:

> Alternate wet palette not involving sponge at all:

That's what I went with for my first painting attempt.

I base coated in black then a medium grey for the first coat.
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj62/mike_stanczyk/first%20paint/

I forgot the flash was on in the first picture.

I'm concerned that: 1) I'm losing detail. Too thick paint?

2) Time to paint. It took me 40 minutes to paint the GZG ship. My first
attempt to paint another ship not pictured, via drybrushing (the pictured
ships are not drybrushed.) was a disaster.

Mike

> On Thu, 4 Sep 2008, Fred Kiesche wrote:

> Not sure if this would help...but are you priming first?
Yeah, black.

I'm at wits end here gang. How do I learn this when I'm ruining minis
hand over fist?   I only have a handfull resin ships, which I haven't
seen a way to strip them when I totally botch the paint job. The only other
ships I have are a set of new NSL from Jon. I'm not going near those again
until I get something that works. What do I practice on?

How I got into this mess: I went to the respected local game store and was
pointed to the local painting guru. He looked at what I wanted and what I had
and suggested drybrushing and said I should prime in black then 3 drybrush
layers: dark grey, medium grey, then light grey.

The dry brushing killed all the detail on the first mini. Hand painting isn't
much better.

I just want a simple easy paint job that won't get me laughed at.

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Gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
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Pine-Sol (or other pine cleaner) safe to use on resin minis? It's a
great stripper for metal figures. Soak overnight, clean up with a
retired toothbrush. :-)
Â
Detail loss on drybrushing sounds like too much/too thick paint on the
brush. Hard to tell sight unseen, of course, but that was my first thought. It
does take practice. I'm not always happy with the results I get from
drybrushing. Hang in there, and try not to get wrapped around the axle. You'll
get it. Â Best, Ken

> --- On Thu, 9/4/08, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote:

From: Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: [GZG] Question for the painting gurus...
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 2:20 PM

> On Thu, 4 Sep 2008, Fred Kiesche wrote:

> Not sure if this would help...but are you priming first?
Yeah, black.

I'm at wits end here gang. How do I learn this when I'm ruining minis
hand over fist?   I only have a handfull resin ships, which I haven't
seen a way to strip them when I totally botch the paint job. The only other
ships I have are a set of new NSL from Jon. I'm not going near those again
until I get something that works. What do I practice on?

(snip)

The dry brushing killed all the detail on the first mini.

> How I got into this mess:

I'm not the best painter in the world, but that's what I did, and I'm happy
with the results. Except I drybrushed two layers, with medium grey and very
light grey (very lightly applied). I think pick out bits hear and there.

I think it sounds like the drybrushing wasn't dry enough, or maybe was done
too heavily.

Only have hearsay:

Pine oil cleaners have a bad rep for resin. I've a friend that swears by brake
fluid, but I'm aware of no way to properly dispose of afterwards...

Every treatise on dry brush I've read makes the point that you wipe the brush
until you're sure there's nothing left on it, THEN dry brush. *shrug*

Oh, and only use a clean brush you were about to pitch anyway. Fanning a brush
over and over a rough surface does not lead to pinpoint usable brush points.

I don't paint, but I HAVE listened and tried...

Mike, can you tell I feel your pain?

The_Beast

Ken Hall wrote on 09/04/2008 01:44:54 PM:

> Is Pine-Sol (or other pine cleaner) safe to use on resin minis? It's

Asteroid bases and space stations.

Get some spare bits and pieces, and some chunks of styrofoam. Then prime them
(coating the styrofoam beforehand so the primer doesn't melt your asteroid).

An old transistor radio has plenty of capacitors, resistors, wires, etc etc.
Capacitors make great "habitat modules", and resistors "fuel tanks", for
example. A single big piece of plastic card can be cut and glued in layers to
make detailed blocky buildings, docking platforms, etc. Experiment a lot. You
WANT failures.

Once you have a few good ones, put them aside. Start with the parts that you
would have thrown away, and glue those together in interesting ways. Practice
your drybrushing, inking, etc on those. Then use the failures that were
genuine attempts but didn't work out. Then graduate to your kit bashed stuff.
Then you'll be ready for the real thing. Even then, do your pirates,
commercial ships and such first, then your military fleet when you're sure of
your paint scheme.

I painted most of my fleets by doing a black spray primer, then a base coat of
some theme color, then sometimes an ink coat of the same color, then two
layers of drybrushing, then painting the details a contrasting color or two,
and then (sometimes) drybrushing those, with a lighter version of the same
color. I don't seal with varnish, though I know I should. It's the detail work
(metallic probes and weapon turrets, red or yellow "operating lights", etc)
that really helps turn an ok paint job into something really cool, and it's
pretty easy too.

I haven't painted a new fleet in a while, admittedly, but if you do them in an
"assembly line" (ie do one step to your fleet before going back and doing the
next step) then you get a very consistent fleet. If you jot down your
methodology it helps so you do everything consistently.

I know it will cause some controversy, but the GW site has some good painting
instructions on their website, with pictures. The BFG
rulebook goes step-by-step through a few different styles of painting
ships.

The best lesson in drybrushing I've gotten was watching Ryan actually do it.
Seeing him do it once helped me avoid unpleasant mistakes. Even then, my first
time I left too much on the brush.

> On 9/4/08, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote:

Fred said:

"When I got a bunch primed, I would put them on a piece of wood (2x4, for
example), then put them in a low oven (200 degrees F) for 20 minutes. The
relatively low heat plus time would cause the prime coat to "suck onto" the
miniature, allowing a lot of detail to stand forth."

TomB:

Doesn't lead and/or white metal have the kind of low melting point you
can reach with a small electric hotplate? And any plastic or acrylic
stuff would be dodgy for this (possibly resin too - something tells me
it won't cook too well?).

BTW - I'm always looking for good modelling tips for stargrunt.ca. Can
I post this one? (With a disclaimer 'not to blame if your grav tank bursts
into flame or you inhale toxic fumes!')

Ken:

Is Pine-Sol (or other pine cleaner) safe to use on resin minis? It's a
great stripper for metal figures. Soak overnight,?clean up?with a
retired toothbrush. :-)

TomB:

Not sure about resins. If you want to remove paint from metal minis, my two
best suggestions, in increasing order of potence and decreasing order of
safety, are:

1) Automotive Brake Fluid

2) Acetone

Note that acetone is *rather dangerous*. I kept it in the garage in a sealed
sphaghetti jar. It ate the rubber seal right off. However, it also ate the
five minute (or full fledge) epoxy that had joined some
FSE legionaires to some undesirable washer-type bases. Nothing else
would even dent it. I left them soak for some days and you'd never have known
the washers and figures were attached. And is stripped off any spare paint
that was left too. Handle with the right type of gloves to protect yourself,
do not store the stuff in your residence (garage or similar), and do not touch
it. Wash off the minis with soap and water afterwards (I used a set of
longnose pliers to pick them out of the acetone). This is the 'nuclear
weapons' of paint and epoxy removal from white metal or other metal minis. Not
for the faint of heart. I DO NOT ADVISE YOU TO TOUCH THIS STUFF UNTIL YOU
EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT POTENTIAL RISKS. I found it effective as heck, but I
handle it very carefully.

Brake fluid won't do much to epoxy bonds, but it makes a really good detersive
paint stripper. Similarly soak the figures for a while and then at most you
need a very *light* toothbrushing to finish the job and a quick wash in soapy
water and rinse. You get the figure back like new. Better than Pine Sol if you
are trying to strip any sort of oil based paint or enamel. This is still not
stuff you leave out for the dog to drink and don't spill it on anything like
your car or it''ll lift the paint there too. But it is safer than acetone.

Other solutions I tried (pine sol, nail polish remover, etc) all worked
somewhat, but never as good as either of these and only acetone ate the epoxy
I wanted removed.

Learning to drybrush:

1) Go on ebay and find some kids toys or someone's crappy castaway minis. Buy
them cheapish and practice. Don't practice on your good ship minis.

2) If you buy some metal minis, you can paint them, screw it up, soak them in
break fluid, remove the paint, wash them up, retry. Not sure t his works so
well with other forms of material.

Hi Mike,

Several suggestions and comments.

First off, if you are seeing detail loss after drybrushing, you're using too
much paint. The brushes have to be, as others have said, nearly completely
dry. Test on a paper towel first. Avoid thinning your paint
with water (assuming you're using water-based acrylics) if you want to
dry brush - the brush retains the wetness for too long and the pigment
density decreases, making it really, really hard to get a decent effect.

Drybrushing is something that you can practice. Get something that isn't an
expensive miniature but has similar levels of little bumpy detail. I have
built and painted a lot of game terrain and use
drybrushing almost exclusively for that task.  If you have a rough-ish
surface, such as a bit of foam covered with sand, you can practice the
drybrushing technique over large areas without messing with minis. Take a look
here:

http://www.stargrunt.ca/gallery_modeling/sg2_gal_aj_vehicles/sg2_gal_aj_
veh5.htm

http://www.stargrunt.ca/gallery_modeling/sg2_gal_aj_vehicles/sg2_gal_aj_
veh12.htm

http://www.stargrunt.ca/gallery_modeling/sg2_gal_gurkhas/sg2_gal_gurkhas
_9.htm

These are several pics that include buildings and vehicles that I painted with
drybrushing. The technique can cover a lot of area *fast*, but it still
requires a subtle touch. The subtleness mostly comes in knowing how much paint
to have on the brush. At first, err on the side of not enough paint. Keep your
brush almost completely dry, so that when you pass over your model, you see
almost no change. You might need even 5 or 6 passes with the brush before you
see something happening. That's good. From there, you can try adding just a
bit more paint. Repeat. Eventually you'll get a feel for how "dry" the brush
has to be for you to get a good combination of coverage and speed.

If the guru at your local store can *show* you drybrushing, even better.

Another suggestion (once you are past the practicing on lumpy blocks and
dry glued sand stage - building game terrain is a great way to learn how
to do this, because people don't look at it as closely adn you get to do lots
of big areas... and it's a lot cheaper) is to see if you can find
other figures cheap.  Doesn't matter what they are - ships, vehicles,
infantry, monsters, whatever. Stores (or friends) sometimes are giving away
old junk on the cheap. Prime the old junk black and practice drybrushing. This
will give you experience doing it over smaller areas. Then go back to your
ships.

In my experience, dry brushing is one of those things that people either get
or don't get. You'll be practicing and suddenly it will work for you, and
you'll have one of those "ah ha!" moments. Then it will work fine and you'll
be much less frustrated.

Remember, the key point here is *DRY* brushing...

Good luck.

> Tom B wrote:
Our metal (lead-free) goes at about 260°C, anything with lead in will
be a bit lower but 200°F should be quite safe.

I know here (Canada) that you can take used brake fluid to be disposed of at
some garages. They operate a used liquid collection service, as does the local
transfer station...

> Doug Evans wrote:
*shrug*
> Oh, and only use a clean brush you were about to pitch anyway. Fanning

Replied to from digest, my apologies if this does not "thread" properly.

For drybrushing, I test the brush to see if it's ready for dry-brushing
by running it over the back of my hand. When the paint feels a tiny bit tacky
as it goes on my hand and doesn't flow into the tiny wrinkles and creases in
my skin it's ready.

The pictures linked to by Mike look like the brush was too moist. It's also
possible that the brush used might have bristles that are too soft
for dry-brushing.  Perhaps a combination of the two.

I hope that helps.

It's also nice to see that the write-up I did of the wet-pallete
technique is still being pointed to as a useful source of info.

Take care folks!

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it's resin, the baking is out. Â Have you tried priming with spray paint
rather than by brush? Â And dry brushing is with a scant (very scant amount of
paint) to "pick out" detailing. Â I'd suggest: Â A painting session at a
convention. Â
A book on painting miniatures even from some non-FT source (e.g.,
Warhammer, D&D, etc.) Â Some figures or even a couple of HO model railroad
houses or other scenary, etc., so you can practice on something other than a
FT miniature. A lot of what you lean for one will help in others. Â As for
stripping paint off of resin...what kind of paint is it? I've used cleaners
such as PineSol and oven cleaner on plastic
models--PineSol on water-based, oven cleaner on oil-based, but
experiment on something else first to see what the results are!

F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!

> --- On Thu, 9/4/08, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote:

From: Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: [GZG] Question for the painting gurus...
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 2:20 PM

> On Thu, 4 Sep 2008, Fred Kiesche wrote:

> Not sure if this would help...but are you priming first?
Yeah, black.

I'm at wits end here gang. How do I learn this when I'm ruining minis
hand over fist?   I only have a handfull resin ships, which I haven't
seen a way to strip them when I totally botch the paint job. The only other
ships I have are a set of new NSL from Jon. I'm not going near those again
until I get something that works. What do I practice on?

How I got into this mess: I went to the respected local game store and was
pointed to the local painting guru. He looked at what I wanted and what I had
and suggested drybrushing and said I should prime in black then 3 drybrush
layers: dark grey, medium grey, then light grey.

The dry brushing killed all the detail on the first mini. Hand painting isn't
much better.

I just want a simple easy paint job that won't get me laughed at.

Mike

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Gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lI
used the method with a couple of DIVISIONS (Command Decision scale) worth of
GHQ and similar 1:285 miniatures for WWII and Modern
Era--without a problem.
 A 200 degree oven isn't as "concentrated as a hot plate. Or as hot,
probably. Lots of air space around the miniatures, helping to bake on the
paint. Â Seriously, I used the method for tanks, jeeps, 1:285 humans,
helicopers, gliders, even metal scenic items such as bridges, docks, etc. Â
Never a problem.

F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!

> --- On Thu, 9/4/08, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com>
Subject: [GZG] Question for the painting gurus...
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 4:23 PM

Fred said:

"When I got a bunch primed, I would put them on a piece of wood (2x4, for
example), then put them in a low oven (200 degrees F) for 20 minutes. The
relatively low heat plus time would cause the prime coat to "suck onto" the
miniature, allowing a lot of detail to stand forth."

TomB:

Doesn't lead and/or white metal have the kind of low melting point you
can reach with a small electric hotplate? And any plastic or acrylic
stuff would be dodgy for this (possibly resin too - something tells me
it won't cook too well?).

BTW - I'm always looking for good modelling tips for stargrunt.ca. Can
I post this one? (With a disclaimer 'not to blame if your grav tank bursts
into flame or you inhale toxic fumes!')

> On Thu, 4 Sep 2008, Andy Skinner wrote:

Picture please?

> On Fri, 5 Sep 2008, Fred Kiesche wrote:

> Have you tried priming with spray paint rather than by brush?
sorry, the primer coat is a regular flat black spray paint by krylon

> I'd suggest:

That was the painting class I took.   Great class if you're entering
your work into the con painting contest.

> Some figures or even a couple of HO model railroad houses or other

I've got a pack of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Plasma-Dragons-Battle-Realm-Booster/dp/B000VWAKG6
At less than $5 they should be good for practice work. Haven't found anything
else local worth practicing on.

1. Flak Magnet: If I haven't duly attributed the source on my stargrunt.ca
page, please let me know. I like to give credit where credit is due.

2. Thanks for the info on white metal melting temps

3. I'll post the easy-bake method sometime soon on stargrunt.ca. I do
have a few questions: any impact on paint lifespan? any impact on paint
colour?
any info on how different paint types behave - oil based, water based,
enamels, any inks or clearcoats?

4. I'd love to help out Mike by making a 'how to drybrush video' or picture
series. If anyone wishes to do up some pics of a stage by stage, I can put
them into a nice article with attribution on stargrunt.ca. I'm just overloaded
at work (working through the weekend) or I'd break out a mini and try to
illustrate the technique.

5. Keep the painting and modeling tips coming.

6. GW does a book on making wargames terrain - it covers some painting
topics and is a great way to make either fancy terrain or simpler, cheaper
stuff. The 'green kitchen sponge' hedgerows are awesome and cheap, for one
example. They even look good with a bit of (dare I say it) drybrushing with a
lighter green to finish them off. Buy the book
- you won't be disappointed -> GWers build nice looking scenics and
the advice is very generic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIYkCz-Dco&feature=related
Excellent technique video for drybrushing\

> I'm not the best painter in the world, but that's what I did, and I'm

OK, here:

> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:

> 3. I'll post the easy-bake method sometime soon on stargrunt.ca. I do

I remember doing this many years ago, having read an article about it in
Wargamer's Digest (for those of you who remember that mag). It worked well
with Tamiya acrylics, for a fact. I haven't tried it with any other acrylics.
I do remember having a couple of miniatures that melted, even at the
temperature the other miniatures survived. I don't know why those miniatures
melted. It might be an idea to add a disclaimer suggesting that the painter
take a piece of flash or an "expendable" figure and test it in the oven first.

> 4. I'd love to help out Mike by making a 'how to drybrush video' or

By the by, at GenCon Indy this year and one of the big miniatures companies
ran a series of painting technique tutorials on a TV screen in their booth.

> 6. GW does a book on making wargames terrain - it covers some painting

I held off buying this book for a while, due to its price. In the end I broke
down. I'm glad I did. I second Tom; regardless of what you think of their
rules, GW has high standards for the look of their products. They've never
skimped on their terrain.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIYkCz-Dco&feature=related

Definitely!

Speaking earlier about GenCon, it was interesting to see the number of "big
name" miniatures games at GenCon. I saw very, very few companies selling
historicals, and there were few "generic" miniatures companies. However, a
couple of big names have been nibbling away at GW. Mutant Chronicles is back,
Confrontation looked interesting, as
did AT-43 and a couple of others.

I was too busy running RPGs to spend much time in the miniatures area. I did
traipse through the miniatures sections a few times. I talked for a while with
someone running a DS2 game. He was using Litko's flame and smoke markers,
which looked pretty good. He also mentioned a rumour that the company that
publishes Blitzkrieg Commander will soon have a science fiction game out.

_______________________________________________
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you are using spray paint and losing detail, then you are putting too much on.

You can always add...it's hard to subtract. It's kind of like the "measure
twice, cut once" advice in carpentry. Spray from a consistent distance, a
consistent pressure. Keep the can moving forward. Spray once, wait, spray a
second time after looking. "A little dab will do
it!"

As for things to practice on, any local hobby shops with model railroading
stuff? Seriously, a couple of HO or N scale houses with brickwork and the like
will give you a lot of surfaces to practice dry brushing on.

F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!

> --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote:
From: Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: [GZG] Question for the painting gurus...
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 4:40 PM

> On Fri, 5 Sep 2008, Fred Kiesche wrote:

> Have you tried priming with spray paint rather than by brush?
sorry, the primer coat is a regular flat black spray paint by krylon

> I'd suggest:

That was the painting class I took.   Great class if you're entering
your work into the con painting contest.

> Some figures or even a couple of HO model railroad houses or other

I've got a pack of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Plasma-Dragons-Battle-Realm-Booster/dp/B000VWAKG6
At less than $5 they should be good for practice work. Haven't found anything
else local worth practicing on.

Mike_______________________________________________

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take the "easy bake questions" (hah):

"any impact on paint lifespan?"

None that I've noticed. I started doing this in...ummm...1985??? 1986??? No
noticeable flaking, etc.

"any impact on paint colour?"

In general I've used armor vehicle colors, WWII and Modern. It might darken it
**a tad**, but hardly anything you can notice, especially if you are doing
other colors later, or drybrushing of weathering and the like.

"any info on how different paint types behave - oil based, water based,
enamels, any inks or clearcoats?"

I've used "model paint" (would that be enamel?), oil-based model paint
and water based model paint without any difficulty. No inks that I can recall.
No clearcoats, so can't help you there either.

I learned this method from GHQ at a convention years ago. They had a brochure
as well. Maybe this is something they post one their website now?

F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!

> --- On Sat, 9/6/08, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [GZG] Question for the painting gurus...
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008, 11:27 AM

1. Flak Magnet: If I haven't duly attributed the source on my stargrunt.ca
page, please let me know. I like to give credit where credit is due.

2. Thanks for the info on white metal melting temps

3. I'll post the easy-bake method sometime soon on stargrunt.ca. I do
have a few questions: any impact on paint lifespan? any impact on paint
colour?
any info on how different paint types behave - oil based, water based,
enamels, any inks or clearcoats?

4. I'd love to help out Mike by making a 'how to drybrush video' or picture
series. If anyone wishes to do up some pics of a stage by stage, I can put
them into a nice article with attribution on stargrunt.ca. I'm just overloaded
at work (working through the weekend) or I'd break out a mini and try to
illustrate the technique.

5. Keep the painting and modeling tips coming.

6. GW does a book on making wargames terrain - it covers some painting
topics and is a great way to make either fancy terrain or simpler, cheaper
stuff. The 'green kitchen sponge' hedgerows are awesome and cheap, for one
example. They even look good with a bit of (dare I say it) drybrushing with a
lighter green to finish them off. Buy the book
- you won't be disappointed -> GWers build nice looking scenics and
the advice is very generic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIYkCz-Dco&feature=related
Excellent technique video for drybrushing\

> On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Andy Skinner wrote:

> I'm not the best painter in the world, but that's what I did, and

Ok, *those* give me hope. If I can get to something close to that, I'll be
very happy.

> On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Tom B wrote:

> 4. I'd love to help out Mike by making a 'how to drybrush video' or

Well, I'll give you some pictures anyway.   The weather here in Colorado
has gone chilly early so I had to run out and primer coat some of the
practice minis in a hurry today.   I'll get pictures of the primer
coated minis before I start. I'll also get pictures of one of the other
unprimered minis.

Considering that I only have the following colors: White, black, light grey,
neutral grey, dark grey, What kind of color scheme will look not stupid on a
kinda ork and kinda night?

> 5. Keep the painting and modeling tips coming.

Please.

> 6. GW does a book on making wargames terrain - it covers some painting

Considering that I rescued several cubic feet of GeoHex terrain from Ebay
a couple of years ago I'm not in the market.  ;-)

Now if we could get some movement on FMA so I can convert disgruntled GW
players to GZG products...  >-)

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIYkCz-Dco&feature=related

I did check that out that video but not knowing the end doesn't help. Is
drybrushing a technique that anyone can do or is it only for the steady handed
painter? I just don't have great fine motor skills...

Having Andy's pictures to work towards makes me feel *SO* much better. I don't
feel like I've ruined the GZG ships. That resin ship... I don't know. I'm
going to put some black wash into the recesses and see how it looks then.

On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote:
> Considering that I rescued several cubic feet of GeoHex terrain from

There are some good tips in that book for buildings, ruins, etc. though.
*S*

> Is drybrushing a technique that anyone can do or is it only for the

It's a technique anyone can do. It doesn't require a lot of finesse. In fact,
when you have the right amount of paint on the brush it's something you can do
in a rush. You just brush and brush and brush in broad strokes and Xs..

That's the cool part about drybrushing. It's dead easy and perfect for those
of us with dexterity issues. However, there's one little trick: put so little
paint on the brush that you actually don't think anything will come of all
that brushing. Always remember that there's more on the brush than you think.

You know you're doing it right when you brush the miniature and it doesn't
look like there's any highlighting on it. Then you brush a couple more times
and you think, yeah, something seems to be happening. Then you brush a bit
more and you can start to see the detail coming up. That's when you know
you've got it.

(You can drybrush with more paint on your brush, but that's for later, when
you've had more practice.)

Another hint: the highlight colour can be lighter than you think it should be,
particularly for wargame figures (which are usually seen at a distance). I've
done drybrushing that looked good close up only to be next to impossible to
see at a distance.

> Allan Goodall wrote:

> I was too busy running RPGs to spend much time in the miniatures area.
More than a rumour - it's going to feature quite a few different ranges
of models, including both ourselves and GZG (although not, I suspect, GW

:-) )

> Allan Goodall wrote:

I'll throw some advice in.

For drybrushing, you'll get most of the paint off the brush on your palette,
but a piece of good paper towel is essential for making the transition from
"damp brushing" to drybrushing.

For the novice painter, a "wargaming grade" figure is only supposed to look
good at arms length. Don't worry about any flaws you can't see at that
distance.

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would recommend a damp cloth towel, I used one for kitchen use, don't know
what they are called, Wettex?

> On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Mike Stanczyk wrote:

> On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Tom B wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008, Mike Stanczyk wrote:

> http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj62/mike_stanczyk/second%20paint/

Ok, the white coat is on. Took 4 tries to get the black primer to not show
through. Pictures in the same place.

For the photographers on the list: I took pictures with a cloth blue
background and a flat back foamboard background. The camera had issues with
the black. Any ideas why? Same minis, same lighting, taken within minutes of
each other.

> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008, Mike Stanczyk wrote:
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj62/mike_stanczyk/second%20paint/
> The unprimered minis are different models from the same series.

The camera is probably sensing the large amount of black, and
overexposing to compensate - this will "burn out" any detail in the
white areas. For all our catalogue pics now, I use a mid-blue card
background which seems to keep the exposure just right.

> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Ground Zero Games wrote:

> The camera is probably sensing the large amount of black, and

Will a completely white background cause the reverse? (underexposure)

_______________________________________________
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Gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lMik
e, just curious: Are you priming the miniatures with black and then painting
them all over with white? Â If so, why not just prime them with white? Â When
I do my tank miniatures, I decide what the main color is going to
be if it is a multi-color camo job and prime it with the color. Then I
bake it (as described previously) and then do the second, third (fourth,
fifth) camo colors. Â The less paint you put on the mini, the better, so if
the primary color is white, prime it with white, and that gives you one less
layer obscuring the fine detail. Â Where are you located, BTW? Any chance you
are in New Jersey?

F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!

> --- On Wed, 9/17/08, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote:

From: Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: [GZG] Question for the painting gurus...
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008, 1:27 AM

> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008, Mike Stanczyk wrote:

> http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj62/mike_stanczyk/second%20paint/

Ok, the white coat is on. Took 4 tries to get the black primer to not show
through. Pictures in the same place.

For the photographers on the list: I took pictures with a cloth blue
background and a flat back foamboard background. The camera had issues with
the black. Any ideas why? Same minis, same lighting, taken within minutes of
each other.

Mike

Not an expert...!

However, I'll pitch in and say 'maybe'. It can happen, but tends to be a bit
less so in my experience. Of course, it may be I'm just more tolerant of
washed out over heavily shadowed...

By the way, many cameras 'weight' the image exposure to the center, of course,
but, if you've ever noticed a half stop on the trigger, that it hangs a little
as you press the trigger, you can set a target area by pointing, half
clicking, and holding, centered on the area closest to the exposure you want,
then frame the image as you wish before you push the trigger the rest of the
way.

Did that make ANY sense?

The_Beast

PS My birthday just passed, so it's almost time for TALK LIKE A PIRATE DAY!
Pass it on!

Mike Stanczyk wrote on 09/17/2008 12:23:47 PM:

> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Ground Zero Games wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Doug Evans wrote:

> By the way, many cameras 'weight' the image exposure to the center, of

Arr matey! Made perfect sense. Not totally useful since I'm taking the
picture with the camera's self timer.  ARRRRR-GGGhhh!

> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Fred Kiesche wrote:

> Mike, just curious: Are you priming the miniatures with black and then

> painting them all over with white? If so, why not just prime them

the total point is to develop just enough painting skill to paint my GZG minis
and not get laughed out of the room.

Now I was told black primer, gray drybrush then light grey drybrush would be
passible. I'm practicing drybrushing now. I figured that black, white and then
maybe gray would look ok on the cheap oger figures.

Now thankfully I found the cheap spaceships on ebay. They came in on Monday so
I'm going to go get some of those primed this week. Practice in drybrushing
will resume after that.

> Where are you located, BTW? Any chance you are in New Jersey?

Hey Jon?

What's your path for someone to design/master mini's for you?

Indy's done it, so have others. There's someone on Dean's Starship Combat
Forum who's kitbashed NAC ship I'd like nominate:

Mad Boffin:
http://star-ranger.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2370

Unless of course, this is one of your secret identities.

> On Sep 17, 2008, at 7:26 PM, Mike Stanczyk wrote:

> Now I was told black primer, gray drybrush then light grey drybrush

That's pretty much it. True drybrushing transfers very, very little paint on
each stroke. You're just scraping dried paint off the brush and onto the
raised parts of the model. The last layers, and you almost always build up
from dark to light layers, just go on reeeeeeal easy.

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1951

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> On Sep 17, 2008, at 10:58 AM, Fred Kiesche wrote:

> Mike, just curious: Are you priming the miniatures with black and

Oooh. You do white over black primer by building up from gray. I do a layer of
dark and then one of battleship. The white goes on very well over battleship
gray. The dark layer can be skipped, depending on the exact effect desired.

My style has evolved away from washes and to more of a "drybrush everything"
approach. The black outlining and gray shading helps a great deal. I usually
just have to touch up a little black outlining once I'm done with the final
layer of white drybrush (the early stages are more of a damp brush).

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1951

> Hey Jon?

Heh! It's not, but that IS a very nice piece of work!

I agree that the old FT111B was always an odd piece of design (for the record,
it was one of the old CMD originals, not one of my own).

As to making masters, either as modifications of our existing minis or
completely new sculpts, we're always happy to look at what folks have done or
propose to do; if it's something that's good enough to put in the range, we
can talk about it. It's usually a good idea for prospective designers to have
a quick word with me by email first,
just to sort out what is and isn't practical to cast - the most
important rule being that everything, whether in plastic, metal or
putty, must be 100% SOLID all through - no hollow bits or air voids
inside it, or it WILL crush in the mould!

Have folks found reasons to try the reverse of this? I've been trying to get a
paint guru to experiment with black drybrushed over dayglo colors, say, red or
blue, for volcanic rock or 'hot' engine heat sinks. One of my trash ships has
ribbing down the center of the pieces I've taken from
plastic cutlery handles. It looks smashing in my imagination. ;->=?

The_Beast

P.S. Wait. 1951? DAD!

Michael Llaneza wrote on 09/18/2008 12:08:54 AM:

***snippage***

> That's pretty much it. True drybrushing transfers very, very little

This technique will probably work quite well. Bruce Hirst has a little
tutorial here:

http://www.hirstarts.com/painting/painting2.html#Lava

His site, in addition to selling first-rate plaster molds for scenery,
is filled with fantastic tips, tutorials and instructions. I've got some of
his fantasy molds and they're great.

Rob

> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu> wrote:

One of the most interesting parts of painting for me is the difference in look
between a dry brushed and washed figure.

For instance, two recipes for chainmail:

1) Paint with a colour like flat steel or aluminum (silver if you must) and
run some black miracle wash over it, which blackens in the spaces between
rings. Looks good. 2) Paint with a matte black, then drybrush on the
silver/alumnimum/flat steel. Also looks good.

You can usually tell by looking at a figure which school of thought
the painter subscribes to - paint up, then wash to dull down and throw
shadow into the nooks and cranies, or paint dark and drybrush up the
highlighted regions.

It's not a religion either as you see people freely mix drybrushing and
washing in the same figure (and washing with inks nonetheless).

Not much to recommend one strategy over the other IMO, except perhaps that
drybrushing destroys brushes and washes not so much.

Either drybrushing badly or washing badly (both common the first many times
you try unless you're lucky or have expert insruction) can destroy a figure
and make the effort you spent painting the figure otherwise seem wasted. I
really do understand why some people avoid both because they just don't want
to ruin an otherwise decent paint job.

But the reality is both are separate skills and hard to master, but mastering
them gives you a range of painting options when approaching a figure that
allow lots of variations in a look and like a good artisan, you can pick the
right tool for the job.

And BTW, the BTEF reference with the transposed dates really does require some
explanation, Mike L.:0)

TomB

> On Sep 18, 2008, at 11:02 PM, Tom B wrote:

> And BTW, the BTEF reference with the transposed dates really does

it's the Bermuda Triangle, you maybe want linear time?