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Gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
http://lists.csua.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lHello List,
Old school Traveller player (from the little black book era), have recently
stumbled across Full Thrust. Wow! This is how space battles should be played!
Have tried out a couple of solo games to get the hang of Vector movement
(single ship actions) and am looking to expand the action in my next game.
Having played a fair bit of Napoleonic Naval (Rod Langton's excellent rules),
I found the order writing and vector plotting fairly easy to follow. Now to
work on the tactics:)
One thing I find fascinating about FT is that you have a detailed tactical
game, and a rich official background, yet the whole
strategic/FTL component is so blurry. You can really do what you like.
Trolling the back-posts on this list turned up some very interesting
discussions on the FTL side of things. As an aside, someone mentioned David
Brin's Uplift series as an example of different alien races achieving FTL via
different means (I seem to remember 'Startide Rising'
describing a confrontation between a variety of space-faring sentients)
- sorta gas or petrol or diesel, depending on how you bend, fold or
slide through the bit between 'here' and 'there'.
This brings me to the strategic side of the game. As the Tuffleyverse is
basically the local stellar neighbourhood, and given that the longest recorded
human realspace displacement (per FB1) is about 7 light years, would one be
too far out to assume that usual (military) jumps are in
the order of 4 - 5 light years (about Jump-2 in Travellerese)?
I've had a quick look at the Unofficial/Official starmaps some amazingly
talented gentleman has posted on the net, but my knowledge of local stellar
astrography is too poor to begin to understand what links the various pieces
together. Like real estate, stellar 'empires' must be governed by location.
Why would someone claim a starsystem? For resources or position. Why position?
Because, to go from here to there
requires a lay-over or a refueling stop.
As FTL is explained in the rule books, one travels in a series of hops. There
is nothing to prevent a ship, or Fleet, hopping across the galaxy. If the
Kra'vak are attacking Terra, why do they need to attack, or besiege, Centaurus
and Barnard's Star? They can gaily skip across the deep dark, rendeavous in
the Oort, and zap Hume central.
But, according to the background, the NAC, for example, have lifted their
capital to New Albion (where is that, BTW?). All the Hume eggs are no longer
in one basket (I'm guessing that the NSL, FSE and ESU have
also established off-Terra capitals? Otherwise, Sol system is going to
be one crowded and tense little space, with the UNSC running traffic control
and keeping the various 'home' fleets at arm's length). So zapping Hume
central makes as much strategic sense as the Humes zapping
the Kra'vak homeworld - great morale effect (on both sides), but little
strategic effect - ok, so maybe it would be a great strategic stroke, in
that it could do one of two things, 1) crush the enemy's will to resist in
taking out their 'emotional' home but, more likely, 2) drive the enemy into a
war of revenge that will go right up to species extinction.
Nasty.
But, back to my original FTL point. In Traveller, for example, fleet movement
is regulated by supply, in particular the supply of hydrogen
fuel for J-drives. Hence, worlds with free-standing water, or systems
with gas giants, suddenly become strategically important (think coaling
stations in dreadnaught era naval games). Tankers can accompany fleets, but
the control of systems with free (or cheap) hydrogen in quantity shorten
supply lines and enhance force projection (ooh, I'm getting all
arm-chair technical :) ) otherwise the whole concept of 'frontiers'
becomes meaningless. I can launch my fleet from my homeworld, take as
many hops as I need, and pop up in any system you own - and you'll never
see me coming/my line of advance! How do you defend against that? Do
all important/high pop worlds get orbital forts while all ships are
sucked into vagabond fleets that charge about like Germanic tribes forcing the
Rhine? How do you, as defender, run down these invaders when they'll vanish
into the dark to pop up somewhere else? Sounds very
Saxon/Viking to me, not much fun for the Saxons :)
Anyway, back to the Tuffleyverse, I'm assuming there is some finite
range on ship/fleet FTL movement, be it fuel or supplies. Otherwise,
I'd suspect the little pocket states that are popping up would not be viable.
'nough from me,
Regards
> David Billinghurst wrote:
It is some time since I did anything with the background of the
VRC/URC, but here is the cartography:
http://www.frits.cistron.nl/tuffleyverse/vrc/cartography.html
It is basically a string of systems going into the depths of space. When I put
this background together the requirements I used were either a usefull system
with possibly habitable planets, or a stopover system (ltt 11585) to bridge
really long travel distances. The maximum acceptable jump distance I used was
about 7LY as you can see from the table.
> David Billinghurst wrote:
{snip}
> Anyway, back to the Tuffleyverse, I'm assuming there is some finite
Yes, I'm the so-called "amazinginly talented gentleman",
and you points are well taken.
The various "empires?" were chosen from stars that have
a high probability of hosting human-habitable planets,
and were roughly somewhat close to each other, and roughly in the proper
position relative to each other. I winged it, in other words.
Yes, there has to be a range or other limitation on
> David Billinghurst wrote:
Jump limits make sense, but they're not official in the Tuffleyverse. Other
interpretations: the smaller states could be colonies that became independent
(the "Yet Another NAC Break Away Colony" syndrome); or the
Major powers could have taken the easily-terraformed places, and the
lesser powers took what they could get. The Alarishi Empire, for instance, has
three M stars and no habitable planets (at least until the Unfortunate
Incident on Cibola gets resolved--it's possible we could end up with a
livable planet out of that)
David wrote on 07/26/2005 05:17:13 AM:
> Hello List,
Just to pop up before Dom does: ;->=
There's a couple of rule sets derived from vector FT specifically for
Traveller, Power Projection: Escort and Fleet. Just in case you missed it in
some of the archive diving you've been doing.
By the way, did you have the 308 or the $5.95 High Guard, or both?
> Have tried out a couple of solo games to get the hang of
I've not yet succumbed to the vector overlord, so I'm a bit timid about the
works of the rabid fans amongst the play test group, but if you're impressed
by FT in the vector world, I think you may be pleased with FTIII, to be
announced REAL SOON (tm).
> One thing I find fascinating about FT is that you have a
Remember one thing in particular: the game is there to sell figs; too bad Jon
did SUCH a brilliant job on the ruleset as to threaten to shadow the figs
themselves. And then he goes and makes the game generic, so you can tinker the
rules to play how you will. What kind of business model is that?
And, by the way, all others, I'm pretty sure the rules DID come first; like
this is the first time my humor devolved into a flight of fancy?
Anyway, that lovely rich background is strictly optional; we have regular
arguments whether there should be tactical FTL (some claim the cinematic as
that, though I mean to pop out of a battle), whether there should be warp near
large bodies, or even if it should occur in system. I've suggested
outside the Oort cloud, but others seem to think non-FTL required for
two thirds of the distance between neighboring stars a bit much.
> This brings me to the strategic side of the game. As the
Could you point that out by page number in FB1? I don't recall anything that
specific, and would want to see the context. However, you're certainly welcome
to construct your system based on that assumption. I see Frits has used the
same figure.
> I've had a quick look at the Unofficial/Official starmaps
Well, depending on if fuel IS an issue, and what FUEL is, there may be good
reasons not to be able to do that series of hops.
Course, that may be clear in part of the background I missed.
> But, according to the background, the NAC, for example,
There is strong reason to believe that the center is still most populated,
most productive, most important part of human space, though I won't call it
'proved'. However, there are some indications that the K's aren't purely
interested in annihilation.
Lucky us.
> But, back to my original FTL point. In Traveller, for
There are reasons to believe that all wars so far have been 'limited'.
Limits may have been self-imposed by the participants. Gestalt fear
after the destruction of an entire nation? After the examples bad of the 19th
and 20th centuries, colonization became more profitable than conquering?
Subtle controls by corporations, the UN, Illuminati? Dawning of the age of
Aquarius? *shrug*
Just saying because there's been no wars of purging, doesn't mean that they
are restricted by one set of means. We could have some human-derived
restriction, and, perhaps, if the K's get REALLY serious, we're doomed.
Your arguments are compelling, just 'not necessarily so', IMNSHO.
Whenever I see an inconsistancy in the background, I tend to think of it as
wiggle room for creative folks such as yourself. Just be ready to defend on
a whole RAFT of particulars when talking to this group. ;->=
The_Beast
> I've not yet succumbed to the vector overlord, so I'm a bit timid about
One suggestion for vector--instead of using "one Thrust allows you to
rotate any amount", use "one Thrust allows you to rotate 60 degrees." That
solves some maneuverability problesm and makes it sensible to have
wide-arc
weapons instead of loading up on all single-arc B3's.
> Could you point that out by page number in FB1?
In the last few pages of FB1 there's fluff text about FTL, it's around there.
Bottom of the page, although I can't quite visualize which page.
> There is strong reason to believe that the center is still most
Yeah, call it proved. Beth has done population modelling, and the vast
majority of the human race is still in the Solar system.
***
In the last few pages of FB1 there's fluff text about FTL, it's around there.
Bottom of the page, although I can't quite visualize which page.
> From FB1:
* The longest verified controlled jump (i.e.: excluding random misjumps) to
date was in 2177, when the NAC experimental fast courier RNS Hyacinth attained
a realspace displacement of 7.328 light years in a single Jumpspace transit.
***
Ok, locked in Tufflyverse, it is. I defer, and demure. Still, not locked into
Full Thrust, of course.
***
> There is strong reason to believe that the center is still most
Yeah, call it proved. Beth has done population modelling, and the vast
majority of the human race is still in the Solar system.
***
Well, when have you seen me anything BUT deferent to Beth's merest whim, but I
still maintain that the further into the future the prediction, the more
tenuous the underlying assumptions, especially when involving human and
technological advancements.
Also, her numbers tell less about the 'productivity' factor; Sol could well be
a bloated patrician living off the labors of the 'slave' colonies. Trust
me, that's the story many of them are telling. ;->=
Expect me to treat any FH's ignoring Beth's projections as pure fantasy, but
expect me to acknowledge any FH as fantasy, just more or less reasonable.
By the by, I said:
> ... I think you may be pleased with FTIII, to be announced REAL SOON
> From FB1:
...Our intention is that there will be a full new edition of the rules, FULL
THRUST THIRD EDITION, at some point in the near(ish) future,... Jon Tuffley,
GROUND ZERO GAMES, April 1998.
As always, breath holding is contra-indicated...
The_Beast
> Also, her numbers tell less about the 'productivity' factor; Sol could
Trust
me, that's the story many of them are telling. ;->=
I wasn't talking about the productivity, just the population.
Maybe, but my point, which you called 'proved', did.
The_Beast
gzg-l-bounces@lists.csua.berkeley.edu wrote on 07/26/2005 11:39:12 AM:
> >Also, her numbers tell less about the 'productivity'
> Nyrath wrote:
> Anyway, back to the Tuffleyverse, I'm assuming there is some finite
> I'd suspect the little pocket states that are popping up would not be
> viable.
An "other limitation" that could be a factor is FTL speed (as opposed to
range). In other words, just because your fleet has the range to go from A to
B doesn't necessarily mean it can get there in time to defend the system
against whoever's attacking them. So even setting fuel aside, it seems to me
there are valid reasons why interstellar states would still have to be
reasonably contiguous.
Of course, a lot of that depends on the existence and nature of FTL commo and
FTL sensor technology. I can't remember off the top of my head what the
"official" Tufflyverse answer is. Is FTL commo basically
instantaneous regardless of distance? Is it possible/feasible to detect
an invading fleet before they drop out of FTL?
Scott
"We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty." Serenity premieres
Sep 30th.
G'day,
> Well, when have you seen me anything BUT deferent to
Ahhh I'll remember that;)
> but I still maintain that the further into the future
True, but given absolute physical constraints on getting things into orbit
(even with elevators), transport to new locations (even with
sardine-like status packing) and reproduction at the other end (allowing
for artificial wombs, high pregnancy rates etc) - even with the most
giving parameterisations there's still more people in the Sol system by
far. Just not enough time in the gzg-timeline for much different to fall
out sorry.
Production wise though you're spot on about the "centre of gravity" of the
production distribution being potentially anywhere.
Cheers
In regards to jump displacement, I figure that the standard MILITARY
jump [in non-emergency circumstances] is 6.5 lightyears or 2 parsecs.
Jump displacement for ships with civilian-built jumpdrives is 1 parcec.
But this brings me to the rules involving entering and exiting a battle
scenario using the jumpdrive. Since it only makes sense that most space
battles occure in the vicinity of strategic targets, like planets, it presumes
that jumpdrives CAN function in a stellar gravity well, but with limitations.
Jumps with a displacment of 1-2 parsecs can only occure outside a
stellar gravity well. And the closest approach a trans-stellar jump can
make to a stellar gravity well is the outer limit of the star's
planetary-stable orbit ring. This usually lies between the orbit of the
outermost major sidereal body and the star's Oort cloud. The limit varies,
based upon the type & size of the star in question...
TYPE SIZE OUTER LIMIT [in AU]
O Ia 120.0 O Ib 110.0 O V 105.0
B Ia 105.0 B Ib 100.0 B I 95.0 B II 95.0 B IV 95.0 B V 90.0
A Ia 85.0 A Ib 85.0 A II 75.0 A III 70.0 A IV 70.0 A V 65.0
F Ia 65.0 F Ib 65.0 F II 60.0 F III 60.0 F IV 55.0 F V 55.0
G Ia 55.0 G Ib 55.0 G II 50.0 G III 50.0 G IV 45.0 G V 45.0 G VI 40.0
K Ia 40.0 K Ib 40.0 K II 35.0 K III 35.0 K IV 35.0 K V 30.0 K VI 30.0
M Ia 30.0 M Ib 30.0 M II 25.0 M III 25.0 M V 20.0 M VI 15.0
Dwarf 25.0
Superbright +5.0
Binaries +20.0
Trinaries +30.0
Pulsars 45.0 Neutron Stars 45.0 Protostars 20.0
> From there, there are 3 types of intra-stellar or inter-system jumps.
Since the jumpdrives have to be recalibrated to operate inside the gravity
well, the jump displacements measure in AU, and vary based upon the position
of the ship IN the stellar gravity well.
An ingress system jump [a jump where the ship is moving TOWARDS the star] has
a maximum displacement of HALF the distance from the ship's current position
to the star.
EXAMPLE: A ship on its way to Earth from deep space has reached the
outer limit of the Sun's gravity well. Since the Sun is a Type G-V, the
ship ends its interstellar jump 45.0 AU from the Sun - about 6 AU beyond
the orbit of Pluto. The ship will now make an ingress system jump with
a max-displacement of 22.5 AU, putting it half-way between the orbits of
Uranus & Neptune. The ship's next jump towards Earth will bring it
11.25 AU from the Sun, just beyond the orbit of Saturn. Next jump -
5.63 AU, near Jupiter. Next Jump - 2.81 AU, between Mars orbit & the
asteroid belt. Next jump - 1.4 AU. The max-displacement for the next
jump is 0.7 AU, but the ship will only need a 0.4 AU ingress jump to bring it
close enough to use its maindrives to arrive in Earth orbit.
An egress system jump [a jump where a ship is moving AWAY from a star] has a
maximum displacement of TWICE the distance of the ship FROM the star.
EXAMPLE: Jumping from Earth to the Sun's gravity well outer limit - 2
AU - 4 AU - 8 AU - 16 AU - 32 AU - and 64 AU, well outside the edge of
the gravity well, and now able to its jumpdrives to span parsecs per jump.
A lateral jump is used to travel AROUND a star system to reach planets that
lie on the opposite side of a star. A ship making a lateral jump can displace
realspace a distance EQUAL to its own position from the
star in AU - AS LONG AS THE JUMP DISPLACEMENT BRINGS THE SHIP NOT MUCH
CLOSER OR FURTHER FROM THE STAR AS THE SHIP'S STARTING POSITION. There IS some
leeway to this rule; If you draw a line equal in distance from the star to the
ship's position, to a point in system space that lies in equal distance from
the star to that ship's position in the direction you wish to travel, you can
jump to any point along that line within a
wedge that lies 45° stellar-outbound or 22.5° stellar-inbound.
Beyond those angles, you are limited to the laws regarding ingress or egress
jumps.
As always, I invite your comments. [Let'er rip, boys!]
Hi Nyrath,
> Yes, I'm the so-called "amazinginly talented gentleman",
Well, you've put together a wonderful thing with your star map, so praise is
due.
<snip some descriptions of map building>
> For purposes of creating an interesting wargame, the
A fascinating site, I have book marked it for further study. Thanks again,