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dy all,
So, I was watching the newest incarnation of the Gundam anime series "Gundame
00" and it seems the franchise has very much returned to its roots of being
strongly rooted in political and social commentary, but with an update that
fits world views and problems today. What does this
have to do with the GZG-verse?
One of the things they have in this series in a new independent nation who's
national export is mercenaries in the form of what they call PMCs or Private
Military Companies. These PMCs are regulated and governed by a trust called,
simply enough, the PMC Trust. I found this to be an
intriguing take on mercenaries in a sci-fi setting and could see a
similar model working in the GZG universe, but instead of a nation on earth,
they might have their own colony world.
I know that in the GZG universe Africa almost fills this role, being a serious
source for mercenaries and private armed forces. Maybe Africa could be the
site of such a trust, supported secretly by all nations as having a ready
supply of mercenaries is always handy for governments not wanting to or unable
to extend their own hands to do the dirty work.
Thoughts,
-Eli
The idea of regulated mercenary units and organization very similar to your
PMC Trust is exhibited also in David Drake's "Hammer's Slammers" stories. And,
yes, Africa nicely fills the niche, as would corporate
armies of Nippon. I would think that regulation - including bonds
expatriation agreements, etc - would be handled by the UNSC.
Faster than a speeding slug! I'm Paraplegic Racehorse.
http://crippledhorse.blogspot.com/
http://GlacierTaxicab.com/
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:59 AM, <emu2020@comcast.net> wrote:
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the USNC still just peacekeepers or have they adopted a more active role? It's
hard to imagine todays UN touching the issue of mercenaries. My thought was
that a PMC Trust would have a board of directors, councel, etc. which was made
up of various representetives of charter member nations. Think of it as a more
militant UN organization that is tasked with making sure that mercenary
actions do not get out of hand.
-Eli
> On Dec 10, 2008, at 3:51 PM, emu2020@comcast.net wrote:
> Is the USNC still just peacekeepers or have they adopted a more
The UN has a group for everything don't they -- they certainly have
one covering mercenaries today. I could see the USNC bowing to the inevitable
and forming groups to track (and perhaps contract work to)
PMCs in the far-flung GZG universe.
I see them taking the stance of "If we can't stop 'em we may as well try to
work with them."
Damo
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l idea.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Damo <damosan@gmail.com>
> On Dec 10, 2008, at 3:51 PM, emu2020@comcast.net wrote:
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k Shelley wrote a series of books about the Dirigent Mercenary Company (DMC).
Dirigent's main export is mercenaries and the colony world is run by a council
of senior unit commanders.
Similarly, the older Joel Rosenberg book Not For Glory deals with a mercenary
organization of Jewish or Israeli (pretty much my prototype for the NI)
origins. They have a poor world and export mercenaries to help purchase
critical supplies for their people.
Falkenberg's Legion and The Mercenary by Jerry Pournelle (Hi Phil!) are also
seminal novels in this sort of genre.
http://www.stargrunt.ca/settings_hist/gzg_timeline/gzg_timeline.htm
I also draw your attention to the above link and mentions of mercenaries in
the canon timeline:
------------
*2128* LLAR mercenary forces (the San Deseado Interface Brigade), hired by the
Indonesian Commonwealth to protect their installations on the disputed
Caroline Islands, clash with New Anglian forces against the will of their
employers. In a desperate attempt to conciliate with the Anglians, who are
threatening retribution, the Indonesians execute the entire LLAR Brigade.
Understandably furious at this, the LLAR strikes at the Indonesian settlement
on Easter, marking the start of what becomes known as the "Mercenary War" (as
both sides employ large numbers of mercenary and foreign volunteer contingents
to complement their own limited forces). The next four years see a very
scrappy and inconclusive war fought out, the only real winners being the bank
balances of the various mercenary units.
*2129* Dutch mercenaries of the Van Koost Armoured Legion, working for the
Indonesians, recapture the Commonwealth's settlement of Easter, defeating LLAR
regular forces and a Turkish mercenary unit in the process. A Swiss strike
force employed by the LLAR in turn raids a major Indonesian logistics centre
in Manila on Earth, but is repelled by the local forces and Japanese mercenary
troops; the Swiss make use of nerve agents to cover their withdrawal, causing
heavy casualties to the Japanese and bringing severe protests in the UN
assembly.
*2130* Shi'ite fundamentalists declare independence from the Islamic
Federation on their Outworld settlements of Abu Haman and Sad Al Bari. Saudi
attempts to regain control of these colonies fail as troops of the 2nd Islamic
Legion sent to suppress the rebellion switch sides after landfall and join the
fundamentalists under the banner of Mullah Saeed ibn Aamir. The two colonies
declare the formation of the Saeed Khalifate and, in an effort to raise much
needed hard currency soon begin to utilise their armed forces as mercenary
units for hire. Over the next few years, the Khalifate's mercenaries are to
earn themselves the reputation of being among the toughest units in Human
space. *2131* Israeli and Islamic mercenaries clash with each on Easter
despite both having been hired by the Indonesians; both forces' contracts are
promptly revoked, and several Commonwealth Defence Ministry staff responsible
for the hirings are severely punished for their lack of foresight.
*2132* The Mercenary War is finally brought to an end with the signing of
the Mercenary Charter on the Dutch-settled world of Freisland. The
Charter,
as well as finalising the LLAR/Commonwealth dispute with heavy
reparations being paid by the Indonesians over the San Deseado Brigade
incident, lays out a code to which all mercenary units and their employers are
expected to adhere. All signatories to the Charter, which include most nations
and blocs that either supply or employ foreign mercenary troops, agree not to
hire any unit that does not comply with the terms of the code.
*2142* The Accord of Freisland brings the First Solar War to an end, with the
Anglians hailing it as a major victory while the ESU licks its wounds
and considers its next move. Human space enjoys an all-too-brief period
of relative peace. *2165* The Third Solar War is heralded by a massive
operation by the NAC to regain the worlds left under Eurasian control
following the Treaty of Khorramshahr. Early successes falter as the FSE once
again allies with the ESU, providing men and material as well as funding to
hire mercenary contingents from the LLAR and the Indonesian Commonwealth.
*2166* The Third Solar War escalates further as the NSL attacks the bordering
FSE frontier. Mercenary forces from New Israel are hired by the NAC. The
Romanov Hegemony attacks the ESU and refuses safe passage for Indonesian or
LLAR mercenary units through its space.
*2170* Scandinavian mercenaries employed by the NAC overrun Compville and
install the separatists in government; Compville joins the New French
Republic, which is still denied any kind of diplomatic recognition by the UN
due to FSE pressure.
*2177* A sudden ESU fleet attack on the Anglian Nagisa system signals the
start of the next "hot phase" of the Third Solar War; the Nagisa colony falls
quickly, following a warning orbital bombardment from ESU warships. Meanwhile,
NSL regulars and Swiss mercenary units strike at FSE settlements on the inner
colony of Flensberg.
*2181* On Kayleigh, NSL and NAC armoured forces are defeated by LLAR mercenary
units; General Heinrich Vortsheimer, leading the Allied troops, is relieved of
his command following this ignominious reverse.
*2182*The ESU lands Khalifate mercenaries on Tsitsihar to reinforce their
offensive against Romanov units in the colony.
*2183* Indonesian mercenary units working for the ESU capture NSL possessions
on Salzburg. With the aid of the Khalifate troops the ESU finally takes
Tsitsihar from the Romanovs.
-----------
Note the end to the Mercenary War. Note the importance of Friesland (might as
well have been called Drake!). Note the Mercenary Charter.
Now, there will have to be someone who enforces the Charter. Is that a
multi-national body? In times of Solar Wars, probably that would not
fly. So it does augur for a Bonding Authority (a term I borrow from the
Traveller RPG) who insure mercenary units are reliable in service delivery (or
they don't get any 'bonding' and no one reputable will hire them). This
authority would also ensure they kept to the terms of the charter, for the
sake of its own integrity. Units violating the Charter would be struck from
the Bonding Authority's lists. The Bonding Authority might be considered a
Trust. That Bonding Authority is likely to be more like a giant insurance
company/banker
with a dash of investigator/enforcer thrown in. It might be a
UN-sanctioned
or even run agency (or not). I can see the UN exerting influence on it to keep
Mercenaries from being allowed to operate in the Core or on the Homeworld.
Friesland seems the logical home for it, since it is the place the charter is
signed and later that is a neutral ground where the Accord of Friesland
(unrelated) can be signed.
In my GZGverse, it is the Mercenary Bonding Authority (MBA) that enforces the
Mercenary Charter. I see mercenaries as being based everywhere from small
colony worlds (outer) of the various factions to independent rim colony worlds
unaligned with any faction. Some (that are in favour with governments) may be
based in the Inner Colonies or even in the Core,
although probably very few and those very reputable, top-end, and
executing operations mostly outside of the Core (PMCs may handle VIP
protection and so on within the Core or on Earth).
TomB
> At 4:11 PM -0500 12/10/08, Damo wrote:
Doesn't the UN Technically already do this? After all, they get money from
member nations to fund the troops. Member nations provide troops for
peacekeeping duty and get funding for this. IF that's not mercenary by proxy,
I don't know what is.
Toss in some good old Quid Pro Quo corruption and I can see the Secretary
General and some Key countries sending "UN forces" to a mission for a third
party.
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sn't the UN Technically already do this? After all, they get money from member
nations to fund the troops. Member nations provide troops for peacekeeping
duty and get funding for this. IF that's not mercenary by proxy, I don't know
what is.
Toss in some good old Quid Pro Quo corruption and I can see the Secretary
General and some Key countries sending "UN forces" to a mission for a third
party.
Apparently serving as UN peace keepers brings in significant hard currency for
the Fijian government, until the latest coup anyway.
In the GZG universe, where does the UN get it's funding from taxing the powers
like NAC and ESU or does it also run all the central commerce like the world
bank and take a cut out of that?
Even if you had a well funded UN where does it get it's people from? They have
to be hired in from one or more factions to operate the facilities and crew
the starships. Does this mean than a UN ship has a multi racial crew a bit
like Kirks enterprise?
I can imagine engineering posts where you get to look at those cool engines
and weapons would be highly sought after for the intellectual property you
would bring back to your nation after your UN service is over.
For ground units it might just be easier for the UN to hire entire units as a
going concern. Perhaps larger government factions might volunteer their units
for UN missions that align with their own interests or even act in
anticipation of a retroactive UN approval.
Interesting discussion so far.
Today's UN doesn't have a military either. And when they DO conduct military
operations, it is more likely to be with Third World uniformed thugs working
for cash and running child prostitution rings on the side than it is to be
anything professional. Oh, and even if you do convince First World militaries
to contribute, they put some politically correct jackass in charge so the
"peacekeepers" are stuck basically videotaping the murders and rapes rather
than doing anything productive.
Suffice it to say that the UNSC in the GZGverse is more or less utterly unlike
today's UN.
John
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:51 PM, <emu2020@comcast.net> wrote:
which
> was made up of various representetives of charter member nations.
Think of
> it as a more militant UN organization that is tasked with making sure
Well, thank you for contributing, but this really is the sort of flamey reply
I was hoping to avoid. There are a thousand and one ways to say exactly what
you just said without the obvious bias and distasteful wording. I respect your
view and opinion, just don't shove it down my throat in the place where I go
to have fun all the while heaping a big helping of stink on top of it.
-Eli
[quoted original message omitted]
> At 6:29 PM -0800 12/10/08, Eli Arndt wrote:
Well, it's modern day reality. You do realize that war involve messy politics
and conflict right? Wargamers should at least nod towards that reality.
Talk to folks who've been on peace keeping missions. It's not milk and honey
and the UN has a LOT of corruption that is brought to the table. And the
stilted ROE, that's a factor that they've had to deal with. I've had some long
and drawn out conversations with a Canadian Friend who got
to work in the Israel/Palestine/West Bank/Golan
area. Complex, messy and distasteful doesn't begin to describe such things.
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> B wrote:
And let's not forget a classic series of books in which organised interstellar
mercenaries are not only fundamental to the human societies
it describes, but form the basis for several planets' economies -- the
Dorsai books by Gordon R Dickson. Dunno if this universe makes a good basis
for the kind of merc regulation that the list has been discussing,
because /everyone/ in the Dorsai series seems to be subject to the same
kind of economic rules coutesy of their "contracts" and it doesn't matter what
you do for a living.
Phil
Do not mistake my desire for polite discussion for a denial of the realities
of such endeavors. I wasn't saying we shouldn't talk about such things, just
that the way in which they were phrased was distasteful and abrasive.
Personally, It pretty much killed the topic for me, to be honest. Really, I
play games to have fun. Even the wargames.
-Eli
Eli,
I don't want this discussion to fall into a back and forth about a reply
but I think you need to consider Johns post for what it was - an actual
representation based on someone who has been on the ground and seen it.
At no point did he say anything negative about your, your post or anything
else, he just added (in his own way) a very accurate depiction of the current
UN.
Either setup an ignore filter for John or send his posts through the
De-Atkinson if you want polite discourse. If you want to hear it from
the soldiers you will get it like that and more. (Or you will hear it from the
politically correct jackasses and it will sound all nice and fluffy and make
everyone happy).
All the best,
Bob Makowsky 82 Airborne
----- Original Message ----
From: Eli Arndt <emu2020@comcast.net>
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 3:31:05 AM
Subject: Re: [GZG] Interesting mercenary idea
Do not mistake my desire for polite discussion for a denial of the realities
of such endeavors. I wasn't saying we shouldn't talk about such things, just
that the way in which they were phrased was distasteful and abrasive.
Personally, It pretty much killed the topic for me, to be honest. Really, I
play games to have fun. Even the wargames.
-Eli
> On Dec 10, 2008, at 6:46 PM, John Tailby wrote:
> Even if you had a well funded UN where does it get it's people from?
Perhaps the future UN is a quasi-nation representing the "peoples of
the Earth" and as such have recruitment posters world wide.
"Join the UN and explore the galaxy!"
Damo
> On Dec 10, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Eli Arndt wrote:
> Well, thank you for contributing, but this really is the sort of
Reality hurts man. Having said that it's something to keep in mind
when projecting humanity 200+ years into the future.
Damo
> Well, it's modern day reality.
Cloaking flames and prejudicial beliefs in the name of 'reality' doesn't
cut it, either, really. Flames are flames. Not every peacekeeper is corrupt,
and saying that is only going to start long, pointless arguments.
-P.
> Perhaps the future UN is a quasi-nation representing the "peoples of
And we can call it ComStar.... wait wrong setting:)
Sorry to hear that; even I found it an interesting germ, and others were
jumping in literary refs. I'll admit, Dorsai came to mind immediately, but
shoved aside because of the similarities to Dune's Saudaukar, i.e., soldier's
planet, though that was more a death world, which I don't think Dorsai's was.
As for John's comments, I'd have to say that was one of his more measured and
least abusive I've seen, and do thank him for that.
Thanks, John!
While not directly useful for your idea's development, I think he was
replying to someone else's comments, side thread/discussions a common
part of this kind of open discussion, and you should do what I've done so
often, just ignore the parts I don't find readily usable.
The_Beast
PS Hacking-and-slashing of shaver handles proceeds apace, but nothing
coming together as I'd hope. Even if nothing comes of this, it's been fun
wielding the razor saw...
Eli Arndt wrote on 12/11/2008 02:31:05 AM:
> Do not mistake my desire for polite discussion for a denial of the
Really, I
> play games to have fun. Even the wargames.
> At 12:31 AM -0800 12/11/08, Eli Arndt wrote:
Look at it from John's perspective. He's a professional soldier with
standards, morales and honor. Compare that to a force that's deployed for
peacekeeping, but uses conscripts that are just this side of penal troops for
the peacekeeping and their number of 'incidents' with the locals where the
Peacekeeping troops started the problem is high.
IF you were in that position as a professional soldier, what would your
opinion of such 'peace keepers' be?
> At 7:57 AM -0500 12/11/08, paul@otd.com wrote:
doesn't
> cut it, either, really.
It wasn't a flame. AND it's not prejudice. It's reality. Is it prejudiced to
expect a gangster to commit crimes and extort money?
> Flames are flames. Not every peacekeeper is
He didn't say that. He was applying it to the third world nations that send
forces out as peacekeepers and whom are quite lacking in professionalism. I've
got Canadian friends who've deployed for peacekeeping. They serve with honor
but still often have some pretty fucked up ROE. (that's really the best
description).
You should look at the sex trade in the Balkans under SFOR and KFOR. It's HUGE
now. The main customers have been UN troops. Some of that is PART Of the
reason why US troops have a NO SEX in theatre rule. Not with anyone.
Google "UN Troops Sex Trade"
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:52 AM, Damo <damosan@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps the future UN is a quasi-nation representing the "peoples of
Probably. Something like a transational not-for-profit corporation.
Money could come in from "member dues" that nations pay out of lip service and
the fact that the UN provides some immensely beneficial services, such as the
WHO (which would become the Interplanetary Health Organization and respond to
the new and interesting diseases that explorers find). It could also run
exploratory missions and scientific missions whose results would be, not
exactly for sale, but "sponsored by".
The Solar Wars, from the descriptions we have in the timelines, do not seem to
be massive total wars of mutual destruction as WWI or WWII.[1] In these
limited conflicts, an avenue of communications would benefit both sides. The
UN's original intended function, as a forum for nations to resolve grievances,
would still remain. The reduction of the number of sovereign states might make
the GA less of a useless debate club, or even permit a consolidation of that
body with the Security Council.
John
[1] Based on: Limited force sizes (division or smaller, generally),
location of battles (minor colony worlds) and the restraint shown in the inner
colonies and the Solar System, as well as the apparent prohibition of nukes in
an atmosphere.
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:57 AM, <paul@otd.com> wrote:
doesn't
> cut it, either, really. Flames are flames. Not every peacekeeper is
Didn't say every peacekeeper was corrupt. Read for comprehension, not with
your emotions.
Said the ones who weren't corrupt and criminal were still hobbled by stupid
ROEs. Srebrenica, anyone?
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also found no rudeness, nor offensiveness in John's response. He was giving
some additional insight as to how reality is often far, far away from
what we like/see in gaming environments. It's very easy for us to
expect our troops to act in certain expected ways on our gaming tables. How
many *war games* really deal with corruption and complete ineptitude by
commanders and politicians?
That said, I have been (slowly, oh sooooo slowly) working up forces for a DS
campaign that I'd like to play with my local group. The base premise is to
have each player have control of a mercenary company of their choosing. The
mercenaries are hired on short term contracts in a war being fought between
two of my political units.
The Order is a right wing religous faction that broke off of the NSL. You
could compare them to cold war russians (with religious zealousness), GW
Imperial Guard, or (since we brought up the Dorsai) the Friendlies. They use
almost "modern" equipment, but realy have to rely on numbers to be effective.
I use mostly GZG Future Wars tracked and wheeled vehicles for these guys.
The New Republic of America (NRA) is a spliter from the NAC who
re-founded
an America. They are higher tech than the Order, but not quite at grav tank
levels. I use mostly Ral Partha OGRE minis (and yes, they do field OGREs in
addition to crunchies).
The Order buys mercs to offset their lacking tech base. The NRA buys mercs to
offset their lack in numbers.
Now, the thing that I hadn't really thought about until this thread started
was how to model some of the political limitations.
First, we have a huge potential for corruption. Mercs might not get paid on
time, might get substandard supplies, or might be given missions that are more
about propaganda or personal motivation on the part of the contracter than
they are about winning anything.
Second, we have issues of ROE. Most games don't bother with ROE at all. I'd
love to hear thoughts on how to write such for games. I can think of a few
things, like "your units may not fire unless fired upon" and "oh, TBW, you
can't fire at any structure that might house civilians".
So, for gaming purposes, given a political and economic model that allows
for slammers-like merc companies, what do folks think about ways to
build in corruption, incompetence (other than letting me play the commander!),
and restrictive ROEs?
:)
John the Other than Atkinson John
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:00 AM, John Atkinson
<johnmatkinson@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:57 AM, <paul@otd.com> wrote:
doesn't
> > cut it, either, really. Flames are flames. Not every peacekeeper is
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don't forget the Dorsai and the Friendlies in Dickson's Childe Cycle...
F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr.Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented
with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The
Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!
> --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com>
Subject: [GZG] Interesting mercenary idea
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 4:54 PM
Rick Shelley wrote a series of books about the Dirigent Mercenary Company
(DMC). Dirigent's main export is mercenaries and the colony world is run by a
council of senior unit commanders.
Similarly, the older Joel Rosenberg book Not For Glory deals with a mercenary
organization of Jewish or Israeli (pretty much my prototype for the NI)
origins. They have a poor world and export mercenaries to help purchase
critical supplies for their people.
Falkenberg's Legion and The Mercenary by Jerry Pournelle (Hi Phil!) are also
seminal novels in this sort of genre.
http://www.stargrunt.ca/settings_hist/gzg_timeline/gzg_timeline.htm
I also draw your attention to the above link and mentions of mercenaries in
the canon timeline:
------------
2128 LLAR mercenary forces (the San Deseado Interface Brigade), hired by the
Indonesian Commonwealth to protect their installations on the disputed
Caroline Islands, clash with New Anglian forces against the will of their
employers. In a desperate attempt to conciliate with the Anglians, who are
threatening retribution, the Indonesians execute the entire LLAR Brigade.
Understandably furious at this, the LLAR strikes at the Indonesian settlement
on Easter, marking the start of what becomes known as the "Mercenary War" (as
both sides employ large numbers of mercenary and foreign volunteer contingents
to complement their own limited forces). The next four years see a very
scrappy and inconclusive war fought out, the only real winners being the bank
balances of the various mercenary units. 2129 Dutch mercenaries of the Van
Koost Armoured Legion, working for the Indonesians, recapture the
Commonwealth's settlement of Easter, defeating LLAR regular forces and a
Turkish mercenary unit in the process. A Swiss strike force employed by the
LLAR in turn raids a major Indonesian logistics centre in Manila on Earth, but
is repelled by the local forces and Japanese mercenary troops; the Swiss make
use of nerve agents to cover their withdrawal, causing heavy casualties to the
Japanese and bringing severe protests in the UN assembly. 2130 Shi'ite
fundamentalists declare independence from the Islamic Federation on their
Outworld settlements of Abu Haman and Sad Al Bari. Saudi attempts to regain
control of these colonies fail as troops of the 2nd Islamic Legion sent to
suppress the rebellion switch sides after landfall and join the
fundamentalists under the banner of Mullah Saeed ibn Aamir. The two colonies
declare the formation of the Saeed Khalifate and, in an effort to raise much
needed hard currency soon begin to utilise their armed forces as mercenary
units for hire. Over the next few years, the Khalifate's mercenaries are to
earn themselves the reputation of being among the toughest units in Human
space.2131 Israeli and Islamic mercenaries clash with each on Easter despite
both having been hired by the Indonesians; both forces' contracts are promptly
revoked, and several Commonwealth Defence Ministry staff responsible for the
hirings are severely punished for their lack of foresight. 2132 The Mercenary
War is finally brought to an end with the signing of
the Mercenary Charter on the Dutch-settled world of Freisland. The
Charter, as well as finalising the LLAR/Commonwealth dispute with heavy
reparations being paid by the Indonesians over the San Deseado Brigade
incident, lays out a code to which all mercenary units and their employers are
expected to adhere. All signatories to the Charter, which include most nations
and blocs that either supply or employ foreign mercenary troops, agree not to
hire any unit that does not comply with the terms of the code. 2142 The Accord
of Freisland brings the First Solar War to an end, with the Anglians hailing
it as a major victory while the ESU licks its
wounds and considers its next move. Human space enjoys an all-too-brief
period of relative peace.2165 The Third Solar War is heralded by a massive
operation by the NAC to regain the worlds left under Eurasian control
following the Treaty of Khorramshahr. Early successes falter as the FSE once
again allies with the ESU, providing men and material as well as funding to
hire mercenary contingents from the LLAR and the Indonesian Commonwealth. 2166
The Third Solar War escalates further as the NSL attacks the bordering FSE
frontier. Mercenary forces from New Israel are hired by the NAC. The Romanov
Hegemony attacks the ESU and refuses safe passage for Indonesian or LLAR
mercenary units through its space. 2170 Scandinavian mercenaries employed by
the NAC overrun Compville and install the separatists in government; Compville
joins the New French Republic, which is still denied any kind of diplomatic
recognition by the UN due to FSE pressure. 2177 A sudden ESU fleet attack on
the Anglian Nagisa system signals the start of the next "hot phase" of the
Third Solar War; the Nagisa colony falls quickly, following a warning orbital
bombardment from ESU warships. Meanwhile, NSL regulars and Swiss mercenary
units strike at FSE settlements on the inner colony of Flensberg. 2181 On
Kayleigh, NSL and NAC armoured forces are defeated by LLAR mercenary units;
General Heinrich Vortsheimer, leading the Allied troops, is relieved of his
command following this ignominious reverse. 2182The ESU lands Khalifate
mercenaries on Tsitsihar to reinforce their offensive against Romanov units in
the colony. 2183 Indonesian mercenary units working for the ESU capture NSL
possessions on Salzburg. With the aid of the Khalifate troops the ESU
finally takes Tsitsihar from the Romanovs.-----------
Note the end to the Mercenary War. Note the importance of Friesland (might as
well have been called Drake!). Note the Mercenary Charter.
Now, there will have to be someone who enforces the Charter. Is that a
multi-national body? In times of Solar Wars, probably that would not
fly. So it does augur for a Bonding Authority (a term I borrow from the
Traveller RPG) who insure mercenary units are reliable in service delivery (or
they don't get any 'bonding' and no one reputable will hire them). This
authority would also ensure they kept to the terms of the charter, for the
sake of its own integrity. Units violating the Charter would be struck from
the Bonding Authority's lists. The Bonding Authority might be considered a
Trust. That Bonding Authority is likely
to be more like a giant insurance company/banker with a dash of
investigator/enforcer thrown in. It might be a UN-sanctioned or even run
agency (or not). I can see the UN exerting influence on it to keep Mercenaries
from being allowed to operate in the Core or on the Homeworld.
Friesland seems the logical home for it, since it is the place the charter is
signed and later that is a neutral ground where the Accord of Friesland
(unrelated) can be signed.
In my GZGverse, it is the Mercenary Bonding Authority (MBA) that enforces the
Mercenary Charter. I see mercenaries as being based everywhere from small
colony worlds (outer) of the various factions to independent rim colony worlds
unaligned with any faction. Some (that are in favour with governments) may be
based in the Inner Colonies or even in the Core, although probably very few
and those very reputable,
top-end, and executing operations mostly outside of the Core (PMCs may
handle VIP protection and so on within the Core or on Earth).
TomB
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e thoughts:
1) The UN and every other nation, to one extent or another, employs
mercenaries. If we define a mercenary as a soldier who works for pay, then
pretty much every army fits that bill. Try to not pay your first world army
for any length of time and see just how well that goes over...
2) The UN has studied the use of PMCs and some advocates have suggested the
use of PMCs. One of the big problem in UN deployments is national
governments imposing secondary ROEs and terms-of-use restrictions.
Another one is nations having an election and a sudden change in policy,
possibly resulting in pulling out their troops. This makes the idea of a unit
of professionals, beholden only to their paymaster (conjecturally the UN),
potentially a more stable and effective way to do many of the sorts of
stabilization missions the UN may wish to do. (Note: I'm totally ignoring the
obvious issue of corruption and incompetence.)
3) The UN in our world draws from nations around the globe. But it suffers
from this in terms of interoperability, communication, mutual support -
all of which aren't anywhere near what you'd like. Even competent forces that
don't work together all that often may not do such a good job. And many UN
missions are not exactly what conventional warfighters train for. So to be a
good UN soldier, you may have to retrain into new processes (and then train
back to return to a more conventional warfighting role).
4) The UN as it stands today has no tax base and no population to draw
soldiers from. It cannot recruit from any nation (because it has no tax base
and it would have to ask permission anyway). This point is short, but it means
the UN in the GZGverse could not exist with this same support mechanism.
That's a profound truth.
5) The UN often goes into places (like many internationalist efforts) and
tries to do some good and does a bad job of it (troops that don't speak the
language, cultural clashes, poorly trained troops in some cases) and/or
leaves too soon. This is one of the challenges of only being able to mount
missions if and when member countries allow it and with whatever resources
they give you when you show up cap in hand.
6) The UN in the GZGverse actually has enough capability to enforce its will
upon uber-powers (bigger than hyper) like the ESU and NAC. Do the
demographics for these states, even with pessimistic assumptions, and you get
*huge* tax bases and manpower bases. They've got a lot of real estate to
protect, but their amount of political and economic influence would be quite
terrifying. And yet the UNSC gets them to play ball in the Core and at
Homeworld. Mostly. The UNSC also has a cool fleet of (presumably expensive)
ships of its own design with crews that one presumes, in a universe of regular
large scale conflict, actually get something accomplished, so I can't see them
being loyal to various nations whose factional loyalties change regularly.
Studying what the UN can do in the GZGverse tells me several things:
1) It has its own tax base. It probably is not as big as the ESU or NAC, but
it has its own tax base. Probably it owns scientific patents, it gets some
funding from the member nations, and it probably has acquired some other
funding methods like (just making these up) a tax on each colonist outbound
from the core or a tax on each FTL drive or whatever. But ultimately, it needs
a revenue source sufficient to give it credibility, make it a professional
force, remove the worst risks of corruption (otherwise this guts the other two
previous aspects mentioned), and sufficient to pay for large ships and well
armoured Marines, even if they are fewer in number than the forces of the
larger nations. It is an entity in its own right with its own sources of cash
and can't be directly hobbled by any one member nation.
2) It has its own manpower base. Tax base must mean a manpower base. I assume
it actually does recruit from veterans of other national fleets and armies. It
may also have basically opened UN citizenship to a lot of the smaller spots on
the world (small island nations, and so on) to drum up a
base population - if sea levels rise, maybe the UN helped them get setup
off world and thus gets something which evolves into its own population base.
I
assume UN manpower base is not as large as its tax/financial base (which
could be driven largely by scientific patents), but it has to be enough to
provide some decent number of recruits for a small UNSC Marine force and a
UNSC Navy.
Sure, UN missions still need national forces in support. Big fleets will have
some UNSC ships and a bunch of national ones. But the national ones will
always operate under double ROE and with possibly differing agendas, so the UN
has its own smaller navy and ground forces, enough to ensure that the NAC or
ESU not supporting a particular action will still let the UN's agenda go
forward.
I think the UN of the GZGverse has the equivalent financial base of a second
tier power. I think it has the technological base of a first tier power and
the population base of a lower second or upper third tier power. This lets it
do the kind of things the canon history shows it doing. It also means that the
UNSC still needs the support from some of the other major players to get very
large scale stuff done. The UNSC won't be investing planets on its own. It
won't be running huge spaceborne campaigns by itself. But it has enough
strength, professionalism, income and manpower to be a credible coordinating
authority and to not be as corrupt as the current day version.
I'm working backwards from miniatures and from canon history and trying to
provide an understanding of the UN that justifies the things they've
accomplished and the miniatures produced. The UN of today would not work in
the era of large scale bloc-type conflicts across space and with the
feeble budgets of today and the corruption and ineffectiveness. Since this is
not what canon gives us, we must imagine some scenario that makes canon
possible and it is a fairly different flavour of UN that this suggests.
And mercenaries figure in this if the UN runs the Bonding Authority. They
insure factions stick to the Mercenary Charter (and so do PMCs), they get a
cut of every transaction, and they have available small groups of professional
soldiers to use to supplement their own limited forces when crises arise and
where member nation support is either slow to rally or politically
problematic. The UN would use mercenaries as stiffeners and
fire-brigades, whereas most of the other powers would use them to give
isolation from actions (proxies) and to not require the nation to deploy its
troops into whatever situation or conflict.
TomB
I thank everyone who contributed to this discussion. It is nice to have
sparked a discussion that went someplace. I will not thank John for
being less abusive/abrasive than he normally is. I did not ask for
opinion on real world UN failings and what he offered could have been phrased
in a manner that was much less volatile, regardless of what his personal
experience has been. I do not think that one's personal experiences or the
fact that one feels slighted or wronged gives them permission to disregard the
basic tenants of polite conversation and mutual discussion.
There was a lot of good information given out by those who actually wanted to
contribute something useful to the discussion but, sadly,
reading through it was tainted by John's lack of self-control and then
the following defense it.
Once again, thank you to those who wanted to discuss this in a productive
manner.
-Eli
P.S. John, you mentioned that one contributer should read for comprehension,
not with his emotions. Perhaps it would do you some good to write for
information, not with your emotions.
> On Dec 11, 2008, at 12:00 PM, emu2020@comcast.net wrote:
> I thank everyone who contributed to this discussion. It is nice to
I gotta ask, are you in the UN? Are you a UN peace keeper? Why do you feel
personally insulted? Because when I review what John said, he wasn't abusing
you, he wasn't abusing anyone on the list. He was stating plain facts. Are
plain facts volatile?
FACT, the UN Peace keeping missions have a serious record of partaking and
encouraging the slave sex trade. Would you prefer they be called Comfort
women? Is that less abrasive?
FACT, the ROEs have in past events, forced peace keepers of arguably of a
higher quality to sit and observe and do nothing else while they watched one
group murder another group, en masses. This has happened in multiple
locations. What less inflammatory language would you suggest to describe this?
FACT, third world nations that provide UN Peacekeeping troops do so because
they get hard currency for doing so. Sometimes they cut corners on the quality
and training of the troops in question. Sometimes they cut corners in the
quality of leadership too.
If these facts distress you, write your legislator and complain. Don't get mad
at John A for pointing uncomfortable facts out.
> There was a lot of good information given out by those who actually
Plain facts aren't useful? Going forwards, the UNSC would have to (or perhaps
it has not) have fixed these issues else it will continue to be a poor choice
in the realm of military forces. As TomB mentions, it would also have to have
territory so it's not begging for forces from member nations. OR paying for
said forces and getting crappy troops.
We're playing a game that's supposed to reflect realities of complex political
issues overlaid atop current or near current and past
political/military history. If you don't like that, go play the game
that has the dystopic future with a god emperor and space orcs.
> P.S. John, you mentioned that one contributer should read for
If you don't want to get into a flame war with John, don't toss insults back
when you're complaining about being insulted.
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> Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> [...]
IIRC, didn't someone once post a link containing (or transcribe) some of the
ROE restrictions that UN soldiers had to labor under in Bosnia a few years
ago? I vaguely remember it, and was somewhat taken aback by what they were not
allowed to do.
> >
As the *many* years of being on this list have shown. :-D That John
hasn't already taken the gauntlet and run with it is because he: 1) decided
it's not worth it (rare, but happens now and then), 2) is too busy with his
Real Job of disarming explosives in the Middle East and hasn't had time to
relax on the list yet (then again there is that whole time zone difference; he
might actually be sleeping!), or 3) had started but hasn't yet finished
crafting his trademark reply.
;-)
Mk
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am not in the UN. And no, I was not personally insulted, however I do take
offense to the obviously unchecked manner in which he chose to state his
facts. I simply feel that he could have chosen his words better and staged his
points in a manner that seemed so intentionally inflamatory. What also bothers
me is that, for whatever reason, I (and I assume others) are just expected to
accept John's choice of words as some sort of character trait that is
unavoidable and must be tolerated. I don't see it as so. Rudeness and lack of
regard for others is never tolerable.
I have stated in my responses to this, that I do not deny or dispute the
truth of the points made by John. Though I cannot claim any first-hand
experience, I am not living in a cave and consider myself a reasonably
informed individual. This being said, I don't think the fact that somebody
shares some personal connection with something allows them to step outside of
the bounds of tasteful discussion and, when I feel afronted by a person's
choice of words, I am going to voice my displeasure.
Your reply seems to indicate a fundimental disregard for what I have
said and an almost willful side-stepping of the details in order to back
up a position which has nothing to do with the source of my complaint. I am
not and did not ignore facts. Indeed, the only compaint I had with what was
said by John was the way in which he chose to say it and nothing about the
facts that he contributed.
Strong and objectionable language is just that, no matter how riteous the
point it is being used to make. If this same tone were used to make a point
about something more obviously prejudicial, my irritation might not be so
singular. I don't care who you are or what you have done, nothing gives you
the right shove your venom down my throat.
As to the assertion that my P.S. was intended to start a flame war, it was not
intended as such. It was meant to demonstrate that the restraint that John
seemed so ready to insist from another contributor should and could just as
easily be expected from him.
Thank you all,
-Eli
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have to say the few times that the UN has shown up in my "local" games they
have been a combo of the "best humanity has" with some of the worse.
??? The UN in our games is large powerful "non-State" group.? Yep they
recruit from all over the human space, with a HQ on Earth but at the sametime
they keep "bases" in the Periphery that handle "Explorer Corp" operations.? We
have them handle Merc contracts as a neutral
party/bonding agency.? For those of you familier with CBT unverse, our
UN is alot like Comstar.? They also handle organizing of "large scale"
rescue/recovery operations.
??? And there is rumor that the UN in our games has FTL Comm ability with some
of their larger ships and the Explore Corps.
??? But we have seen times that a UN force has been backed by member nation
ships who own very restricted ROE has caused the UN issues.? Recently UN
admiral in chanrge of a taskforce stood by and let 1 nation fleet pound
another nation fleet.? Could the UN ships alone defeat the attacker, no but
with their ships the attacker might have had second thoughts.? But they were
bought off or had a ROE that wouldn't allow them to interfer.? They only were
forced to combat status when the attackers turned towards them after finishing
off the other navy force.
??? And in combo FT/ground pounded game, had what we beleive was a UN
striketeam, engaging and removing a scientist and his staff from a lab before
blowing it while a "Pirate Force" was raiding the planet, a UN Frigate was
spotted in orbit.
Other John (grin),
I have often wondered if political charts such as those used in Peter Pig's
AK47 Republic might not be the ticket to adding some real world ups and downs
to games. Random events and happenings that are decided after your army is
selected but that influence the game at hand can add a lot to the fun and
"realism" of the game.
-Eli
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I also found no rudeness, nor offensiveness in John's response. He was giving
some additional insight as to how reality is often far, far away from
what we like/see in gaming environments. It's very easy for us to
expect our troops to act in certain expected ways on our gaming tables. How
many *war games* really deal with corruption and complete ineptitude by
commanders and politicians?
That said, I have been (slowly, oh sooooo slowly) working up forces for a DS
campaign that I'd like to play with my local group. The base premise is to
have each player have control of a mercenary company of their choosing. The
mercenaries are hired on short term contracts in a war being fought between
two of my political units.
The Order is a right wing religous faction that broke off of the NSL. You
could compare them to cold war russians (with religious zealousness), GW
Imperial Guard, or (since we brought up the Dorsai) the Friendlies. They use
almost "modern" equipment, but realy have to rely on numbers to be effective.
I use mostly GZG Future Wars tracked and wheeled vehicles for these guys.
The New Republic of America (NRA) is a spliter from the NAC who
re-founded
an America. They are higher tech than the Order, but not quite at grav tank
levels. I use mostly Ral Partha OGRE minis (and yes, they do field OGREs in
addition to crunchies).
The Order buys mercs to offset their lacking tech base. The NRA buys mercs to
offset their lack in numbers.
Now, the thing that I hadn't really thought about until this thread started
was how to model some of the political limitations.
First, we have a huge potential for corruption. Mercs might not get paid on
time, might get substandard supplies, or might be given missions that are more
about propaganda or personal motivation on the part of the contracter than
they are about winning anything.
Second, we have issues of ROE. Most games don't bother with ROE at all. I'd
love to hear thoughts on how to write such for games. I can think of a few
things, like "your units may not fire unless fired upon" and "oh, TBW, you
can't fire at any structure that might house civilians".
So, for gaming purposes, given a political and economic model that allows
for slammers-like merc companies, what do folks think about ways to
build in corruption, incompetence (other than letting me play the commander!),
and restrictive ROEs?
:)
John the Other than Atkinson John
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:00 AM, John Atkinson
<johnmatkinson@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:57 AM, <paul@otd.com> wrote:
doesn't
> > cut it, either, really. Flames are flames. Not every peacekeeper is
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I also found no rudeness, nor offensiveness in John's response. He
was giving some additional insight as to how reality
is often far, far away from what we like/see in gaming
environments. It's very easy for us to expect our troops to act in
certain expected ways on our gaming tables. How many *war games* really
deal with corruption and complete ineptitude by commanders and
politicians?<br> <br>That said, I have been (slowly, oh sooooo slowly) working
up forces for a DS campaign that I'd like to play with my local group. The
base premise is to have each player have control of a mercenary company of
their choosing. The mercenaries are hired on short term contracts in a war
being fought between two of my political units. <br> <br>The Order is a right
wing religous faction that broke off of the NSL. You could compare them
to cold war russians (with religious zealousness), GW Imperial Guard, or
(since we brought up the Dorsai) the Friendlies. They use almost
"modern" equipment, but realy have to rely on numbers to be
effective. I use mostly GZG Future Wars tracked and wheeled vehicles for these
guys.<br> <br>The New Republic of America (NRA) is a spliter from the NAC who
re-founded an America. They are higher tech than the Order, but not
quite at grav tank levels. I use mostly Ral Partha OGRE minis (and yes, they
do field OGREs in addition to crunchies). <br> <br>The Order buys mercs to
offset their lacking tech base. The NRA buys mercs to offset their lack
in numbers.<br><br>Now, the thing that I hadn't really thought about until
this thread started was how to model some of the political limitations.<br>
<br>First, we have a huge potential for corruption. Mercs might not get
paid on time, might get substandard supplies, or might be given missions that
are more about propaganda or personal motivation on the part of the contracter
than they are about winning anything.<br> <br>Second, we have issues of
ROE. Most games don't bother with ROE at all. I'd love to hear
thoughts on how to write such for games. I can think of a few things,
like "your units may not fire unless fired upon" and "oh, TBW,
you can't fire at any structure that might house civilians".<br>
<br>So, for gaming purposes, given a political and economic model that
allows for slammers-like merc companies, what do folks think about ways
to build in corruption, incompetence (other than letting me play the
commander!), and restrictive ROEs?<br> <br>:)<br><br>John the Other than
Atkinson John<br><br><div
class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:00 AM, John Atkinson
<span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:johnmatkinson@gmail.com">johnmatkinson@gmail.com</a>></s
pan> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div
class="Ih2E3d">On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 6:57 AM, <<a
href="mailto:paul@otd.com">paul@otd.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Well, it's modern day reality.<br>
><br>
> Cloaking flames and prejudicial beliefs in the name of 'reality'
doesn't<br> > cut it, either, really. Flames are flames. Not every
peacekeeper is<br> > corrupt, and saying that is only going to start long,
pointless arguments.<br>
<br>
</div>Didn't say every peacekeeper was corrupt. Read for
comprehension, not<br> with your emotions.<br>
<br>
Said the ones who weren't corrupt and criminal were still hobbled by<br>
stupid ROEs. Srebrenica, anyone?<br> <font color="#888888"><br> John<br>
</font><div class="Ih2E3d">--<br>
"Thousands of Sarmatians, Thousands of Franks, we've slain them
again<br> and again. We're looking for thousands of
Persians."<br>
--Vita Aureliani<br>
<br>
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n,
For incompetence, you should let only one unit be a blue (maybe red) 1. while
most of the rest are green (maybe blue) 3s with a smattering of
green/blue (maybe red) 2s.
Corruption....set up a table of potential effects and die roll it. :-)
Mk
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:35 AM, John Lerchey <lerchey@gmail.com> wrote:
> I also found no rudeness, nor offensiveness in John's response. He
You
> could compare them to cold war russians (with religious zealousness),
They
> use almost "modern" equipment, but realy have to rely on numbers to be
doesn't
> > cut it, either, really. Flames are flames. Not every peacekeeper is
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:11 AM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1) The UN and every other nation, to one extent or another, employs
I quibble with the definition--to me a mercenary is one primarily
motivated by and specifically NOT motivated by national loyalty. While a
national army probably would desert or mutiny if their pay was stopped
completely (although the year the US Army was cut off from funding, it didn't
mutiny) it doesn't meet the definition of a mercenary force.
> 2) It has its own manpower base. Tax base must mean a manpower base. I
One thought I had was the idea of UN citizenship, which comes at the
end of a term of service to the UN in a full-time professional role.
I like 25 years, but that's my unrepentant Republican sentiments peeking
through. With UN citizenship comes tax exemption from a nation's taxes...
Potentially a powerful motivator, especially if hereditary.
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Indy <indy.kochte@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2) is too busy with his Real Job of disarming explosives in the Middle
Point of Fact: I am at Fort Hood, Texas. Got medevaced out with eye
problems and during the last round of staff cuts at MNC-I Someone made
the decision that it would be convenient to cut the job of someone who was in
the US at the time.
I have, however, been busy as hell.
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 9:35 AM, John Lerchey <lerchey@gmail.com> wrote:
> First, we have a huge potential for corruption. Mercs might not get
Possibly--although mercenaries who don't get the pay and supplies they
contracted for have a tendency to turn on their employers. More likely is
diversion of supplies from a regular forces to the mercs and the resulting
friction causing the regulars to not support the mercs.
> Second, we have issues of ROE. Most games don't bother with ROE at
Depends on who gets to write the ROE. Some things that you might see could
include a requirement for Positive Identification. In other words, you have to
eyeball the guy with the AK and direct aimed fire at him, rather than "OMG, we
got shot at, Iraqi Death Blossom!!!". You might see a restriction on what sort
of weaponry you can employ in
a built up area--perhaps if you take fire you can shoot direct fire
weapons at the building, but you can't shoot artillery or rockets at the
village. Or to use certain heavy weapons, perhaps permission of a higher
headquarters is required.
> On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, John Atkinson wrote:
> Probably. Something like a transational not-for-profit corporation.
Space Herpes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-me2inj1nNw
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, John Atkinson wrote:
> One thought I had was the idea of UN citizenship, which comes at the
I can't remember from Star Ship Troupers (the book) the benefits of
Citizenship. You get to vote but was that it?
for UN Citizenship: UN taxes too? (if there are any.)
> On Dec 12, 2008, at 10:11 PM, Mike Stanczyk wrote:
> I can't remember from Star Ship Troupers (the book) the benefits of
Yup. Pretty much.
> for UN Citizenship: UN taxes too? (if there are any.)
I'm pretty sure everyone pays the UNSC taxes in one way or the other.
D.
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 9:11 PM, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, John Atkinson wrote:
Franchise is described as "a purely nominal privilege that pays not one
centavo" by Johnnie's father in the first part of the book. Later on it is
mentioned that certain jobs are reserved for citizens.
> for UN Citizenship: UN taxes too? (if there are any.)
> On 12-Dec-08, at 5:42 PM, John Atkinson wrote:
For some reason I read that as "higher hindquarters"...
> John