[GZG] List moderation was: Dear John

> At 8:35 PM -0500 5/15/08, Allan Goodall wrote:

Well, the list can be set or changed can it not? What's the list system
format?

We could go Groups.google.com. I'm on more than a handful of lists there. Get
enough moderators and you can go in and set individuals to moderate or not or
the whole list. And you can set individuals to other varying status.

Wouldn't this be a bit of an over reaction to the initial over reaction?

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don't like the idea of this going to a Forum set-up.

> On 5/15/08, Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Chris Slavensky wrote:

Moderation is fine but, and I'm gonna say it, only in moderation. I do however
oppose a change in format from the traditional mailing list.

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 9:14 PM, Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Well, the list can be set or changed can it not?

I'm not advocating a change to a web forum, though I suspect that at some
point it's going to be inevitable.

One thing I really like about RPG.net is the Tangency forum, which
advocates off-topic messages, giving folks a place to vent, etc.

I also don't mind the moderators (though others have complained, usually those
who have been moderated). Personal attacks are not accepted. Neither is
threadcrapping. Neither is usually much of a problem on the GZG List...
usually...

Am I the only that cracked up laughing when Enzo titled his post "Dear
John..."?

As long as at the end of the day we can laugh and be civil then we don't

need any moderation.

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 9:33 PM, Tony Wilkinson <twilko@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> Am I the only that cracked up laughing when Enzo titled his post "Dear

I snickered, then hit Mark As Read...

For those who don't get the Dear John joke, Wikipedia rides, cavalry like, to
your rescue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dear_john_letter

> As long as at the end of the day we can laugh and be civil then we

We also don't need a forum, or a Google Group. Please. Mailling lists FTW.

> Tony Wilkinson wrote:

> John..."?

> On Thu, 15 May 2008 22:14:53 -0400, Ryan Gill writes:

Sorry, moving so reading the list less. Its easy to add extra moderators to a
mailman list, so if there's a need, that can get done today. I'll have to skim
back in my unread archives to see what the initial issue was.

> <<Chris Slavensky wrote:

Moderation is fine but, and I'm gonna say it, only in moderation. I do however
oppose a change in format from the traditional mailing list.>>>

I have to agree, yeah people get hot and bother, and I notice that the 1st
thing that some people want is moderation. Just remember while people are
Bashing John it took two them to Tango... And it not the 1st time these two
have gone at it either.

I really don't want to see this become a forum group. After all who is going
to do the Moderation always an issue

In Memory of Russ Manduca 7/22/67-1/8/08

Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have
hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else
thereafter. Â Â Â Â ~ Ernest Hemmingway

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> May 16, 2008, at 8:40 AM, docagren@aol.com wrote:

> I really don't want to see this become a forum group. After all

"Egalitarians adapt to aristocracies very well, as long as they get to be the
aristocrats."

Capt. Cordelia Naismith, Beta Colony Survey Fleet

> On Thu, May 15, 2008 7:14 pm, Ryan Gill wrote:

Several years ago I offered to host such a web forum. The offer is still open.
I'd be willing to format it and set it up to Jon's spec.

I am in the pro forum camp. I find forums are easier to follow specific
threads and to weed out those threads you don't care to follow. They are also
easier to look up older threads without having to navigate a separate archive
site. At least this has been my experience.

-Eli

[quoted original message omitted]

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Not sure I deserve an opinion - as a relative newcomer and most time
lurker, but a web forum would be more my cup of tea... not to say they don't
have their problems, but they have their bonusses too.

imo.

Andy<html><div></div></html>> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 21:21:04 -0700>
From: fugugaipan@spikyfishthing.com> To:
gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu> Subject: Re: [GZG] List moderation
was: Dear John> > > On Thu, May 15, 2008 7:14 pm, Ryan Gill wrote:> > At
8:35 PM -0500 5/15/08, Allan Goodall wrote:> >>> >>This message is the
best argument I've seen for taking the GZG mailing> >>list to a moderated web
forum, and I'm one of those who've opposed> >>such a move. On RPG.net, there'd
be calls to "take it to Tangency",> >>and probably a banning or two for
personal attacks.> >> > Well, the list can be set or changed can it not?
What's the list system> > format?> > Several years ago I offered to host such
a web forum. The offer is still> open. I'd be
willing to format it and set it up to Jon's spec.> > Jaime> > -- > It
takes only one drink to get me drunk. The trouble is, I can't remember> if
it's the thirteenth or the fourteenth.> George Burns> > >
_______________________________________________> Gzg-l mailing list>

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Not sure I deserve an opinion - as a relative newcomer and most time
lurker, but a web forum would be more my cup of tea... not to say they don't
have their problems, but they have their bonusses too.

imo.

Andy<html><div></div></html>> Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 21:21:04 -0700>
From: fugugaipan@spikyfishthing.com> To:
gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu> Subject: Re: [GZG] List moderation
was: Dear John> > > On Thu, May 15, 2008 7:14 pm, Ryan Gill wrote:> > At
8:35 PM -0500 5/15/08, Allan Goodall wrote:> >>> >>This message is the
best argument I've seen for taking the GZG mailing> >>list to a moderated web
forum, and I'm one of those who've opposed> >>such a move. On RPG.net, there'd
be calls to "take it to Tangency",> >>and probably a banning or two for
personal attacks.> >> > Well, the list can be set or changed can it not?
What's the list system> > format?> > Several years ago I offered to host such
a web forum. The offer is still> open. I'd be
willing to format it and set it up to Jon's spec.> > Jaime> > -- > It
takes only one drink to get me drunk. The trouble is, I can't remember> if
it's the thirteenth or the fourteenth.> George Burns> > >
_______________________________________________> Gzg-l mailing list>

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:43 AM, Andy Hemming
> <nonsense_factory@hotmail.com> wrote:

Everyone deserves an opinion--but if you express it in public, I
reserve the right to slap it down if it's silly.

Which yours isn't, I'm just stating a principle.

Personally, as one of the two merry combatants who provoked the fracas that
led to this conversation, let me make the following Apologia.

I am who I am. I will not change. I have, I think, become more moderate in my
old age, but what passes for moderation with me is still not suitable for High
Tea.

I enjoy argument. It's a delightful pastime, a convivial spectator sport, and
it passes the time. I try to argue in accord with certain rules. One of those
rules is that you make statements of fact which are, by definition, factual.
If you make provably false statements, statements I can prove false with but a
few minutes upon Google, and refuse to back down when presented with evidence
to the contrary
(anyone may, by accident, make mistaken statements--but an adult
acknowledges his imperfections and admits error) I reserve the right to loose
respect for you and start to treat you with contempt, as someone undeserving
of being treated as a rational adult. At some point when you stick to your
errors in the face of reality you are knowingly lying, or are so stupid as to
be ineducable. Either is grounds for contempt. What interpretations you draw
from those facts are up for debate, but I believe in objective reality.

If, for instance, you wish to discuss Vietnam and demonstrate you have no
knowledge what so ever of the difference between the People's Army of Vietnam
(PAVN) which are the conventional armed forces of the Socialist (or
Democratic, depending on year) Republic of Vietnam, and the National
Liberation Front (NLF) aka the Viet Cong (VC) which was an insurgent force
based in and largely manned by (in varying degrees depending on year) persons
from the Republic of Vietnam, you fall into the category of a small child
attempting to argue with adults. You become not entertaining to debate with,
but in short order, annoying. And if I'm offended by the tantrum of a child,
it reflects on me, not on him. A child cannot help being what he is, and many
people in today's society never become adults mentally no matter how old they
get chronologically. I try to assume that I'm speaking to adults until proven
otherwise.

If the mailing list moves to forum, I will migrate with it. I will not change
my means nor my ends. If I'm banned, it is not the end of the world. Teh
internetz is NOT serious business compared to, say, playing frogger with
Iranian EFPs, which is what I'll hopefully be doing within the next few
months. Do with it as you will.

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Mon, May 19, 2008 at 6:44 AM, Andy Hemming
<nonsense_factory@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Not sure I deserve an opinion - as a relative newcomer and most time
Everyone deserves an opinion.

Mine:

Email list: reactive Forum: proactive

Takes a lot more time/energy for some of us to be proactive than
reactive.
:-/   There are so many forums out there that I could participate in for
a variety of topics and interests, but I simply have zero time to do so. So
I'm a fan of low-volume email lists for this reason. :-)

Mk

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Mon, May 19, 2008 at 6:44 AM, Andy Hemming
> <<mailto:nonsense_factory@hotmail.com>nonsense_factory@hotmail.com>

I think this has been asked before, but opinions may have changed...... would
it necessarily mean the death of the list if we had a forum AS WELL? I'd be
happy with both running in parallel, so folks could frequent one, the other or
both as choice and time allowed.

I've had several requests for a forum attached to the GZG website, which would
be fairly simple especially with Jaime's kind (and longstanding) offer to help
run it. But I seem to recall that when this was last mooted, there were a
number of strongly dissenting voices of the opinion that the list would then
fold through lack of use and we'd lose several old (in list terms!!) and
valued members, so the idea got shelved.

Thoughts now??

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I like forums then! :)<html><div></div></html>

Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 12:52:42 +0100To:
gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.eduFrom: jon@gzg.comSubject: Re: [GZG] List
moderation was: Dear John

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 6:44 AM, Andy Hemming
> <nonsense_factory@hotmail.com> wrote:
Not sure I deserve an opinion - as a relative newcomer and most time
lurker, but a web forum would be more my cup of tea... not to say they don't
have their problems, but they have their bonusses too. Everyone deserves an
opinion.Mine:Email list: reactiveForum:
proactiveTakes a lot more time/energy for some of us to be proactive
than reactive. :-/   There are so many forums out there that I could
participate in for a variety of topics and interests, but I simply have
zero time to do so. So I'm a fan of low-volume email lists for this
reason. :-)Mk

I think this has been asked before, but opinions may have changed...... would
it necessarily mean the death of the list if we had a forum AS WELL? I'd be
happy with both running in parallel, so folks could frequent one, the other or
both as choice and time allowed.

I've had several requests for a forum attached to the GZG website, which would
be fairly simple especially with Jaime's kind (and longstanding) offer to help
run it. But I seem to recall that when this was last mooted, there were a
number of strongly dissenting voices of the opinion that the list would then
fold through lack of use and we'd lose several old (in list terms!!) and
valued members, so the idea got shelved.

Thoughts now??

Jon (GZG)

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say go with a forum AS WELL. GZG realted topics are already being discussed on
other forums anyway. It would be good practice to offer an official one and
bring more punters Jon's way.

Jeremey www.minigerm.com

 Re: [GZG] List moderation was: DearJohnOn Mon, May 19, 2008 at 6:44
> AM, AndyHemming <nonsense_factory@hotmail.com> wrote:
Not sure I deserve an opinion - as a relative newcomer andmost time
lurker, but a web forum would be more my cup of tea... notto say they don't
have their problems, but they have their bonussestoo. Â Everyone deserves an
opinion.

Mine:

Email list: reactive Forum: proactive

Takes a lot more time/energy for some of us to be proactive
thanreactive. :-/   There are so many forums out there that Icould
participate in for a variety of topics and interests, but Isimply have
zero time to do so. So I'm a fan of low-volume email listsfor this
reason. :-)

Mk

I think this has been asked before, but opinions may havechanged...... would
it necessarily mean the death of the list if wehad a forum AS WELL? I'd be
happy with both running in parallel, sofolks could frequent one, the other or
both as choice and timeallowed.

I've had several requests for a forum attached to the GZGwebsite, which would
be fairly simple especially with Jaime's kind(and longstanding) offer to help
run it. But I seem to recall thatwhen this was last mooted, there were a
number of strongly dissentingvoices of the opinion that the list would then
fold through lack ofuse and we'd lose several old (in list terms!!) and valued
members, sothe idea got shelved.

Thoughts now??

Jon (GZG)

Â

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> Mon, May 19, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:

> s been asked before, but opinions may have changed...... would it
offer
> to help run it. But I seem to recall that when this was last mooted,

I think if you go with both you dilute and lose too much. Some people will
remain on a mailing list, others will leap onto the forums, and the dynamics
of interaction between the two groups will be severed, or severely degraded.
One or the other is the only real option.

I'm personally still not in favor of a forum. Takes a lot more time and energy
than I can devote to be active, or heck, even lurk, on a forum with any sort
of regular basis.

I did try to be active on the prototype GZG test forum last year. But even
with the extremely low volume of traffic it had back then, I wasn't able to
"keep up" or even monitor. I eventually lost the link due to my inability to
devote time to it.

Others out there may not have Other Lives or Whatnots and thus have more
free active net time. ;-)  Forums would work well for them. :-)

Just my two bits worth. :-)

Mk

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would be just as happy with a forum, but only if it allowed some easy
method of showing all the posts that were new/unread since my last
visit. Some forums do this, some do not. I tend to find that the ones that
instantly show me what is new get visited regularly, the others only now and
then (since I have to manually filter out the new stuff from the stuff I have
already seen). Just sorting by date is not enough, because then I have
remember when I last visited :-)

Steve

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I'm on lots of forums, and frankly, they don't measure up to this list.

Adding a forum ALSO would probably dilute interest without adding much value.

One thing that GZG might benefit from, though, is a GZG wiki, perhaps running
mediawiki (the engine Wikipedia runs on). I could see lots of value in taking
background material or house rules that aren't necessarily official and making
them articles on a wiki. Similar to the platoons article. Also, one perennial
complaint is there are a ton
of miniatures for which we don't have pictures-- this is something the
community can actively help you with, by taking the catalog (linking to your
online store) and providing indices of all your miniatures with product
number, photos, links to store and national affiliations.

It would also provide some longevity to stuff that appears on this mailing
list, like the "Siege of Sol" emails, or Beth's population numbers.

Like any wiki, the downside is the need for enthusiasts to patrol the
wiki for abuses and well-meaning but illegal uses of copyrighted
material, etc. But many small wikis do quite well with that.

Rob

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ing as everyone is giving opinions, here's mine. I like forums and lists
equally, and give more time than I probably should to several already. From a
commercial point of view, I think a forum attached to the website would be a
good thing, a way to promote discussion amongst the new recruits, so to speak.
However I've always liked the GZG mailing list, with all its foibles, just the
way it is. I'd like to think that it could continue in its own idiosyncratic
manner alongside any such new development. I don't feel its a case of one or
the other. Both address different needs and, as seems clear from the answers
given here so far, attract different crowds. Personally, I'd continue lurking
on the list with the occasional contribution when I feel I have something to
add, but that won't stop me from dipping into a forum should one appear.
Thats the beauty of the list - its still there in my inbox every morning
(most times...) waiting for me to catch up. Steve.

      __________________________________________________________
Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html

Hmmm, I prefer the mailing list as it makes it relatively easy for me to see
that there is something new. A forum needs a bit more action on my part.
However, if the mailing list transmogrifies into a forum, then please let it
be a forum where I can easily see what is new since my last visit.

> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 6:52 AM, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:

> I think this has been asked before, but opinions may have

There are GZG forums out there. I used to belong to the Yahoo
Fullthrust-Stargrunt forum.

The problem with hosting a forum is that you will fracture the discussion.
This happens with Arc Dream, the roleplaying company I've been writing for.
There's an official Arc Dream forum, plus there's the Project Nemesis web site
for topics about the game system in general (with particular emphasis on one
of Arc Dream's products), there are discussions on RPG.net, and then there are
two Yahoo Groups for separate Arc Dream stuff.

Shane at Arc Dream posts on all of these sites whenever there's something
official needing to go out. Are you willing to do that, Jon?

Even with Shane posting everywhere, the main "go-to" board is Project
Nemesis, which means there are people hanging out at the other locations who
miss the "main" discussions.

If you create a forum, you will fracture the game base. That's not necessarily
a bad thing. You might find the forum attracts a lot of new fans, while the
mailing list does not. You might find that the standard, typical "newbie"
questions all show up on the board while the GZG grognards discuss different
stuff.

However, at some point one or the other is going to become the "go-to"
location, with the other locations falling further and further out of favour.

You have to ask yourself if the forum will increase your business. And, if it
will increase your business, is it worth losing touch with
some of the long-time GZG customers who won't migrate to a forum (or
who will migrate but only visit it on rare occasions).

> But I seem to recall that when this was last mooted, there

I think you probably would lose several long term customers. Whether or not
that's a bad thing depends on whether or not a forum would increase your
sales. It's not the first company that's folded because they alienated their
loyal customers. It's also not the first company that found considerable
growth by unshackling themselves from older customers who were keeping them
static.

For the record, I prefer the mailing list.

I mentioned several forums in my last message. It just occurred to me that
it's been over a month since I've checked several of them, and I really need
to check more often.

There lies the problem. I have to remember to go there. I'm deep in the middle
of roleplaying stuff right now, but I've been keeping up with the GZG lists
because they hit my inbox. If not for that, I wouldn't have been reading any
GZG stuff for months.

In theory, Yahoo Groups was supposed to fit in the middle between mailing
lists and forums. It has a web interface and you can get the
messages e-mailed to you. Yahoo dropped the ball. The forum interface
is just a limited e-mail interface with no ability to thread. Yahoo's
e-mailing frequently messes up and drops people.

If someone could come up with a web forum with a vibrant e-mail
component, that would be wonderful. Until then, I'd prefer to have it
as an e-mail list.

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I wouldnt suggest a forum If I thought it'd put Jon out of buisiness...

I never thought of a forum like that, as something with that much power... I'd
prefer to use a forum that gathered you guys together, allowed more searching,
allowed you to see at a glance whjat was new since your last visit etc...

- looking over the mailing list archives I can see that you have a
fairly hardcore rules discussion going on here  - As a relative newcomer
to GZG gaming (only 18 months or so) scouting through the archives has
been useful, but not easy (never easy!) - and I do feel somewhat drowned
in discussions sometimes... which wouldnt be the case if it was forum based &
I chose web only...

However web searching has provided me with alot of info, from Hyperbear
& others (thanks all) - I do use a few forums though... they can have a
sense of community in the OT sections as well as the more focussed sections...
but they do need traffic... I would probably use a forum more often (but am
also banned at work from much web activity)... god I don't know, I'm
rambling...

Its up to you long timers, its more your community than mine, they are more
your discussions than mine..

Best wishes

Andy<html><div></div></html>> Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 09:36:27 -0500>
From: agoodall@hyperbear.com> To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [GZG] List moderation was: Dear John> > On Mon, May 19,
2008 at 6:52 AM, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:> > > I think this has
been asked before, but opinions may have changed......> > would it necessarily
mean the death of the list if we had a forum AS WELL?> > There are GZG forums
out there. I used to belong to the Yahoo>
Fullthrust-Stargrunt forum.> > The problem with hosting a forum is that
you will fracture the> discussion. This happens with Arc Dream, the
roleplaying company I've> been writing for. There's an official Arc Dream
forum, plus there's> the Project Nemesis web site for topics about the game
system in> general (with particular emphasis on one of Arc Dream's products),>
there are discussions on RPG.net, and then there are two Yahoo Groups> for
separate Arc Dream stuff.> > Shane at Arc Dream posts on all of these sites
whenever there's> something official needing to go out. Are you willing to do
that, Jon?> > Even with Shane posting
everywhere, the main "go-to" board is Project> Nemesis, which means
there are people hanging out at the other> locations who miss the "main"
discussions.> > If you create a forum, you will fracture the game base. That's
not> necessarily a bad thing. You might find the forum attracts a lot of> new
fans, while the mailing list does not. You might find that the> standard,
typical "newbie" questions all show up on the board while> the GZG grognards
discuss different stuff.> > However, at some
point one or the other is going to become the "go-to"> location, with
the other locations falling further and further out of> favour.> > You have to
ask yourself if the forum will increase your business.> And, if it will
increase your business, is it worth losing touch with> some of
the long-time GZG customers who won't migrate to a forum (or> who will
migrate but only visit it on rare occasions).> > > But I seem to recall that
when this was last mooted, there> > were a number of strongly dissenting
voices of the opinion that the list> > would then fold through lack of use and
we'd lose several old (in list> > terms!!) and valued members, so the idea got
shelved.> > Thoughts now??> > I think you probably would lose several long
term customers. Whether> or not that's a bad thing depends on whether or not a
forum would> increase your sales. It's not the first company that's folded
because> they alienated their loyal customers. It's also not the first
company> that found considerable growth by unshackling themselves from older>
customers who were keeping them static.> > -- > Allan Goodall

Just to add a few more points on this topic.

Allan raises some good points regarding the use of Forums. I currently visit
four forums on a regular basis and as well as the option of just seeing the
posts made since my last visit they also have
a feature that e-mail's to notify me of a reply to a topic I have posted
on. I've used this to great effect on playtest forums where you need to keep
pace with an active conversation.

So they sort of act like mailing lists if you want them to.

I find the ability to follow threads easier on a forum, not having to
worry about cutting out repeated text in replying to e-mails is also a
bonus. You also cut down on private posts going to the whole list:) (guilty as
charged on at least one occasion!).

I agree that a forum may reduce the traffic from this list and that some
members of this list will not move to a forum. But I also see an
official forum with a GZG e-mail newsletter where Jon can inform the
membership of deals and new items as the way to go.

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> On May19 08, at 01:21, Eli Arndt wrote:

> I am in the pro forum camp. I find forums are easier to follow

I have the opposite experience, forums tend to be slower for me. I can scan my
Email in a much shorter time, forums I have to open each thread to find if
there is something interesting, or if I find something to reply too it might
be buried in the middle and be impossible to meaningfully respond to. Forums
also are very
restrictive when it comes to spawning sub-threads when a topic
bifurcates into multiple related threads.

Mail comes to me, thus I pay attention to it, a web forum I have to go to,
much less likely for me to check on a daily basis. i.e. forums fragment and
slow my participation.

I wouldn't mind forums if they could be set up to forward new topics and posts
to email as well as receive replies from email also.

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> On May19 08, at 07:46, Allan Goodall wrote:

> For the record, I prefer the mailing list.

Ditto!

> If someone could come up with a web forum with a vibrant e-mail

Yes, this is what I was saying.

As a secondary not Moderation on Forums tend to feel much more punitive than
the cooperative style that tends to exists on most mailing lists.

> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:11 AM, <germ@germy.co.uk> wrote:

Not quite. You still have to subscribe to the thread, and you still have to go
to the site regularly to see if there are any new threads that interest you.

It helps, but it's still "pull" instead of "push".

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net> wrote:
> I have the opposite experience, forums tend to be slower for me.

TomB will likely chime in here when he reads this on the Digest. He and I have
been discussing this. He finds the Digest easy to scan through for topics that
interest him, and finds the Digest much easier to use than a forum.

As far as I know there are no forums that offer the equivalent of digests (one
single mailing per day with everything in it).

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Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com> wrote:

> For the record, I prefer the mailing list.

Precisely where I was going with the reactive/proactive remark earlier.
:-)

Mk

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> Mon, May 19, 2008 at 11:11 AM, <germ@germy.co.uk> wrote:

> Just to add a few more points on this topic.

The problem (for those of us who don't have the time to be proactive on
forums) is that you don't get any email that covers newly posted
threads/topics. Only the ones you've posted or have specifically
requested a 'watch' to get emails about a particular thread. There is one
forum I visit
on a semi-regular basis, and only one thread on that forum, and only
because
it is a regularly posted-to thread and I get emails when somethings
posted to said thread. I have watches on many, many other threads, but all
those threads have gone stale (and some may have well been archived off) due
to lack of conversation.

Threads/topics on forums are transitory. Email is...well, okay, not
forEVER,
but for a darn long time. :-)  And unlikely you'd miss anything you had
any serious interest in.

> I find the ability to follow threads easier on a forum, not having to

I also.

I still have the order of badgers from it. :-/

> I agree that a forum may reduce the traffic from this list and that

I agree there are some very nice perks and benefits to forums. And if the GZG
list ultimately goes forum, I will likely fade into the occasional visit
lurker dude. I know how proactive you have to be on a forum, and I know how
much time I (don't) have available to *be* proactive. :-/

Mk

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h list and forum would be my choice since I don't like forums. I have neither
time nor patience to "go" to forums (those I've been on before just faded
away) but many people like forums and forums might attract "new blood" so to
speak since they have an active web presence unlike an email list which
hasn't.

I suppsoe it helps that I set my email software up to filter everything from
GZG into its own folder sorted by thread. Saved as a txt file means I can read
it offlline on a txt reader (sitting in front of a computer all day is not my
idea of fun).

> Ground Zero Games wrote:

> the idea got shelved.

Add one vote to stick with a mailing list, for pretty much all the reasons
that have been mentioned by others.

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ARK HUMOR MODE ON> I feel compelled to point out that all "Right Thinking
People" realize the best choice is to send a written comment via post to
someone who will retype, make copies (preferably mimeographed), staple
together and distribute via return post to each of the contibutors. By this
means we would have hard copy, life long reference material without dependence
on
this fly-by-night pipedream called the internet. It worked damn fine
when I was playing RPGs in the 70s, and I think it's just as viable today.
(Insert your own IronMan "That's the way Dad did it..." parody here.) I happen
to like Yahoo groups. I think it's a good compromise as it covers individual
emails, digests, and can be viewed on line in a
semi-forum mode. They are also public and easy to search for, so they
might actually attract more folks to the games. Unfortunately there is a
religious zeal against Yahoo Groups. I am on dozens of groups, and I have no
problems. Yes, the rare spam leaking through about dating services and male
enhancement products would detract from the deeply spiritual flow of sheep
jokes.
</DARK HUMOR MODE OFF>
The list functions, it meets most of the needs of most of those on it. It is
unlikely to change unless we cease to have access to an email list server.
Anyone have any game related topics?

I've been trying to stay out of this one, but I'd like toss in my two cents at
this point.

My vote is "I'd probably end up lurking on either."  (8-)  And that
whatever Jon T. wants, Jon T. should get, because, in the end, it's his
business and he gets to decide how he wants to market it.

In my experience with other groups, if there's enough support, both a list and
a forum can survive and cross pollinate each other. Hell, depending on the BBS
software, it should be pretty easy to setup a bot that sends new forum posts
(or posts that start new threads) to the mailing list, and new mailing list
posts to a forum. So, both sides could keep track of one another. (Keep the
mailing list posts in their own forum, define
thread by subject line, and have the forum threads locked read-only, to
keep update and reply issues to a minimum... but that's tech detail stuff
people could work on later.)

The thing is, you'll never find agreement; it's like asking whether or not
people prefer to listen to CDs or live music. In the end, it comes down to
personal preference. Some people are always going to be disappointed, and
there's always going to be a couple to whom this is such an important issue,
that they'll take their business and attention
elsewhere, no matter what you decide -- and there's not a damned thing
that can be done about it.

Change is inevitable; even for members who've done a lot for
the game, eventually people walk away or say good-bye.  If people leave
over this, it's like the other people who have left the list for various
reasons already. New groups of people will step to the forefront. With all due
respect to the valued people and their contributions, nobody here is
indispensable, except Jon T and GZG.

So, in other words, I'd also like to cast a vote for "this discussion has
eaten up way too much bandwidth already over multiple time periods, can we
agree to disagree, setup the forum finally, run both, and get back
to important things, like sheep?" (8-)   If the list fails, it fails --
but if the survival of GZG truly depends on the half-dozen or dozen or
however many 'hardcore' members who would leave the GZG community behind in
the event of a list failure, then I would argue that Jon has more important
issues to deal with then whether or not adding an 'official' forum is an
appropriate way to proceed.

JGH

> On May 19, 2008, at 5:57 PM, mxconnell@optonline.net wrote:

I'm trying to think of something that hasn't been asked before.
Hmmm....

Anyone up for asking for access to the playtest list? Or when FT3 will hit the
streets?

How about if it's illegal to shoot a.50 M2HB at a human target? Sheep? What if
it was a Christian sheep?

Fighters? Anyone up for another fighter conversation? What if they were
piloted by sheep?

Bleah.

Damo

> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 07:51:57PM -0400, Damo wrote:

> Fighters? Anyone up for another fighter conversation? What if they

"Gosh! A star."

"Gosh! A planet."

"Gosh! A Jeanne d'Arc class fleet carri"BOOM

R

> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Damo <damosan@gmail.com> wrote:

Can we playtest the FT3 rules for fighters armed with.50 M2HBs piloted by
Christian sheep?

> Can we playtest the FT3 rules for fighters armed with .50 M2HBs

It's at times like this that I grab some sculpting putty and start to
visualise Sheep in spacesuits, but then a sensible voice says "step away from
the putty":)

It's at times like this that I grab some sculpting putty and start to
visualise Sheep in spacesuits, but then a sensible voice says "step away from
the putty":)

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surprised that no-one has suggested a Google Group. All the
advantages of a mailing list (with individual emails or digests) with all the
advantages of a forum (threaded conversations etc) And since Bobby has already
kindly set one up at:
http://groups.google.com/group/gzg-group

all that remains is for us all to join the group and start posting!

I would recommend that Matt Seidl be a group administrator though.

Mike

<-----Original Message----->
> From: mxconnell@optonline.net [mxconnell@optonline.net]
It is
> unlikely to change unless we cease to have access to an email list

<span id=m2wTl><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
style="font-size:13.5px">_______________________________________________
________________<BR>Get the Free email that has everyone talking at <a
href=http://www.mail2world.com
target=new>http://www.mail2world.com</a><br>  <font
color=#999999>Unlimited Email Storage &#150; POP3 &#150; Calendar &#150;
SMS &#150; Translator &#150; Much More!</font></font></span>

> On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 09:06:58AM -0700, Mike Elliott wrote:

And all you need is a Google account. No thanks. They're bad enough net
citizens that I really can't recommend that anyone deal with them. (USENET
spam, email spam, failure to respect robots.txt when spidering web sites.)

--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_9300_1211388000_2
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re are already a couple of these out there.

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Mike Elliott" <mike_elliott@mail2world.com>
I'm surprised that no-one has suggested a Google Group. All the
advantages of a mailing list (with individual emails or digests) with all the
advantages of a forum (threaded conversations etc) And since Bobby has already
kindly set one up at:
http://groups.google.com/group/gzg-group

all that remains is for us all to join the group and start posting!

I would recommend that Matt Seidl be a group administrator though.

Mike

<-----Original Message----->
> From: mxconnell@optonline.net [mxconnell@optonline.net]
It is
> unlikely to change unless we cease to have access to an email list

> On Wed, 21 May 2008 16:40:00 +0000, emu2020@comcast.net writes:
boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_9300
> _1211388000_1"
It is
> unlikely to change unless we cease to have access to an email list
#1010ff 2
> px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From:
"Mike Ellio
> tt" &lt;mike_elliott@mail2world.com&gt; <BR>I'm surprised that no-one
<BR>&gt;
> From: mxconnell@optonline.net [mxconnell@optonline.net]<BR>&gt;Sent:
5/19/2008
> 10:57:51 PM<BR>&gt;To:
gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu<BR>&gt;Subject: Re: [
> GZG] List moderation was: Dear John<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&lt;/DARK HUMOR MODE
Unfortunat
> ely there is a religious zeal against Yahoo<BR>&gt;Groups. I am on
size=2>__
> _____________________________________________________________<BR>Get
target
> =new>http://www.mail2world.com</A><BR><FONT color=#999999>Unlimited

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Matthew L. Seidl <seidl@wraith.com> wrote:
> on things like this. But some people have serious issues with Google,

It looks like we'll lose someone if we move off anything that isn't a
strict e-mail list.

It would be interesting, though probably impossible to quantify, to know how
many people we're losing because we aren't using something else.

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m, how many poses did you have in mind?

[quoted original message omitted]

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> I'm surprised that no-one has suggested a Google Group. [snip]
Now I'm even MORE surprised! I have never had any problems with spam on my
Google account. Usually an email account attracts spam when you put your email
address into a web site from where a bot can harvest it. That's nothing to do
with Google. Even then Googlemail (Gmail) has the best spam filter I've yet
come across.

<span id=m2wTl><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
style="font-size:13.5px">_______________________________________________
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> Um, I actually already have gzg-l@groups.google.com. :) I think ahead

Intrigued. I manage a Google groiup for a UK charity with over 200members on
the group. Been running over a year. Never had any complaints.

I should also point out that you only need a Google account if you want to
access the web based Google group. If all you want to do is send and receive
emails then you don't need a Google account (although you have to request that
a manager sign you up to the group).

<span id=m2wTl><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
style="font-size:13.5px">_______________________________________________
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color=#999999>Unlimited Email Storage &#150; POP3 &#150; Calendar &#150;
SMS &#150; Translator &#150; Much More!</font></font></span>

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mainly set up the google group for my own personal reasons. I couldn't get
access to this list and the yahoo group from my work computer, but had access
to google. I get restless sometimes and want to read the GZG stuff, so I just
created a google group to read the messages. I like the way google groups puts
the messages in threads. But its just a reading group. I go to my email
account to mail to the list directly.

I understand that there are some, or many, that have problems with google. I
didn't mean to advocate google; just the archiving tool that I use their
googlegroup site for.

I am one of those that don't believe that we have any privacy and that
personal privacy is a bedtime story that we tell ourselves, so we can cope.
Heck, I still behave as though I have some privacy: it gives me a warm feeling
inside. That's why I can use google; because I "know" that they, or others,
will use my information against me. I'm not paranoid or anything.. no.no.

:) Bobby

PS-I tend to use forums everyday, so forums don't give me any problems.
I use mailing lists also. So I'm good whichever way the group decides to
interact.

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no, they have uplifted sheep!!! How desperate are they for soldiers?

-Eli

-------------- Original message --------------
From: mxconnell@optonline.net

Hmmm, how many poses did you have in mind?

[quoted original message omitted]

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well you won't lose me - though I would prefer a form....

<html><div></div></html>

> Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 13:33:29 -0500
wrote:
> > on things like this. But some people have serious issues with

> Oh no, they have uplifted sheep!!! How desperate are they for

For certain militaries, uplifting sheep might be an improvement.

-p.

Somehow I don't envision Brin using this in one of the next Uplift novels (if
he ever does one)!

====

"Oh no, they have uplifted sheep!!! How desperate are they for soldiers?"

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> ursive Loop wrote:
Think of the fun if he did, though... <eg> The question is, who would
uplift the sheep? Humans? Chimpanzees? /Dolphins?/ :-D

I kinda like the idea of it being the dolphins... and an evil part of me

wonders if they would insist on the standard 100,000 years of
servitude... <eg> Especially if someone showed them old /Monty Python/
tapes...

"3rd Battallion, 101st Ovine Paratroopers, Imperial Cetacean Marines,
reporting for duty, sah!"

Phil

I believe that sheep would be Uplifted by dogs. I've found on the Intraweb a
nice simulation of a possible future showing the
complexities of the sheep/dog relationship in this scenario:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeJuUZGI3Zw

Which is actually fine by me. Sheep have a deep philosophical tradition that
we should all learn to respect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTl7FeYEIDo

Though admittedly as far as the kebabs are concerned, better them than me.

Rob

> On 5/22/08, Phillip Atcliffe <atcliffe@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Somehow I don't envision Brin using this in one of the

> Think of the fun if he did, though... <eg> The question is, who would

> On May 21, 2008, at 3:21 AM, germ@germy.co.uk wrote:

You might be on to something here -- could you create a set of 15mm
Dark Fantasy Sheep so I can build a new HOTT army?

Which may beg for the Arch-lich Shepherd o' Doom and Damnation.

D.

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l, we have had the movie "Black Sheep" which proved that geneticly engineered
zombie outbreaks aren't just for people anymore.

-Eli

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Damo <damosan@gmail.com>

> On May 21, 2008, at 3:21 AM, germ@germy.co.uk wrote:

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re would Aardman be with that attitude? ;-)

Best, Ken

> Damo <damosan@gmail.com> wrote: