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Hey all,
Saw this and thought of y'all
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1932509.stm
could it work? anything here for us? or is it a case of move along, nothing to
see?
lets see what this hive mind can achieve?
Andy (hasnt even ordered any IXX yet!)
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, those ants. We have them in California. They have the neat trait of these is
that they all belong to the same "nest" (same phernomes). Other species will
attack other nest because of slight differences in the chemical signature.
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn
From: Andy Hemming
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:17 AM
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: [GZG] Ixx Psychology & behaviour?
Hey all,
Saw this and thought of y'all
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1932509.stm
could it work? anything here for us? or is it a case of move along, nothing to
see?
lets see what this hive mind can achieve?
Andy (hasnt even ordered any IXX yet!)
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aye - I thought having different strands of Ixx would be fun, almost Ixx
nationalities, which could then fight alongside or against existing forces...
From: mwsaber6@msn.comTo: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.eduDate: Wed, 3
Dec 2008 13:47:33 -0700Subject: Re: [GZG] Ixx Psychology & behaviour?
Ahh, those ants. We have them in California. They have the neat trait of these
is that they all belong to the same "nest" (same phernomes). Other species
will attack other nest because of slight differences in the chemical
signature.
Michael Brownmwsaber6@msn
From: Andy Hemming
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:17 AM
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: [GZG] Ixx Psychology & behaviour?
Hey all, Saw this and thought of y'all
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1932509.stm could it work? anything
here for us? or is it a case of move along, nothing to see? lets see
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> Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:33 AM, <emu2020@comcast.net> wrote:
> Different Ixx might have different superficial characteristics as well
And this is where martin connell will step in with his next painting
project. :-D
> I would just avoid anything that turns them into some sort of
Agreed, too many if you Ixx me, too.
Mk
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> y Hemming wrote:
Isn't that different /smells/ of Ixx? :-)
And the Ixx "nations" of varying affinity do sound rather like the
Phalons and Sa'Vasku -- never know which way they'll jump -- so perhaps
a different kind of psyhology is needed for the Ixx? Don't ask me what,
though. What's vaguely insectoid without resorting to the hackneyed
ultra-xenophobic mindset /a la/ Starfire's Arachnids and McCaffrey's
Hivers?
How about something along the lines of the Rame from SPI's /StarForce
/games -- rather slow-moving, but this is compensated by them being able
to form a meta-group from, say, 3 individuals, that acts in concert like
one large super-soldier. SPI justified this by the Rame having a
group-mind, but the Ixx could do something pheromonally; the point is
that they can't do anything as fast as, say, a human, but what they do,
they do very well. And it only works with them in close contact -- so
they'd need good defences, with or without exoskeletal armour, because a
"swarm" would become a prime target.
Just a thought... and it could allow Jon to add to the range with specific
Swarm figures.
Phil
> aye - I thought having different strands of Ixx would be fun, almost
Caveat: the following is NOT CANON in any way, just some thoughts I'd been
having that may or may not end up being used (I may still decide to go off in
another direction entirely...):
I'd mentioned some time earlier about the idea that the Ixx are possibly a
nomadic race, travelling around in HUUUUUGE generation
ships (OK, "Hiveships" for want of a better term) - these might have
FTL, or might just be travelling sublight and have just begun to
enter the fringes of the Human/Kra'Vak/Phalon spheres. The hiveships
would be very, very big, planetoid sized, with many millions of Ixx and fleets
of combat ships aboard each one. Now, maybe each hiveship
is a separate nest/nation/tribe/whatever, which will co-operate at
times for the good of the whole Ixx race, but at other times will squabble and
fight among themselves over resources, rivalries, power
and such.... ?
Jon (GZG)
> From: mwsaber6@msn.com
<mailto:gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu>gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.ed
u
> Subject: [GZG] Ixx Psychology & behaviour?
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,
Love it, though the chances of having multiple Ixx world ships in human space
seems unlikely, but who knows. Perhaps human space is on their primary
migration route.
-Eli
> Jon,
My thought was that the Ixx worldships (good term BTW) would be travelling in
a (very) loose group, probably several lightyears apart at some points but at
other times much closer (eg: two or more in the same system if there are
particularly juicy pickings to be had). This is why I'd thought about giving
them FTL capability, but perhaps
on a limited basis and quite different from human drives - perhaps
the worldships can jump just once every few weeks or even months, but when
they do so they can go a great distance; so if the call goes out (maybe by
couriers, or just PERHAPS they have FTL comms between the worldships...?) that
one has found a system worth stripping for resources, a few others might
converge there via FTL, take what they need and then split up again as they
move on.... endless
possibilities! ;-)
If anyone else wants to chip in with ideas, maybe this will grow......
Jon (GZG)
> -Eli
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like the idea as well. What I find unlikely is that there would ever be forces
from multiple worldships involved in the same battle, be it FT, SG, or DS.
Unless, of course, they are both after the same thing, in which case they
either are going to face off against each other, or will at least be
unsupportive of each other.
Still a good idea.
J
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:
> >Jon,
Germane only to the worldships idea, this reminds me of an idea I had to have
a fantasy setting where dwarves piloted gigantic icebergs. In the case of a
worldship, you'd have many of the same problems. Most notably heat, of course.
:)
On another front, when you start stacking population into a volume instead of
smearing them over a surface area, even with very generous volumes per
passenger you get to pretty ridiculous populations very quickly. Cube vs
square functions, after all.
Since these classifications are approximate already, it would be interesting
to see what attribtutes of crustaceans they might have (vs insect
characteristics). I *like* hive mind concepts, but it's kind of cliche. Most
insect races in SF are hive creatures, so a change would be welcome. It would
be ironic if their ecological niche (and therefore psychology) was more
similar to humans than more humanoid
races like the Kravak-- but convergent evolution certainly makes that
a possibility.
What kind of planet are they from? If it's an oxygen-rich, low-gravity
world, it might explain why invertebrates are so large and successful. Of
course, it could leave them weaker and more vulnerable compared to humans.
Aliens being uber in melee is another cliche (as the Brigadier says, "Just
once I'd like to meet an alien menace that is NOT immune to bullets"), and it
would be pleasing to see the Ixx perceive US as being the bulletproof
jugernauts for a change. All that chitinous armor may or may not be useful
against the predators of their own homeworld, but it might be worse than
useless against our weapons.
World-ships give you an opening to give the Ixx strength of numbers to
make up for their frailties, without having teeming hordes. Presumably
the ships have innumerable short-range support vessels. Lots of attack
craft and missiles, perhaps?
Consider also giving them some kind of weapon in SG/DS that ignores
armor (though I'm trying to imagine what practical weapon that would
be). Suddenly that non-PA force has the advantage for a change. Or
perhaps they focus on indirect fire weapons. Or both.
A race we *understand* doesn't mean we necessarily get along with them better,
but it's certainly an interesting change considering their drastically alien
appearance.
Anyway, just an idea.:)
> but at other times will squabble and fight among themselves over
And music!
How awesome would it be if they got in fights over different musical styles?
They could talk about the terrible Jazz-Folk War from their grandbugs'
generation...
-P.
Jon,
I like your concept for the nomadic society, but I am not too keen on the
predatory/parasitic nature/motivations of the Ixx. Perhaps the Ixx are
not at all interested in dooming the other species in the space where they
converge. Perhaps conflicts with other species in those regions are not over
the Ixx attempts to kill/dominate/wipe out the resident races, but
something
more grounded and fundamental such as simple resource-oriented
conflicts. Perhaps the Ixx way of life centers around a form of nomadic
pragmatism that follows a, "We share what we have and expect others to share
as we do" mentality that gets them in trouble with other species who do not
understand their intentions.
Also, your limited FTL works wells for the worldships. If you consider the
immense mass of these vessels, perhaps the energy needed to move such a
structure at FTL speeds is so great that it limits their abilities to do so.
FTL scouts and survey ships could move easier searching out resources that the
Ixx could use. Then, once located, the worldships converge and begin
harvesting the resources. These survey missions and the resulting convergiance
of the Ixx worldships might be the source of their conflicts with other
species as these movements could easily be looked on as invasive
and/or hostile.
-Eli
> > but at other times will squabble and fight among themselves over
"Don't play me none of that Jazz sh*t..... I f***in' hate Jazz.....Jazz ain't
nothin' but when you push a blues quartet down a long flight of stairs......"
(Rich Hall, as Otis Lee Crenshaw)
;-)
> Most insect races in SF are hive creatures, so a change would be
The whole idea that every arthropod alien species is an insect, and
usually a hive-dwelling *social* insect at that, is a huge cliché.
Ants In Spaaaace! It would a nice change to make them individual, like the
Thranx.
> What kind of planet are they from? If it's an oxygen-rich, low-
Or maybe, because they're an alien species and not *insects*, their evolution
solved the problem of gaseous exchange differently, with some sort of active
lung instead of passive diffusion through those pesky spiracles. Of course
there's noting to say that their breathing apparatus couldn't connect to the
outside air through vents in the thorax or abdomen instead of through a mouth
or nose. This might have
have interesting implications both technically (space-suit design for
example) and psychologically (fear of water more than waist deep, especially
if their average body density was such that they either
didn't float at all, or floated with their breathing-vents below the
surface)? I'm stealing ideas from Alan Dean Foster again here, of course.
> On another front, when you start stacking population into a volume
Yes, and they'd have a *huge* heat dissipation problem too. As regards
worldships, that *is* part of the Ants' (Nest) In Spaaaace! thing, but it's
still a cool idea. Viscerally, I think I'd favour
making the worldships non-FTL, while the smaller ("smaller" in this
context including super-dreadnoughts of course) ships are FTL in the
"conventional" way.
Could the arrival (or return) of the Ixx be responsible, whether wholly or in
part, for the recent behaviour of the KvaâVak? They want to get out of the
way of the oncoming worldships. This does up the tantalising but difficult
option of combined human and KraâVak action against the Ixx.
I really like where you're going with this. I love the conflict based on
a *massive* misunderstanding.
I'd like to add a minor wrinkle. The Ixx attitudes to humans are not unlike
those of the bugs in Alan Dean Foster's Humanx Comonwealth. They have deep
seated prejudices against humanoids, just like humans do against bugs. They
think we're squishy and gross beyond belief. However,
the Ixx manage to look past *their* prejudice to *share* with Humanity. But,
humanity does not have the same conception of sharing. This is the greatest
insult to them. They've decided to be the bigger species and humanity has
thrown it back in their face. That doesn't keep them from continuing to try to
share with us, but it is continually vexing and insulting to them.
-Mark
> Eli Arndt wrote:
Or a hybrid model, where the Ixx we initially meet are a hostile fringe
faction fleeing from the main species. In the midst of the Solar War, we might
ask questions rather than shooting first, but probably not many before we got
the idea. And once we'd formed an impression that the entire Ixx race was
hostile (rather than these being simply desperate exiles), it might be decades
before the Ixx realize why humans are so unthinkingly hostile and vice versa.
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Mark Kinsey <Kinseym@ptd.net> wrote:
They
> have deep seated prejudices against humanoids, just like humans do
However,
> the Ixx manage to look past *their* prejudice to *share* with
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reas I enjoy the idea of some form of insect-based race as I think that
offers some interesting potential for gaming based on different physiology and
psychology, I'm really not anxious to see these created as 'the boogey men' of
the GZGverse. That really just smacks of GW to me.
Is there any reason an intelligent, insectoid race can't be a member of the
GZGverse in just the same way the Kra'vak, Phalons, Savasku and P'taah (though
only by virtue of having a figure line) are? Do they need to be the cosmic
sledgehammer? That's so dreadfully cliched and boring IMO.
Ultimately, it might be interesting to see a new race, with some new ships for
FT, units for SG and DS, that is based on some form of insectoid
physiology and with unusual psychology that has play-impacting effect.
Yet at the same time, I hope they can be 'another example of diversity in the
larger universe' rather than 'the classic fearful bug alien race'. If we
want settings like that, we've got several sci-fi examples - I'd rather
not see the GZGverse go that way.
That's my 0.02.
For reference:
Kra'vak - predatory roots, hunting oriented mentality, can be driven to
fits of seemingly berserker rage (affects small ships and ground units),
interesting railgun technology
Savasku - not sure if there are any psychology or physiology aspects
that would affect ground combat, interesting mechanics for the space based
savasku fleets that differ from other races
Phalons - interesting gender relationships that play a role in ground
combat, plasma bolts
So if we added the Ixx:
Ixx - hive based psychology which should affect ground combat in some
respects, larger worldships probably not stoppable by any reasonable amount
of human fleet tonnage, smaller landers/scouts/escorts that are
engageable by human fleets (even a small planetoid shaped and based hiveship
wold be several orders of magnitude larger than the biggest FT SDN or CVA)
The hiveships can be slow moving and maybe the Ixx, although somewhat less
focused on single casualties are focused on racial survival and take large
casualty counts as a bad idea and a good sign to get out of the area, so human
defenses against Ixx scouting teams becomes 'hit them as hard as you can to
convince them your area is a bad place to come to' and versus motherships as
'we can't blow up the mothership, but if we kill enough escorts and landers,
they'll rationally elect to pack up and move on'.
This makes them a threat to weak outer rim colonies and even to inner colonies
if the defense is not strengthened by principal fleet elements, and it makes
ground combats fierce because if the locals show themselves as weak, the Ixx
will show up and move in to occupy and that's bad new. Versus
the Ixx, the guerilla campaign is a losing option - it has to be a hard,
violent initial defense - if they actually settle in, you're borked.
This is fairly different than if say, the Kra'Vak arrive. They probably wold
hate the attritional guerilla war of with them as the occupation forces
-
slowly bleeding from cowardly IEDs, assassinations, and ambushes. Eventually
they'd probably move on or nuke the place.
Anyway, I'm just suggesting that creating anything called a worldship or
hiveship means that, if it is ever represented in the game, it'll be worth I
suspect tens of thousands of CPV points in FT (I see a huge-ass resin
model
here that looks like a basketball with turrets and bays all over it -
think Tigress DN in Traveller or the like). No reasonable fleet could hold
against it. So to do this sanely, you need to make sure it is never a question
of
destroying a hiveship - always just a question of convincing them to
pack up and go away. The hiveship then becomes a big support artillery
platform, but your real targets are the escorts and landers. Them you can
kill. And most times, you'll encounter scouts and foraging parties and try to
stop those by whacking them before any worldship even comes your way. Ground
combats ensue from letting the scouts get through (or not detecting them until
they've landed).
And the Ixx psychology revolves simply around the hunt for resources and the
pragmatic, rational need for food and supplies and around racial survival in
this model. It isn't some evil desire to wipe out the humans. It is simply
finding the easiest place they can procure the best supplies with minimum
necessary conflict, but with the unemotional realization that some conflict
and casualties are inevitable. And acceptable. Large casualty counts threaten
the race or at least the hive viability and are not acceptable.
That makes for an interesting insectoid race, gives playable FT and DS and SG
scenarios, and doesn't create the ultimate bogeyman or some sort of boringly
homicidal alien. In this case, if the humans let them take the resources they
need, they'd leave them alone. Of course, the humans need some of those
resources and hence the conflict. Nothing to do with either side being
genocidal. The Ixx would view the humans as simply defending their resources
and would understand that. They'd probe for weak points where they could
secure the resources they need to survive. And they'd do the same in Kra'vak,
Phalon or Savasku space. So we get good potential for games in the GZGverse
that don't even involve any humans!
With respect and the hopes of a model that doesn't make the Ixx the 'monster
under the bed', Yours Truly Thomas B
> Whereas I enjoy the idea of some form of insect-based race as I
Lots of VERY good idea here, Tom, thanks for those. Don't worry, the Ixx
worldships were never meant (in my mind anyway) to be a "cosmic sledgehammer"
as you so effectively put it! The reason for making them nomadic in the first
place was simply so that they could show up on the scene "now" in the
timeline, having not been encountered before by Humans, K'V or Phalons (who
knows WHAT the S'V know or think, they're not telling...). They're not a new
"big nasty", just another race that adds to the fun of things in the few
hundred years (?) that their great fleet of worldships may take to cross the
GZG-verse region of space.
This is all developing quite nicely.... ;-)
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not all the alien races in the GZG universe "boogey men" from the human point
of view? Introducing new alien races as apocalyptic beings isn't a GW
original, didn't the Star Wars universe do the same thing or as noted any
number of other universes. When marketing a new line of figures to potential
buyers what sells better, "Here comes this months new line of models, the Ixx
a minor annoyance in the foot notes of the GZG universe or the Ixx a rapacious
horde of hideous monstrosities after your women?"
The Phalons are highly mercurial beings that will turn on you in a moment of
weakness or if you have anything they want.
The Kra'vak are on the equivalent of a religous crusade to wipe the human
infidels out.
The S'vasku are playing their own game, aiding different factions apparently
at random.
The humans are also jockying for position and would likely take the
opportunity to strip resources and colonies from each other if given half a
chance.
So it's currently pretty grim out there for the humans. But then it's supposed
to be because it's a wargaming universe.
Introducing a new race into the universe adds a new dimension.
If the Ixx, (most humans will call them the "Icks"Â I guess) are migrating
then they need a reason to have invested all the effort into doing so. This
might be comprehensible to humans (running away from the worse nasties like
Huns from Mongols, we stipped all our resources and now want yours, our gods
told us to go this way) or not. But can be a mystery for now.
Also to encounter all the different races in the GZG universe the migration
direction needs to be a 90 degrees to the plane of the GZG universe and there
need to be multiple world ships. Otherwise the Ixx show up on the far side of
KV space and the humans won't be impacted for years and would probably cheer
if the KV withdrew untis to deal with the new pests.
> On Dec 7, 2008, at 4:24 PM, John Tailby wrote:
> Are not all the alien races in the GZG universe "boogey men" from
Ya know? I'm loath to suggest it but it'd be kind of nice to have an alien
race that, you know, befriends the human race. Perhaps lending a hand against
the 'Vak?
Damo
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that would be the big cosmic joke...
The creatures that humans have the strongest "yuck" reaction to, is our friend
and helping us kill the other humanoid species.
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> Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Damo <damosan@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ya know? I'm loath to suggest it but it'd be kind of nice to have an
I was thinking the same thing.
In theory the Phalons would do this, but they are so opportunistic they'd
never be close friends with humans; humans would never trust them.
I thought of the Ixx in the middle of a nasty hive versus hive civil war that
destroyed their homeworld. They are now looking, on a hive by hive basis, for
anyone that would help. They then befriend humanity. Or, rather, they befriend
the first group of humans that they come across that they think they can
trust.
Say the first group encounter the NSL. The NSL now have a powerful ally. Then
another hive ship shows up and runs into NAC territory. Now you have Ixx and
NAC versus Ixx and NSL. You can do a credible Ixx versus Ixx combat. The
reason the hive ships are all now starting to show up all at once is because
their home planet was wrecked in a cataclysm and the hives all left at about
the same time.
Maybe even some of them befriend the alien races, too (but maybe not, oh, the
Phalons, because they look too much like a predator on their now extinct home
planet, or soemthing like that...).
The Ixx are no longer stereotypical "bugs" but actually they're close allies,
allies who hate certain members of their own kind.
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y could be like the Vrusk in Star Frontiers. They are the ultimate in "cootie"
reaction factor but they love us?
-------------- Original message --------------
From: John Tailby <john_tailby@xtra.co.nz>
Yes that would be the big cosmic joke...
The creatures that humans have the strongest "yuck" reaction to, is our friend
and helping us kill the other humanoid species.
From: Damo <damosan@gmail.com>
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Sent: Monday, 8 December, 2008 11:35:55 AM
Subject: Re: [GZG] Ixx Psychology & behaviour?
> On Dec 7, 2008, at 4:24 PM, John Tailby wrote:
> Are not all the alien races in the GZG universe "boogey men" from
Ya know? I'm loath to suggest it but it'd be kind of nice to have an alien
race that, you know, befriends the human race. Perhaps lending a hand against
the 'Vak?
Damo
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> At 21.00 07/12/2008, you wrote:
Yet
> at the same time, I hope they can be 'another example of diversity in
Just my opinion, but I like very much your work on the Ixx and a rational push
for their behaviour. A question arise, though: what happens if a
hive-planetoid enters a main system?
Maybe they steer clear of too well defended areas (as you said) so that mean
they will never reach the "core" systems, finding better (or at least less
defended) pastures somewhere else? Or they casually simply pass through other
areas? It could be reasonable, then, to leave them interesting targets
somewhere, so they'll never find themselves in a logistical crisis that could
push them into moving onto a main system... that could mean strategical moves
to push them towards some planets... maybe enemy planets? Or we could have a
race of mercenaries? "Listen, if you refrain to attack here, I'll let you pass
through to go there, a wonderful place chock full of whatever you like... I
could even send 3 dreadnoughts of mine to lend a hand..." and,
voilà , a mixed NSL-Ixx task force show up on the
edge of a NAC system (casually, the system would be potentially harmful to the
NSL on top of being interesting for the aliens)... obviously, next time it
could be the reverse, with NAC helping the Ixx against somebody else).
Bye
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s anyone remember the Baufrin from the Renegade Legion universe?
Spider-centaur types, who sometimes changed personalities when they
molted. They were also incredibly friendly to humans, and if I remember right
they were herbivores and relatively pacifistic. Also not a hive, but they had
a
collective sort of community that was closely-knit. They seemed to be a
different take on the standard evil bug alien types.
James
> On 12/7/08, emu2020@comcast.net <emu2020@comcast.net> wrote:
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nds potentially useful in a roleplaying game but less so in a wargame that's
about selling models for cool games.
________________________________
From: James Moore <jmooreou@gmail.com>
To: gzg-l@vermouth...csua.berkeley.edu
Sent: Monday, 8 December, 2008 3:24:30 PM
Subject: Re: [GZG] Ixx Psychology & behaviour?
Does anyone remember the Baufrin from the Renegade Legion universe?
Spider-centaur types, who sometimes changed personalities when they
molted. They were also incredibly friendly to humans, and if I remember right
they were herbivores and relatively pacifistic. Also not a hive,
but they had a collective sort of community that was closely-knit. They
seemed to be a different take on the standard evil bug alien types.
                                  James
Â
> On 12/7/08, emu2020@comcast.net <emu2020@comcast.net> wrote:
Interesting bits here. I am wondering what Jon's final version of the
"official" background will be. We've given him a lot to work with.
-Eli
[quoted original message omitted]
Allan Goodall said
> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Damo <damosan@gmail.com> wrote:
> left
Maybe, tying in an earlier idea about Ixxian communication, it's about
pheromones/smell. Certain groups of humans "smell" like friends, others
smell like predators/enemy hives. The initial reaction could be as
simple as what is predominant in the contact group's diet, or what compounds
are in the service issue soap or deoderant. Once a human group is tagged as
'friend' the Ixxian scouts mark the personnel and their equipment from their
own scent glands to inform other hive members that this group is "ours". A
human/Ixxian liason team will find it's Ixxian members examining or
touching all humans they encounter and marking them.
This might explain why the NSL Ixxians might attack NAC troops as they'll
detect the NAC Ixxian marker and the NSL Ixxian Hive and the NAC Ixxian Hive
are in conflict.
I like the idea of Slower than Light (but still moving at a fair percentage of
C) Hive worlds. If they started from a common start point (say one of the
Magellanic galaxies), they'll be passing through the plane of our galaxy
eliptic in a random scatter pattern across 'known space'. The scout forces
(which we're now meeting) may come in on bussard ramscoops (like Niven's
Pak). The chiton-like body covering of the Ixxian allows them to resist
radiation better than other races (good when using ramscoops), but they
still have an internal skeleton of bone/cartilage - the extra limbs help
move the extra weight around.
Perhaps one of the first things the Ixxians do when contacting humans is
acquire FTL tech and start producing their own ships on the Hive worlds (or
any real estate they take in known space) - some of the scout ramscoops
may carry seeder pods which allow Ixxian hives to colonise planets along the
route of the Hiveworlds so that when the Hiveworld arrives, resources and
processed raw materials are already in transit for impact/near orbit
rendeavous as the Hiveworld passes through. The Ixxians then become a little
like Army Ants with the scouts locating resource sites along the line of
march and dropping off "colonies", the colonies strip mine planets, harvest
asteroid and Kuiper Belts and build thousands of ramscoops to ferry the raw
and partially processed resources, plus (perhaps) some elements of the colony
back to the predetermined vector of the Hiveworld where they're picked up. The
Ixxian colony then dies off as the Hiveworld moves out of
range - this indicates that most Ixxians met by humans are sterile
'worker'
types, perhaps long-lived in human terms, but ultimately expendable for
the good of the Hive. The elements of the colony that return to the Hiveworld
might be some sort of 'scribe' class that carry back the (scent?) records and
experiences of the colony for intergration into the collective HiveMind.
Scribes become valuable, a source of conflict between Hive colonies,
bargaining chips if humans recover one.
Sorry, making this up as I type, hope it sparks some more ideas.
> Maybe even some of them befriend the alien races, too (but maybe not,
They smell funny!
> The Ixx are no longer stereotypical "bugs" but actually they're close
Almost like people, really:)
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> On Sun, 7 Dec 2008, Allan Goodall wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Damo <damosan@gmail.com> wrote:
I was thinking that the loyality of the Ixx, maybe on a hiveship by ship
basis, is determined by the quality of resources the other race gives the Ixx
access to. The quality of resources could also determine the quality of Ixx
ground troups and ships.
You can have this 20% of the asteroid belt but we can't help you mine it. vs
here's 100 million tons of various stuff. Go away. There's a nice juicy system
over there. (Yeah, that system belongs to our enemy but we're not telling you
that.)
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s not meant to be snarky.
In a roleplaying game it's very useful to have loads of alien species that
will ally with you and provide different NPCs to interact with. In a wargame
you want loads of different enemies that create interesting wargames.
Who wants to by an army load of Ixx if their special rule is "peace
breaks out" and on a 4+ the game ends because the diplomats make peace.
As I said makes for a great role playing game but not such a good wargame.
Most of the back stories I have read have not been completely pointless.
Nomadic world ships that are impinging accross the GZG universe isn't
pointless, nor were the discussion about potential motives.
The closest thing to snarky I saw in the thread was someone saying "Don't make
the Ixx too apocalyptic because that would be too like
GW".Â
> Yes that would be the big cosmic joke...
Which, or course, is pretty much what Alan Dean Foster did with the Thranx!
The "bugs" are really nice and friendly to us, but a lot of
humans still react in an "eeeewwwww, bugs!!!" way to them.... ;-)
Jon (GZG)
> From: Damo <damosan@gmail.com>
http://vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu:1337/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gzg-l
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take up Mr.Tailby's point:
When I object to the Ixx as a demonic xenocidal race, I'm not talking about
how they are marketed by other races or even how they are initially
percieved or mis-percieved. I'm talking about how they really are and
will end up in the long run. The killer bug is a boring stereotype. What's
more, it robs a lot of more interesting long term play options.
As far as mechanics: You practically can't have a 'worldship' or anything near
to it in FT or no reasonable fleet could fly against it. So that isn't a
gameable scenario unless Jon has in mind some new GZG game invovling
dueling bowling-ball sized death globes....
So you need to insert the alien in such a way that it can be a player in the
game universe and justify the selling of an FT fleet, some new 15mm and 6mm
minis, and that can be played in FT, SG, DS and FMAS. It helps to make them
rational and perhaps less emotional about individual casualties both because
of the breadth of scenarios it opens up and because you'd like them to play
a little differently in-game. At the same time, you don't want to turn
them into an inexorable tide. To some extent, the KV have already stolen that
niche. So, you want something that makes them interesting, opens up all sorts
of gaming potential, and so on.
I have no problem with the Ixx as being monolithic by hive but not across
the species. That could make perfect sense. But they're spacefaring - I
don't want to see their behaviours entirely reflective of dirt-crawling
bugs. It is likely that they'd have had to overcome various problems and
limitations of being insectoid long since, much like humanity had to overcome
some of their ape ancestry's shortcomings. To get to space in numbers, you
need flexibility and an ability to overcome challenges in some way that is
more than one dimensional.
If you make the Ixx equally threatening to the KV, SV, etc. then you don't
need to make them all chum-chum with the humans. They become allies of a
sort by the old 'enemy of my enemy' sort of logic or perhaps 'serious pest of
my enemy'. Alternately, if the Ixx incursion becomes serious enough, it offers
chances for other aliens to become more closely allied with humanity
just to help cope with the threat of the Ixx. But the non-monolithic
nature of the Ixx could mean in the long run, some pass through, some stick
around, some ally with different factions, some fight like rabid xenocidal
bugs.
The underlying factors any design has to shoot for
- allows productions of all sorts of new minis for sale
- is not one dimensional nor a single trick pony
- is well enough thought out to allow a wide variety of in game
uses/scenarios
- allows play in all the GZG game systems
TomB
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> I will admit that making them pacifistic may seem to be contrary to
This is kind of what I was aiming for by suggesting a different class
of habitable planet for them, and human-friendly behaviors. For a race
to look utterly unhuman, and yet be far more socially comprehensible to humans
than the humanoid Kravak or Phalons, would be pretty cool.
Note that "human-like" does NOT necessarily mean peaceful.
To agree with Tom B: these figures are primarily for wargaming, so it's
critical that we have a race that:
* Are worth playing in SG, DS *and* FT -- facilitating crossovers and
campaigns.
* Fit a unique role in the Tuffleyverse -- otherwise they feel too
generic.
* Have good reason to be conceivably fighting any race/faction -- so
any two players at a convention/game store/basement can bring their
armies/fleets and have a fun and fluff-friendly game.
* can be balanced with the existing armies
* Fit the economics of production -- not too few miniatures per force
that Jon can't make a tidy profit on them, and not too many that they're
priced out of the market.
Nevertheless, I think that the RPG-friendly elements shouldn't be
ignored if at all possible, if only because I came into this hobby from the
RPG side. It adds considerable flavor to the game, lends verisimilitude to the
background and opens up room for ideas that
could become game-relevant. Not to mention it encourages great GZG
fiction.
> Really, the Ixx can be anything a player wants them to be, so really,
While this is true in general, I think that the choice of miniatures released
and the rules behind them depends on the fluff. That makes
this a useful exercise. If the Ixx turn out to be a hive-mind insect
race, you get one set of rules and figures, and if they are alien in
physiology but surprisingly human-like at heart, then you get another.
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think that the development and sale of these figs relies far less on the fluff
than the credit that is being given. Before we even had fluff, people were
hyped over these figs. In addition, minor nations who have never been given
anything even resembling fluff from GZG have sold lines of figures (ScanFed,
CalTex, IC, etc.).
That being said, you will recall I was in favor of fluff for fluff's sake.
There is no reason not to have cool fluff and I would love to see something a
little more original than slobbering killer bugs,
hive-minded suicide warriors, or the unapproachable space cockroach.
I guess, in a way, I was trying to say that the Ixx are ultimately going to
develop along lines that make sense for production, not fluff. They are
awesome figs and have obviously jazzed a lot of folks. They will do fine no
matter what fluff is assigned to them because you can always make up your own.
For example, my friend hates the rules for the SV and hates the Phalon ships
so he uses Phalon ship rules with SV ships. I think the fluff would be more
important if we were actually seeing official rules for GZG stuff.
-Eli
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y, I know we're all having good fun with speculations on the Ixx, but
I've got some semi-real world based thoughts to set some parameters
about.
If the Ixx have these huge hive ships, how large are we speculating them to
be? Size of one of our largest asteroids (~500 miles), size of the Moon, size
of a dwarf planet, size of a terrestrial planet, or...? Given a size, it is
going to put out heat from the energies generated within. While some of that
can be PSB'd into being being fed into the drives that propel this
hive/world ship through space (FTL or sublight), there's still going to
be detectable heat generated (unless you want to PSB some sort of mascing or
shielding, but nothing is perfect in every spectrum; it'll be detectable
somehow)
Earth, present day. Technology marches on. 18 years ago we made our first
actual detection of an extrasolar planet around a main sequence star. In the
past 18 years we have now detected over 300 of these things, and recent
evidence suggests that we have hit the cusp of actually *imaging* planets
around other stars (see also the recent Hubble images of a planet around
Fomalhaut: http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2008/39/).
All this in 18 years. Pretty damned impressive, if you ask me.
So, given that we'd probably run into the Ixx in the FTVerse after the 2190s
(probably after 2194, Siege of Sol), the technologies that astronomy science
will have developed by this point, accelerated by the need to detect
enemy/alien (i.e., K'V) *fleets* at some incredible distances, would
mean that there will be some subset of astronomers who are maintaining sky
surveys, very likely cooperative sky surveys between different solar systems
(really nailing down parallax and distances to things, though these
measurements would take months or more, not done overnight). This would then
lend credence to the fact that we would be able to detect these
hive/world
ships at some level. These may never enter a main human system, but we should
be able to track them at the very least. And being able to track them....well,
I'll let you take it from here.
Mk
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:27 PM, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:
> >aye - I thought having different strands of Ixx would be fun, almost
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Indy <indy.kochte@gmail.com> wrote:
Someday, if I'm really good, will Grandfather Winter bring me a ship that's
powered by its own entropy?
I think you raise a really good point. Given sublight speeds and that kind of
size, why haven't we detected them already (or more to the
point why didn't the pre-contact human factions discover them)?
I think this is good evidence that they do have some form of FTL drive.
Also, going back to what I was saying earlier, even if you assume all
kinds of other things can be handwaved away (like heat dissipation--
the comparison to a giant inhabited iceberg as a vessel isn't an idle
comparison), you don't actually need a very large asteroid before you're
holding gargantuan numbers of people. A hiveship can be huge and unweildy
compared to spaceships, but tiny compared to an asteroid.
Math break: Let's take earth's 510 million km^2 of surface area. Let's assume
that our 7 billion humans need all of it: deserts, ice caps, deep oceans, etc.
Let's assume that we take a volume of 2km, one up into the sky and one down
into the earth. Let's assume that any efficiencies that we get out of
technology we need to cover for overhead, engines, gravity etc. Now instead of
spreading it over the surface of a sphere, let's compact this volume into a
spherical asteroid. R=624km. So even with this very conservative
approximation, we have 7 billion people in something the size of a small dwarf
planet. Look how far down you go on the list to get there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Solar_System_objects_by_radius
So basically yeah this is literally a world-ship. Even with very
conservative assumptions you end up holding millions or billions within very
small bodies. And I'll bet the Ixx can pack them closer together than 7 per
km^3.
Some PSB already in the tuffleyverse is that the further out you are from a
gravity well, the farther and more accurately you can jump. Well, what if
their hive ships (let's call them world ships; I really like the idea of
departing from the cliches) generate enough gravity that they have to be
further out of a system to begin with and have to
make small jumps (this need not contradict the last paragraph-- after
all, even a small world-ship will have much more spatial distortion
around it than a (to them tiny) human, kravak, etc ship. So while they are
FTL, it's FTL on an order of months or years rather than weeks
between worlds. And, they likely can't generate much delta-v, so the
world ships were probably accelerated to a medium-high velocity long
ago, and they maneuver using FTL and clever use of gravity wells.