With immediate effect, we have DELETED the SG15-X04 pack of Free
Trader Crew and Passengers (9 figures), and replaced it with TWO separate
packs of 6 figures each at our regular 15mm pack price of £2.50 per pack. The
reason for the change is that we've just had three more figures sculpted to
add to the set!
The new figures are variants of three of the main characters from the
crew - the Captain and the First Mate now in different poses and long
"duster" coats (I suppose you could paint them brown if you
liked....), and the Security Specialist/Mercenary in a hooded jacket
with a different gun from the original sculpt. This is the figure mix that we
had planned to do all along, but in order to get them launched at Salute last
month we didn't have time to get these extra variants ready, so we launched
with the original large pack of 9
figures - but now they are done we can re-arrange things as they were
intended to be. So, we now have TWO packs:
1) SG15-X04A Free Trader Crew pack A - six figures: Captain, First
Mate and Security Specialist, 2 different poses of each character. £2.50
2) SG15-X04B Free Trader Crew and Passengers pack B - six character
figures, all different: Pilot, Engineer, Ambassador, Preacher, Doctor and
Teenage Girl. £2.50
Now, some of you will be thinking "Waaaah, I've already bought the
original 9-figure pack, but I want the three new figures to complete
the set!!" So, for a limited time only, we are offering a special FREE offer
to all those of you who already have the original X04 pack: if you place ANY
new order with us over the next couple of months, and tell us that you've
bought the X04 pack already, then we'll send you the
three new figures completely FREE with your new order - so you
actually get all 12 figures for just the original £3.50 you paid, instead of
paying £5.00 for the two new packs. We do try to be good
to you! ;-)
Best,
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:
Any chance these figures will be sculpted in 25mm???
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Gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
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me be the first to add my VAST desire to see these figures done in 25mm!
The Gloworm Crew definitely needs a 25mm appearance!
Tom B
PS - Yes, I will buy. I will pre-buy if that helps.
PPS - Waiting for an announcement of a couple of new fighter/small
craft...
:-) (Yes, I'm cheeky - it is a problem with us from the Colonies)
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:09 PM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
Given that 25mm is the de facto standard for roleplaying, and that there's a
Serenity RPG (not to mention unofficial variants for Savage Worlds, Eden's
Unisystem, Traveller, and a bunch of others), it just screams 25mm.
Besides, for adversaries you have your pick of Dixon or Old Glory Wild West
figures, and I'm sure I could find a Stargrunt faction that would make dandy
Alliance troops as seen at the end of Serenity.
If I could make a suggestion for further adversaries, we need a black guy in a
suit with a katana, a black guy in a skin tight space suit (we'll call him,
oh... "Jeb Stuart"), and two ominous guys in suits whose hands we can paint
blue.
Oh! Then you need "space Pillagers" that look like a sci-fi punk band
gone bad.
I would be _all_ over these... but in 25mm.
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Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 19:19, Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com> wrote:
> Given that 25mm is the de facto standard for roleplaying, and that
Er, Not for Traveller, the 15mm release of figures for Traveller far out
number the 25mm or 28mm releases.
And being that Traveller is the defacto Standard of SF-Roleplay You
statement is a reach.....
Now is that pedantic enough for you? I could trot out that 6mm is the one true
scale for roleplaying argument that I used for my Travel size
set....
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net> wrote:
> Er, Not for Traveller, the 15mm release of figures for Traveller far
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. (I only have, oh, about 200 or so 15mm Traveller
figures...)
> And being that Traveller is the defacto Standard of SF-Roleplay You
Oh, I think that's debatable. I'd be willing to bet that the various flavours
of Star Wars (D6, D20, Saga Edition, not to mention the
semi-official variants in games like All Tomorrow's Zombies for All
Flesh Must Be Eaten, or the unofficial variants for True 20, Savage
Worlds, and the like) have out-sold Traveller over the years. Yes,
Traveller has been around a lot longer (hmm... what, maybe 10 years longer?
I'd have to do some digging to find out), but Star Wars is currently found in
large chain book stores that don't carry Mongoose and wouldn't know a Marc
Miller if it bit them on their order sheets.
And It wouldn't surprise me if the Star Wars figures -- mostly the
collectible ones, with the close tie in to Star Wars D20 and,
especially, Star Wars Saga Edition -- have out sold Traveller's
unpainted metal figures, and that's not including the bare metal Star Wars
figures from West End Games' run. The Star Wars figures are around 25mm.
While Traveller shows up every now and again on RPG.net, the most
prolific sci-fi topic is "Star Wars: D20 or D6" (trick question; the
real answer is "Star ORE" *grin*) and the D20 forums are pretty busy with Star
Wars questions. That doesn't mean much other than to say that a general RPG
board has more love of Star Wars than Traveller (something that I personally
feel is pretty sad).
Regardless, the vast majority of roleplayers game in 25mm. Traveller is the
primary exception, but taking all RPGs out there in all genres, 25mm and above
is the preferred scale, mostly due to visual appeal.
You could also argue that with what's available RIGHT NOW as easy to purchase
figures, Star Wars and WH40K make up the vast majority of available science
fiction roleplaying miniatures, and they are all 25mm or above. (Yes, I'm not
fighting fair. 40K has only had an RPG out for about, what, two years, so very
few of the 40K figures out there are for RPG use.)
(While I always liked WFRP -- more in spite of its roots than because
of it -- I'm not sure how I feel about Dark Heresy and the other 40K
RPGs. I just don't care much for the background universe. I do have the PDF of
3:16, though. A lot of 3:16 players use 40K miniatures, but you could use any
you have from any manufacturer. If you ever wanted to roleplay genocidal bug
hunt adventures, you owe it to yourself to pick up 3:16. Now THAT is an RPG
that should appear at an ECC sometime! if I ever managed to get to an ECC, I'd
run a game of that. While any miniatures would work, it just cries out for
power armour. Jon has a bunch of figures that would work just dandy for it.
You can paint up bugs for it, too, but I've heard that the best option is to
use green glass beads, as they look more like "blips" on a scanner.)
As much as I prefer 15mm for almost all of my gaming, I still want 25mm for
RPGs. Besides, there are way more Wild West figure lines in 25mm than in 15mm,
which you need to do the browncoated freighter crew type games justice.
(Jon, if you do these in 25mm, any chance you can sculpt the security guy with
a woollen cap instead of a hoodie? *grin*
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Gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
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e I did say I was being pendantic..... So please approach with the humor that
is intended.....
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 21:49, Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net>
Damn-it Allen I said Science Fiction, not fantasy..... Star Wars doesn't
count as SF.....
> And It wouldn't surprise me if the Star Wars figures -- mostly the
I prefer the Westend figures as they where closer to 25mm and thus a
reasonable scale. The plasics from hasbro don't really match any other
lines....
Regardless, the vast majority of roleplayers game in 25mm.
Yes, and the vast majority are playing Fantasy also, which 25/28mm is a
reasonable size...
> Traveller
Yes, as it should be...
> Star Wars and WH40K make up the vast majority of
No, you are speaking the truth. But both games are truly Science fantasy at
best.
As much as I prefer 15mm for almost all of my gaming, I still want
> 25mm for RPGs.
See this is where we differ, I want 15mm for use with my RPGs, it is much
easier taking figures to games that way.
> Besides, there are way more Wild West figure lines in
Tell that to my collection of 15mm Wild West figures, I have a large
collection 400+ figures.... I went on a buying frenzy after Firefly.
> [quoted text omitted]
> On Friday 24 April 2009 07:40:27 Evyn MacDude wrote:
wrote:
> > Oh, I think that's debatable. I'd be willing to bet that the various
Ha! Some of us would discount Traveller as Science Fiction :-)
(Psi being the worst of its offences, but not the only)
Back on topic, I've use 25mm figures for Traveller RPGing. In fact, I don't
think *I've seen* 15mm Traveller figures anywhere.
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> Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 00:08, Samuel Penn <sam@glendale.org.uk> wrote:
> On Friday 24 April 2009 07:40:27 Evyn MacDude wrote:
> (Psi being the worst of its offences, but not the only)
We can pick it apart, yes we can. It still is a good fit for the SF of the
Golden age.... And Psi was a major issue of that period.
Back on topic, I've use 25mm figures for Traveller RPGing.
For a long time Jon was the one of the few producers of 25mm SF figures.
Funny side note if you use GWs space Marines with 25mm figures they are in
scale with their fluff.
> In fact,
It really depends how long you have been playing Traveller.... There really
haven't been any produced in 20 years.
Thus my rabid devotion for new character figures in 15mm
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 00:08, Samuel Penn
... And there lies one of the biggest problems with even thinking of doing
more "larger scale" (and here I mean larger than 15mm) figures
at the moment - what size would we make them? When we started the
25mm ranges many years ago, we went for pretty close to "true 25" while being
compatible with the better SF ranges already out there at
the time - specifically Denizen, Ral Partha (Battletroops) and the
first WEG Star Wars figs, all of which were close to 25mm and realistically
proportioned, so that's the way we asked our sculptors
to go. Then, of course, GW started to go 28mm+ and a caricatured
house style, and most others followed, leaving the true 25s as a virtually
orphaned scale.
So, if we were to do the Trader Crew (or any other figures for that matter),
should we do them in true 25mm to match our SG range, or go
to "slim 28", or even up to the 30-32mm that some sculptors seem to
be doing these days.....?
A lively discussion of this point would be very interesting,
especially if it brings out some sort of consensus in the end!! ;-)
Jon (GZG)
> In fact,
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:37:31 +0100, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com>
wrote:
> So, if we were to do the Trader Crew (or any other figures for that
My SF collection is almost entirely GZG. Anything I buy pretty much
has to fit true 25mm because of that. So Traveller figs in the 28-32mm
range probably wouldn't get bought by me... :-( There's some very
nice SF/Modern figs out there in 28mm which I've passed on buying
because of this.
The exception would be aliens or power armour etc which don't look 'wrong' if
the scale is slightly out.
The stupid scale creep is a PITA for everyone.
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net> wrote:
> Note I did say I was being pendantic..... So please approach with the
Don't worry, I did; I was smiling the whole time I wrote that.
> Oh, I think that's debatable. I'd be willing to bet that the various
Caught in my carefully laid trap!
Let's look at why Star Wars is fantasy and Traveller is science fiction.
Star Wars is in a fantasy galaxy far, far away. Traveller is in our galaxy.
Or, well, it's our galaxy because Sol is in it. But it's two dimensional. It's
flat. It's like they (sort of) took our galaxy and sliced it thin onto a
microscope slide. At least it's theoretically possible that the Star Wars
galaxy could exist in that physical configuration somewhere.
Star Wars has FTL. So, too, does Traveller. According to latest research,
faster than light travel is impossible. The most realistic
contender was a space-time warp, but recently that was dismissed.
(Can't find the article I read that pointed out that Hawking radiation would
make crispy critters out of anything in the warp, but here's another article I
found:
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/23292/).
Star Wars has the whole "why is Hoth within a few hour sublight trip to
Bespin?" problem from Empire Strikes Back. Of course, Traveller has the whole
"flat galaxy" problem, so best not to delve too deeply into either.
Star Wars has impossible weapons, like lightsabers. Traveller has impossible
weapons, like plasma guns
(http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html#plasma).
Star Wars has fantasy-based telekinetic and telepathic powers, via The
Force (which Lucas retroactively tried to turn away from a religion into
science fiction through the awful mitochlorians). Traveller has
fantasy-based telekinetic and telepathic powers through psionics.
Yea, Star Wars is WAY more fantasy than Traveller. :-)
(I once had the Citizens of the Imperium book that had stats for young dirt
farmer turned pilot, and despotic, cybernetic Imperial warlord.
Marc Miller saw there was no relation, too. Double- :-) )
> I prefer the Westend figures as they where closer to 25mm and thus a
But they are bigger than 15mm, which is the important part.
> No, you are speaking the truth. But both games are truly Science
See my carefully laid trap, above. :-)
(If I felt perverse enough, I'd make the argument that Star Wars is
sci-fi and 40K isn't.)
> See this is where we differ, I want 15mm for use with my RPGs, it is
And I want 25mm for my RPGs, because we don't roleplay right at a
table. We game around a coffee table (actually, two end-to-end map
tables) in the middle of our living room. I might just as well use my
15mm Phalons as buy the 15mm not-Firefly crew for roleplaying, for all
the visual differentiation I get when looking from the couch to the table.
> Tell that to my collection of 15mm Wild West figures, I have a large
Ha! Looks like I fell into your carefully laid trap!
If I felt like it, I'd do some research into the number of companies
that provide 15mm Wild West versus 25+mm Wild West. But I won't... :-)
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 3:37 AM, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:
You go with the True 25mm scale of the SG line to maintain product
differentiation!
Besides, I'm pretty sure we could find SGs figures that would make
dandy stand-ins for not-Alliance troops.
I'd have to look at my Dixon Wild West to see if they match the rest of the
GZG range in size, or even if they are a close approximation.
> A lively discussion of this point would be very interesting,
That's unlikely. :-)
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 3:37 AM, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:
figures
> at the moment - what size would we make them?
After Death and Taxes, there is a third certain thing in this reality:
WHATEVER we do, SOMEONE will p*ss and moan about it. And
these day, they'll do it all over the internet...... ;-)
Jon (GZG)
> --
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Gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
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always thought the de facto standard of SF-RPG was Universe from SPI.
 Or maybe...Metamorphosis Alpha!
F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!
> --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com> wrote:
From: Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com>
Subject: Re: [GZG] [OFFICIAL] Change to 15mm Free Trader Crew.....
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 12:49 AM
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net> wrote:
> Er, Not for Traveller, the 15mm release of figures for Traveller far
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. (I only have, oh, about 200 or so 15mm Traveller
figures...)
> And being that Traveller is the defacto Standard of SF-Roleplay You
Oh, I think that's debatable. I'd be willing to bet that the various flavours
of Star Wars (D6, D20, Saga Edition, not to mention the
semi-official variants in games like All Tomorrow's Zombies for All
Flesh Must Be Eaten, or the unofficial variants for True 20, Savage
Worlds, and the like) have out-sold Traveller over the years. Yes,
Traveller has been around a lot longer (hmm... what, maybe 10 years longer?
I'd have to do some digging to find out), but Star Wars is currently found in
large chain book stores that don't carry Mongoose and wouldn't know a Marc
Miller if it bit them on their order sheets.
And It wouldn't surprise me if the Star Wars figures -- mostly the
collectible ones, with the close tie in to Star Wars D20 and,
especially, Star Wars Saga Edition -- have out sold Traveller's
unpainted metal figures, and that's not including the bare metal Star Wars
figures from West End Games' run. The Star Wars figures are around 25mm.
While Traveller shows up every now and again on RPG.net, the most
prolific sci-fi topic is "Star Wars: D20 or D6" (trick question; the
real answer is "Star ORE" *grin*) and the D20 forums are pretty busy with Star
Wars questions. That doesn't mean much other than to say that a general RPG
board has more love of Star Wars than Traveller (something that I personally
feel is pretty sad).
Regardless, the vast majority of roleplayers game in 25mm. Traveller is the
primary exception, but taking all RPGs out there in all genres, 25mm and above
is the preferred scale, mostly due to visual appeal.
You could also argue that with what's available RIGHT NOW as easy to purchase
figures, Star Wars and WH40K make up the vast majority of available science
fiction roleplaying miniatures, and they are all 25mm or above. (Yes, I'm not
fighting fair. 40K has only had an RPG out for about, what, two years, so very
few of the 40K figures out there are for RPG use.)
(While I always liked WFRP -- more in spite of its roots than because
of it -- I'm not sure how I feel about Dark Heresy and the other 40K
RPGs. I just don't care much for the background universe. I do have the PDF of
3:16, though. A lot of 3:16 players use 40K miniatures, but you could use any
you have from any manufacturer. If you ever wanted to roleplay genocidal bug
hunt adventures, you owe it to yourself to pick up 3:16. Now THAT is an RPG
that should appear at an ECC sometime! if I ever managed to get to an ECC, I'd
run a game of that. While any miniatures would work, it just cries out for
power armour. Jon has a bunch of figures that would work just dandy for it.
You can paint up bugs for it, too, but I've heard that the best option is to
use green glass beads, as they look more like "blips" on a scanner.)
As much as I prefer 15mm for almost all of my gaming, I still want 25mm for
RPGs. Besides, there are way more Wild West figure lines in 25mm than in 15mm,
which you need to do the browncoated freighter crew type games justice.
(Jon, if you do these in 25mm, any chance you can sculpt the security guy with
a woollen cap instead of a hoodie? *grin*
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lHEY
! I still have a copy of MA!
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn
From: Fred Kiesche
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 10:27 AM
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [GZG] [OFFICIAL] Change to 15mm Free Trader Crew.....
I always thought the de facto standard of SF-RPG was Universe from
SPI.
Or maybe...Metamorphosis Alpha!
F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!
> --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com> wrote:
From: Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com>
Subject: Re: [GZG] [OFFICIAL] Change to 15mm Free Trader
Crew.....
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 12:49 AM
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net> wrote:
> Er, Not for Traveller, the 15mm release of figures for Traveller far
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. (I only have, oh, about 200 or so 15mm Traveller
figures...)
> And being that Traveller is the defacto Standard of SF-Roleplay You
Oh, I think that's debatable. I'd be willing to bet that the various flavours
of Star Wars (D6, D20, Saga Edition, not to mention the
semi-official variants in games like All Tomorrow's Zombies for All
Flesh Must Be Eaten, or the unofficial variants for True 20, Savage
Worlds, and the like) have out-sold Traveller over the years. Yes,
Traveller has been around a lot longer (hmm... what, maybe 10 years longer?
I'd have to do some digging to find out), but Star Wars is currently found in
large chain book stores that don't carry Mongoose and wouldn't know a Marc
Miller if it bit them on their order sheets.
And It wouldn't surprise me if the Star Wars figures -- mostly the
collectible ones, with the close tie in to Star Wars D20 and,
especially, Star Wars Saga Edition -- have out sold Traveller's
unpainted metal figures, and that's not including the bare metal Star Wars
figures from West End Games' run. The Star Wars figures are around 25mm.
While Traveller shows up every now and again on RPG.net, the most
prolific sci-fi topic is "Star Wars: D20 or D6" (trick question; the
real answer is "Star ORE" *grin*) and the D20 forums are pretty busy with Star
Wars questions. That doesn't mean much other than to say that a general RPG
board has more love of Star Wars than Traveller (something that I personally
feel is pretty sad).
Regardless, the vast majority of roleplayers game in 25mm. Traveller is the
primary exception, but taking all RPGs out there in all genres, 25mm and above
is the preferred scale, mostly due to visual appeal.
You could also argue that with what's available RIGHT NOW as easy to purchase
figures, Star Wars and WH40K make up the vast majority of available science
fiction roleplaying miniatures, and they are all 25mm or above. (Yes, I'm not
fighting fair. 40K has only had an RPG out for about, what, two years, so very
few of the 40K figures out there are for RPG use.)
(While I always liked WFRP -- more in spite of its roots than because
of it -- I'm not sure how I feel about Dark Heresy and the other 40K
RPGs. I just don't care much for the background universe. I do have the PDF of
3:16, though. A lot of 3:16 players use 40K miniatures, but you could use any
you have from any manufacturer. If you ever wanted to roleplay genocidal bug
hunt adventures, you owe it to yourself to pick up 3:16. Now THAT is an RPG
that should appear at an ECC sometime! if I ever managed to get to an ECC, I'd
run a game of that. While any miniatures would work, it just cries out for
power armour. Jon has a bunch of figures that would work just dandy for it.
You can paint up bugs for it, too, but I've heard that the best option is to
use green glass beads, as they look more like "blips" on a scanner.)
As much as I prefer 15mm for almost all of my gaming, I still want 25mm for
RPGs. Besides, there are way more Wild West figure lines in 25mm than in 15mm,
which you need to do the browncoated freighter crew type games justice.
(Jon, if you do these in 25mm, any chance you can sculpt the security guy with
a woollen cap instead of a hoodie? *grin*
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lWha
t is pathetic is so do I...
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 09:43, Michael <mwsaber6@msn.com> wrote:
> HEY! I still have a copy of MA!
--
Evyn
_______________________________________________
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Gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOut
of curiosity: Was it the first SF-RPG you bought/played?
 I've still got most of my Traveller stuff, even though I haven't used it in
years. I still have Empire of the Petal Throne, kept it even when the
collection of other games was drastically cut back. Â Now that my daughter is
10, I'm wondering if I should get her hooked on something...hmmmm...wonder if
I can find "Tunnels & Trolls"!
F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!
> --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Michael <mwsaber6@msn.com> wrote:
From: Michael <mwsaber6@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [GZG] [OFFICIAL] Change to 15mm Free Trader Crew.....
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 12:43 PM
HEY! I still have a copy of MA! Â Â Â Â Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn
From: Fred Kiesche
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 10:27 AM
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [GZG] [OFFICIAL] Change to 15mm Free Trader Crew.....
I always thought the de facto standard of SF-RPG was Universe from SPI.
 Or maybe...Metamorphosis Alpha!
F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!
> --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com> wrote:
From: Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com>
Subject: Re: [GZG] [OFFICIAL] Change to 15mm Free Trader Crew.....
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 12:49 AM
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net> wrote:
> Er, Not for Traveller, the 15mm release of figures for Traveller far
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. (I only have, oh, about 200 or so 15mm Traveller
figures...)
> And being that Traveller is the defacto Standard of SF-Roleplay You
Oh, I think that's debatable. I'd be willing to bet that the various flavours
of Star Wars (D6, D20, Saga Edition, not to mention the
semi-official variants in games like All Tomorrow's Zombies for All
Flesh Must Be Eaten, or the unofficial variants for True 20, Savage
Worlds, and the like) have out-sold Traveller over the years. Yes,
Traveller has been around a lot longer (hmm... what, maybe 10 years longer?
I'd have to do some digging to find out), but Star Wars is currently found in
large chain book stores that don't carry Mongoose and wouldn't know a Marc
Miller if it bit them on their order sheets.
And It wouldn't surprise me if the Star Wars figures -- mostly the
collectible ones, with the close tie in to Star Wars D20 and,
especially, Star Wars Saga Edition -- have out sold Traveller's
unpainted metal figures, and that's not including the bare metal Star Wars
figures from West End Games' run. The Star Wars figures are around 25mm.
While Traveller shows up every now and again on RPG.net, the most
prolific sci-fi topic is "Star Wars: D20 or D6" (trick question; the
real answer is "Star ORE" *grin*) and the D20 forums are pretty busy with Star
Wars questions. That doesn't mean much other than to say that a general RPG
board has more love of Star Wars than Traveller (something that I personally
feel is pretty sad).
Regardless, the vast majority of roleplayers game in 25mm. Traveller is the
primary exception, but taking all RPGs out there in all genres, 25mm and above
is the preferred scale, mostly due to visual appeal.
You could also argue that with what's available RIGHT NOW as easy to purchase
figures, Star Wars and WH40K make up the vast majority of available science
fiction roleplaying miniatures, and they are all 25mm or above. (Yes, I'm not
fighting fair. 40K has only had an RPG out for about, what, two years, so very
few of the 40K figures out there are for RPG use.)
(While I always liked WFRP -- more in spite of its roots than because
of it -- I'm not sure how I feel about Dark Heresy and the other 40K
RPGs. I just don't care much for the background universe. I do have the PDF of
3:16, though. A lot of 3:16 players use 40K miniatures, but you could use any
you have from any manufacturer. If you ever wanted to roleplay genocidal bug
hunt adventures, you owe it to yourself to pick up 3:16. Now THAT is an RPG
that should appear at an ECC sometime! if I ever managed to get to an ECC, I'd
run a game of that. While any miniatures would work, it just cries out for
power armour. Jon has a bunch of figures that would work just dandy for it.
You can paint up bugs for it, too, but I've heard that the best option is to
use green glass beads, as they look more like "blips" on a scanner.)
As much as I prefer 15mm for almost all of my gaming, I still want 25mm for
RPGs. Besides, there are way more Wild West figure lines in 25mm than in 15mm,
which you need to do the browncoated freighter crew type games justice.
(Jon, if you do these in 25mm, any chance you can sculpt the security guy with
a woollen cap instead of a hoodie? *grin*
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Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Fred Kiesche
<recursive_loop@yahoo.com>wrote:
> Out of curiosity: Was it the first SF-RPG you bought/played?
Space Opera. I know it'd be considered heresy with most of those on the list
here, but I never did get into Traveller RPGing.
Mk
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Fred Kiesche
> <recursive_loop@yahoo.com> wrote:
Mine was the original Gamma World. I still have fond memories of some
of the pictures. This was pre-Road Warrior, so post-apocalyptic
visions had plants growing over long abandoned concrete highways. I always
preferred that image to the nuclear dust bowl look of Darwin's
World or some of the other post-Road Warrior games.
The next was Traveller. I sold off my collection a few years ago, largely
because I had no one to play with. I still think about picking up a later
version from time to time, but I have Serenity, and Battlestar Galactica, and
a couple of other RPGs that scratch the space opera itch, if I can ever get
our group to play.
(Alana wants to play Serenity, so I might run a 1-on-1 with her.)
I do have the original Striker, though I can't remember the last time I looked
at it.
> Now that my daughter is 10, I'm wondering if I should get her hooked
Logan (my 10 year old) wanted to play Star Wars, so I picked up Star Wars Saga
Edition (he wanted to be a Jedi and I kept hearing that the old D6 version was
better, but sort of nerfed Jedis). It was okay, but I found the D20 system
clunky, particularly since I've gone more narrativist in my games over the
years and I'm just not up to spending hours upon hours on stat blocks and
reading through fiddly rules (at least, not unless I'm paid to).
He enjoyed the Star Wars game. Then he changed his mind and wanted to be a
superhero. I ran a game of Wild Talents Essential Edition for him, and he
loved it. So, I think we're going to stick with supers for a bit (or maybe
we'll swing into the "secret project" I'm working
on...).
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veller, I still have the set I bought when we went to the opening of Star Wars
(bought it to read as we stood in line)
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn
From: Fred Kiesche
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 11:49 AM
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [GZG] [OFFICIAL] Change to 15mm Free Trader Crew.....
Out of curiosity: Was it the first SF-RPG you bought/played?
I've still got most of my Traveller stuff, even though I haven't used it in
years. I still have Empire of the Petal Throne, kept it even when the
collection of other games was drastically cut back.
Now that my daughter is 10, I'm wondering if I should get her hooked on
something...hmmmm...wonder if I can find "Tunnels & Trolls"!
F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!
> --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Michael <mwsaber6@msn.com> wrote:
From: Michael <mwsaber6@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [GZG] [OFFICIAL] Change to 15mm Free Trader
Crew.....
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 12:43 PM
HEY! I still have a copy of MA!
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn
From: Fred Kiesche
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 10:27 AM
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [GZG] [OFFICIAL] Change to 15mm Free Trader
Crew.....
I always thought the de facto standard of SF-RPG was
Universe from SPI.
Or maybe...Metamorphosis Alpha!
F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!
--- On Fri, 4/24/09, Allan Goodall
> <agoodall@hyperbear.com> wrote:
From: Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com>
Subject: Re: [GZG] [OFFICIAL] Change to 15mm Free Trader
Crew.....
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 12:49 AM
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net> wrote:
> Er, Not for Traveller, the 15mm release of figures for Traveller far
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. (I only have, oh, about 200 or so 15mm Traveller
figures...)
> And being that Traveller is the defacto Standard of SF-Roleplay You
Oh, I think that's debatable. I'd be willing to bet that the various flavours
of Star Wars (D6, D20, Saga Edition, not to mention the
semi-official variants in games like All Tomorrow's Zombies for All
Flesh Must Be Eaten, or the unofficial variants for True 20, Savage
Worlds, and the like) have out-sold Traveller over the years. Yes,
Traveller has been around a lot longer (hmm... what, maybe 10 years longer?
I'd have to do some digging to find out), but Star Wars is currently found in
large chain book stores that don't carry Mongoose and wouldn't know a Marc
Miller if it bit them on their order sheets.
And It wouldn't surprise me if the Star Wars figures -- mostly the
collectible ones, with the close tie in to Star Wars D20 and,
especially, Star Wars Saga Edition -- have out sold Traveller's
unpainted metal figures, and that's not including the bare metal Star Wars
figures from West End Games' run. The Star Wars figures are around 25mm.
While Traveller shows up every now and again on RPG.net, the most
prolific sci-fi topic is "Star Wars: D20 or D6" (trick question; the
real answer is "Star ORE" *grin*) and the D20 forums are pretty busy with Star
Wars questions. That doesn't mean much other than to say that a general RPG
board has more love of Star Wars than Traveller (something that I personally
feel is pretty sad).
Regardless, the vast majority of roleplayers game in 25mm. Traveller is the
primary exception, but taking all RPGs out there in all genres, 25mm and above
is the preferred scale, mostly due to visual appeal.
You could also argue that with what's available RIGHT NOW as easy to purchase
figures, Star Wars and WH40K make up the vast majority of available science
fiction roleplaying miniatures, and they are all 25mm or above. (Yes, I'm not
fighting fair. 40K has only had an RPG out for about, what, two years, so very
few of the 40K figures out there are for RPG use.)
(While I always liked WFRP -- more in spite of its roots than because
of it -- I'm not sure how I feel about Dark Heresy and the other 40K
RPGs. I just don't care much for the background universe. I do have the PDF of
3:16, though. A lot of 3:16 players use 40K miniatures, but you could use any
you have from any manufacturer. If you ever wanted to roleplay genocidal bug
hunt adventures, you owe it to yourself to pick up 3:16. Now THAT is an RPG
that should appear at an ECC sometime! if I ever managed to get to an ECC, I'd
run a game of that. While any miniatures would work, it just cries out for
power armour. Jon has a bunch of figures that would work just dandy for it.
You can paint up bugs for it, too, but I've heard that the best option is to
use green glass beads, as they look more like "blips" on a scanner.)
As much as I prefer 15mm for almost all of my gaming, I still want 25mm for
RPGs. Besides, there are way more Wild West figure lines in 25mm than in 15mm,
which you need to do the browncoated freighter crew type games justice.
(Jon, if you do these in 25mm, any chance you can sculpt the security guy with
a woollen cap instead of a hoodie? *grin*
> On Friday 24 April 2009 18:49:39 Fred Kiesche wrote:
Not sure if it counts, but when I was about 10 I invented a
game system for playing in a Star Wars/Doctor Who hybrid
setting, before I'd heard of roleplaying games. It may have been inspired by
Fighting Fantasy books, especially Starship Traveller, but I decided to run
something more freeform with several players in a group.
Some years later I made up something based around the Elite universe. I'd
played AD&D by then, so it would probably have been D&D like.
First commercial SF game was Star Wars (d6), followed by some GURPS using my
own settings.
Ignoring a couple of one-off games, the first Traveller campaign
I ran was a couple of years ago (GURPS background, my own rules).
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an
On the figure front, SW has probably outsold Traveller. A few Martian Metals
lines vs. Star Wars clix-ish figures. No contest.
On the game and game supplement, no way. Traveller has been going since 1977.
The SWRPG is a 1990s phenomena. It was bigger for a time, maybe is now, but no
way they've matched up to aggregate Traveller sales for 32 years. I know they
show up in more places and that will have helped, but Traveller has sold a lot
of product over the years. Just go try to become a completist (I'm close and
even I, after ridiculous expenditures on
E-bay,
have not got all of the materials). And new stuff comes out of QLI, separate
little presses like ComStar and companies like Mongoose, not mentioning all of
the products done by Gamelords, Judges Guild, GDW, Imperium Games, DGP, the
Keith Brothers, Seeker Gaming Systems and others along the line.
I wish there were some half decent 25mm Aslan and Vargr. After that, maybe
Newts or Dynchia. Most of the other races would just be colour - K'kree
would have to be done in Resin or something to be affordable (heavy figures),
Droyne are boring, and the list of interesting but not frequently
used figures would include Virushii, Dolphins, Jagd-Jagd, Ael-Jael and a
wide panopoly of others.
Jon's 25mm UNSC hardsuits make excellent Imperial Marines. Ainsty's
Ventaurians (with helmet ON!) make excellent 25mm Zhodani combat armour. You
could probably make a variety of other figure lines Solomani easily enough and
mercenaries. It's the aliens that give you some issues.
Oh, and as for the Alliance Troops: FCT troops from GZG ought to do in 25mm.
They aren't perfect, but they'd do.
The not-Blade figure Jon makes (Vampire Hunter with Sword or something)
could do fine for an Operative.
Interestingly, for those who care, look up Rattlehead Games. They've got some
good terrain pieces for 25mm and their 25mm figures seem (from the one
sample I just bought) to be true 25mm (the photographer). One warning -
their terrain pieces vary in size scale - Garbage can good, composter a
bit big, fire hydrants oversize, phone booths about 9 ft tall, pop machines
perfect size, mailboxes good height but waaay wide, etc. The little jeep
they have is a nice looking little vehicle - very much UAZ 469 look to
it -
but their tire moulds suck badly (varying width, varying thickness across a
wheel). But overall, they've got some neat stuff and fill in some niches for
terrain that aren't well filled elsewhere.
TomB
Same here. Minus a torn out page or two.
D.
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net> wrote:
> What is pathetic is so do I...
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Fred Kiesche <recursive_loop@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Out of curiosity: Was it the first SF-RPG you bought/played?
Black box Traveller when I was 13 or so -- never played it.
Then came Star Frontiers -- played the hell out of that.
D.
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,
I've got probably a thousand of your 25mms. I have WEG SW figures. I have
Denizen Ventaurians, Mid-Tech Marines, and some Federation troops. I
have old (Grenadier?) Traveller true 25mm. The Rattlehead Games figues are
25mm
it seems. Battletroops - got them. Some of the star wars clix (esp
aliens
and thinner/smaller humans) can fit well with true 25mm. Assault group
troops claim to be 28mm, but if mounted on a penny, they look like
26-27mm
at most. They fit just fine with my GZG troops (except the overthin old NAC
figures). So there are still a lot of lines that you can buy that are smaller
end of 28mm and most of your recent 25mm sculpts have been a bit heftier so
they work well together (new NAC, for instance).
The question in making any figures is obviously one of return. There are a lot
of variances in 28mm lines. I don't think the GW market is for you
necessarily - they're caricature figures. Yours don't have that
sensibility and people who'll play games where a chainsaw hand is deadlier
than a blaster aren't likely to be much interested in realistic looking
figures (exceptions will exist).
There are a sufficient number of sci fi true 25mm lines if you look around
or small 28mm that are closer to 26-27mm and fit fine once painted and
based to justify (I think) doing a few more 25mm sculpts. You've already got
great lines of 25mm stuff. Presumably you still have the master figures so
could replace moulds. Unless you were planning on moving a lot of stuff over
to 28mm, you'd end up with two figure scales and they might not look good
together.
I think also that, with the cost of white metal (likely to continue to
escalate), we'll eventually see anyone who wants to play anything other than
RPGs or games with less than 20 figures a side start to scale back scale
(arguably, this might mean 15-20mm). True 25mm still has a niche though.
I bought some of your 15mm stuff and they are nice, but I've realized with
aging eyesight that I will never be able to paint them acceptably. Given
painting costs me about the same on 25mm and 15mm (both are a pain for
painters to do camouflage on and the detail on 15mm makes painting a bit
slower to do a good job), I'm not likely to be rushing to buy big 15mm armies.
I'm only one opinion, but I think true 25mm still has life and your existing
ranges are so good that stepping into incompatible territory would be a
shame. You could scale creep a bit towards 26-27mm without too much pain
and call them 28mm (be small for standard 28mm and real small next to Giganto
28mm Heroic aka 30-32mm figures, but you can't have it all...).
For RPG and Skirmish use, 25mm is still a good scale visually. 15mm tends to
lack the range of figure poses and the detail and is quite a bit harder to
paint to the same level of quality. 28mm works for RPGs, but I find most 28mm
figures are steroidally enhanced, melee loving, animal skin wearing
half-man, half-GWborg figures. Not very (even scifi) realistic and not
very appealing.
> On Friday 24 April 2009 20:14:37 Tom B wrote:
To be picky, it was released in 1987 (so as much 80s, as Traveller was
70s).
> Jon's 25mm UNSC hardsuits make excellent Imperial Marines. Ainsty's
Now done by Denizen it seems (or in 6mm from Adler Miniatures). Thanks for
that tip.
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Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:49, Fred Kiesche
<recursive_loop@yahoo.com>wrote:
> Out of curiosity: Was it the first SF-RPG you bought/played?
1st Edition Traveller.... There was a Game store right next to my bus stop on
the way home, which was just after the used book store that had a liberal
trade in policy for used paperbacks and a huge Science Fiction section.
--
Evyn
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> Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 12:14, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wish there were some half decent 25mm Aslan and Vargr. After that,
MegaMinis did a pack of passable Newts as a limited Edition in the last couple
of years. My FLGS still has a blister.
> Most of the other races would just be colour - K'kree would have to be
Virushii, Hiver and the K'Kree got one in the old Grenadier Aliens set. Good
luck finding it....
Jon's 25mm UNSC hardsuits make excellent Imperial Marines.
Yes...
> Ainsty's Ventaurians (with helmet ON!) make excellent 25mm Zhodani
Ainstys? Denizen I believe.
Though I preferred the Battle Clones from Hobby Products Space Lords range as
my Zhodani...
These all are in 25mm and would fit on 20mm bases which when the industry in
general moved away from brought on my frustration. And my subsequant switch
to 15mm....
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com> wrote:
> Star Wars has FTL. So, too, does Traveller. According to latest
I consider all claims that FTL is impossible to fall under Clarke's First Law:
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible,
he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he
is very probably wrong."
And I tend to figure that how we do it will probably fall under his third law
to today's understanding.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
Good points on the scale jon.
Look hes my quick veiw on this subject very bastardised and no where as
indepth as it could be but for a email it will do, you can skip it and go to
the end.
Lets look at the last 40 years of toy soldier gaming not Sci fi wargaming with
figures for a moment. The pinicle of painting and form for a figure in the
60's was the
54mm,1/35th figure the Willie
Britain, the painting style was simple gloss a childs play thing from the
early 1900's to say 1970's
as the market for toy soldiers changed to GI Joes/starwars action
figures, became the new market
and the main stream 54mm,1/35th went from toy shop to hobby shop.
Now lets not forget 1960-70's we also saw the 30mm Spencersmith and
Willies wargameing figures, these were not prepaints, these were what Charles
Grant, used in the Wargame{ classic wargaming book in the UK} now at this time
wargaming is becoming more hobby mainstream
because of generic figure availability, and the the emergence of 1/72nd
plastics
matchbox/airfix.etc in various periods to game with, it is at this piont
where we see the 25mm metals make a big appearance and this seems to be the
new scale for wargaming, we see some new company's enter the market and be the
mainstream for the next 10 to 15 years for this new scale.
Now the late 70's early 80's we see the first signs of scale creep in
the true 25mm 1/72nd metal
figures. We should also remember that 15mm as a scale is making a big
emergence into the market reasons being cost to buy and ease to paint, not to
mention better various print media showing 15mm product.
The market for toy soldiers during the 1980-90's for wargaming in terms
of scale creep is dictated too by the roleplaying firgure manufactuers, also
we see the standards of figure painting modelling by gamers make huge leaps
forward, because of this the scale creep keeps on growing. The days of 400 odd
figure armies are replaced by that of 100 figure armies in the new 28mm
scale, gamers are useing there figures for fantasy/sci fi, roleplaying
then doing a small battle for there campaigns, the issue of space at home and
clubs to game becomes a issue too.
This is where 1/285th 6mm starts to really come into it's own, for
reasons of cost and space, but now people think more smaller figures means i
can put on bigger battles so this defeats the purpose of this scale.
Present day, we see that our true 25mm 1/72nd scale figures of 30yrs ago
are now nearly 35mm to 40mm { the correct scale for a GW space marine is
nearly 54mm in true scale}
Present day, we now see that our 25mm scale is being made in 1/56th
scale plastics, and our market looks to be going back to where it was 35years
ago with plastics being the market dictator.
conclusion do both if you can, 15mm and 25mm dont let other companies or
trends dictate your market. GZG has its own market for people that like the
figures you produce for your games, that can be used for other rules and the
like.
regards james
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
> On the game and game supplement, no way.
This is all an intellectual exercise as there's no way we're going to get
sales data from GDW, Mongoose, Marc Miller's homegrown company, West End
Games, or WotC.
However, I would still argue that even with the 10 year head start, it would
not surprise me in the least to find that the Star Wars incarnations have sold
more copies than Traveller versions.
Yes, Traveller was the big guy for a decade. Traveller was also available
mostly in game stores and mail order. Megatraveller was around at the time
when a lot of comic stores started to sell games. I know as I was working at a
comic store at that time. I only have anecdotal evidence, but the WEG Star
Wars games greatly outsold anything we had with Traveller on it.
Traveller was also out of distribution (except by mail order on CD) for a
while (essentially since the folding of GDW until last year, with the
exception being the abomination that was T4). I'd have to research it, but the
gap between WEG's 2nd Edition Revised Star Wars and D20 Star Wars was a bit
shorter.
I don't know if it means anything, but Amazon has Mongoose's Traveller as
being available since June 4, 2008. Star Wars Saga Edition has been available
since June 5, 2007. STSE has a sales ranking of 16,938. Traveller is 304,645.
I'd sure like to know how many units the
difference is, but that seems to me like a pretty hard-to-beat number.
WotC's sales numbers, to make a game sustainable, are just in an entirely
different league from other game companies.
> Oh, and as for the Alliance Troops: FCT troops from GZG ought to do in
Cool.
> The not-Blade figure Jon makes (Vampire Hunter with Sword or
That could work.
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Ryan Fisk <ryan.fisk@gmail.com> wrote:
Sure, but that's not how the scientific method works.
I hope I'm wrong, as the universe is more interesting if I am, but I have more
than a sneaking suspicion that FTL is impossible.
FTL is probably just wishful thinking. I really do believe the universe is
that cruel...
(And Clarke wasn't exactly an objective spectator when he wrote that.)
G'day,
> So, if we were to do the Trader Crew (or any other figures for that
I'd go 25mm, but could live with slim 38. 30-32 is ok for aliens or the
odd "big guy" but is usually "too big" for my liking (especially when they
have this tendency to stick on outrageously large guns.... <fighting hard to
resist phallic cutting remark here....>)
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com>
wrote:
> Sure, but that's not how the scientific method works.
Anyone stating that FTL is impossible is believing such as an article of faith
about future science. We know it can't be done at our current level of
understanding, but that is all. Science stops there, everything past that is
faith or soothsaying, not science.
> I hope I'm wrong, as the universe is more interesting if I am, but I
I take it as an article of faith that the universe and the future are much
stranger than we usually imagine. An example would be a future where FTL
doesn't matter because we live for much longer and taking a few thousand years
to get somewhere is no big deal. Not living to see
that hypothetical time is where it gets cruel :-)
> (And Clarke wasn't exactly an objective spectator when he wrote that.)
Objectivity is for computers and cameras, I don't believe people can be
objective. Clarke was telling us to be skeptical, I consider that a good idea
and very scientific. I think he was also telling us to be optimistic, which I
think is more fun.
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> Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Ryan Fisk <ryan.fisk@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Allan Goodall
And I'd like to toss into the hat that back, what, 50, 60 years ago, people
said it was impossible to travel faster than the speed of sound. Humans just
couldn't do it. We eventually figured it out. Therefore, by *that* track
record, I believe we'll figure out how to get ourselves out of this solar
system in a timely manner (i.e., before Sol goes red giant on us ;-) ).
That is, assuming the Ixx or the Kra'Vak don't find us first...
Mk
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Indy <indy.kochte@gmail.com> wrote:
At the same time, there were scientists who believed it was possible, and they
even predicted sonic booms.
I readily admit that fiction and games are much more interesting with FTL.
I just find it amusing the number of people who take umbrage at FTL being
described as "fantasy" in spite of a lack of scientific evidence to the
contrary.
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> Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 19:18, Indy <indy.kochte@gmail.com> wrote:
> And I'd like to toss into the hat that back, what, 50, 60 years ago,
They said the same thing about 50-50 mph back when the auto was coming
into
it's own...
--
Evyn
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 19:18, Indy
....And 30mph (or thereabouts) back in the early 19th Century just
when the first railways were being designed - no human body could
POSSIBLY stand travelling as fast as Stevenson was proposing.... ;-)
Jon (GZG)
> --
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:36 AM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net> wrote:
> They said the same thing about 50-50 mph back when the auto was coming
And yet 19th century trains had exceeded that speed without engineers being
unable to breathe.
People believe, and continue to believe, weird things...
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Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com>wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:36 AM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net>
Yeah, crazy-@$$ed ideas like FTL being "impossible"... :-D
<ducks> <runsFTL>
Mk