Basic Street Fighting Manual Release Date January 19th 2196 Colonel Hans Vogel
Below is a summary of the basic principles regarding the techniques and
methods employed successfully by the 3rd Army during the recent
street-level engagements with the Kra'Vak.
1. Shock groups
When entering a Kra'Vak held city the first action necessary is an army wide
reorganisation of all troop units. All base grade units (platoons, companies
and the like) should be dispensed with and be replaced by a "shock group."
Each shock group should include two each of storm, reinforcement and reserve
groups. Each storm group should contain (at an optimum) eight to ten soldiers,
though five can be an effective minimum for the most technologically well
supported nationalities. These storm
troopers must be armed with AARs, MGs, GMS/P or IAVRs, excessive numbers
of grenades, daggers, mountable small scale explosives and clearance tools
(like shovels or axes). Where possible these troops should follow in on the
heals of artillery, but they should also be capable of initiating attacks from
right on top of enemy positions and hitting hard, fast and as silently as
possible. Without the chaos caused by an artillery strike, surprise is
crucial. When mounting an attack one shock group should assault while the
other covers.
Reinforcements should only move in if directly signalled by a verified live
member of the storm group. Kra'Vak have been known to try and mislead
reinforcements into believing they are joining a valid attack when they are
actually being misdirected and fed into a trap.
In all facets of action versus this deadly enemy speed and being fully alert
is the key. Any attack that takes more than three minutes to initiate,
complete and consolidate is likely to face failure due to counteroffensives
launched by some hidden or enraged Kra'Vak warrior.
2. Zones of Unit Action
Each shock group should be assigned a definite zone of action, smaller groups
are typically not sufficient to hold ground against the Kra'Vak, which
apparently have a minimum effective unit size more equitable with a half
platoon by human force definitions. A zone should typically be made up of a
group of buildings within a city block under attack. When the buildings on one
side of a city block are held by friendly troops, then a storm group (or
preferably two) should be assigned to clear the buildings on each of the
adjacent sides of the block (to right and left). Reserve groups should remain
in the friendly ground to give support by firing across the block into the
rear and side windows and
entrances of the adjacent enemy-held buildings. This necessity is
exceptionally important. The equipment schedule in such actions should
include GMS/P, high powered sniper rifles, SMG's, IVARs, PPIGs and
assault cannons.
3. Boundaries Between Units
To avoid confusion it is a key tactical doctrine not to split responsibility
on key areas. Streets are just such a key area. As they simultaneously present
easily identifiable chalk marks for the separation and demarcation of units.
They are a natural avenue for advances or retrograde movement. Although they
are of no actual use for movement, they are a natural guide. Instead of
risking confusion by dividing the street down the middle it is more effective
to draw boundaries between units along the face of buildings on one side of
the street. This means the street itself, together with the buildings along
the opposite side, becomes the responsibility of a single unit. A much clearer
and safer situation.
4. Enemy Firing Positions
Use all available sensors to check buildings for firing loopholes. The
Kra'Vak must have a long history of city-based fighting as they are
masters of all the tricks. Bots should be used where possible to check crawl
spaces are clear and to sweep rooms for booby traps before any human troops
enter. Kra'Vak are just as likely to spend hours sitting in wait under one of
their plated floor tiles or lying at the bottom of the pools that feature in
most of their houses before exploding out in a hail of railgun fire. Plumb
every depth, before classing a building
secure, repeatedly check it as they may re-enter stealthily using a
hidden route. Where possible level all buildings that are mostly of enemy
design and keep all vital personnel and materiel only in buildings that
largely remain of human design and fabrication.
When moving about near more open ground (like alleyways) or entry points of
any form, like windows or doors, be aware of hostile fire. Kra'Vak are quite
adept at skipping slugs down building faces, and getting
effective ricochet fire off hard-core building and paving materials.
5. Routes of Advance
All conceivable routes of advance should be taken: hallways, stairways,
rooftops, basements and blown walls. If available make good use of UV and IR
blocking smoke as a screen. This will hide the troops from both Kra'Vak
sensors and line of sight observation. Human visible wavelengths are less
important, as best as we can tell Kra'Vak have bipolar peaks in their visual
sensitivity and it's conveniently low where we are strong. Do not look the
gift horse in the mouth utilise it to full capacity. Nevertheless do not get
careless. It is best to cross streets near the centre of blocks, as the close
ground not only provides better protection in the classical street fighting
sense, but also because it seems the small gap makes it harder for the Kra'Vak
to see through our camouflage and identify our troops before they reach the
cover of the other side of the street. At all costs avoid the larger open
areas and intersections, as the extra ground provides the Kra'Vak with enough
distance to discern the troops and bring down very deadly fire. When making an
attack across a street it is also important to ensure that the doors of
buildings across the street are open. Kra'Vak locks are a complete mystery so
the best bet is just to blast open the doors and windows before you even begin
the crossing.
When moving about in open ground or over rubble, keep low. The crouch is good
for speed, but crawling on all fours or even flat on your belly (if necessary)
is good not only for increased cover benefits but also for stability in the
lose and often unsound rubble piles. Be warned however it can be a tough
choice to pick between a fast moving crouch that risks a twisted ankle (and
subsequent exposure to Kra'Vak fire) and a slower steadier crawl that risks
identification and a ricochet shot.
6. Entering and Clearing Buildings
Always enter buildings via the lower floors. While current doctrine (developed
through years of space station boarding and closed settlement assaults)
advocates entry at all levels, even suggesting the higher the better, this is
a fatal move against the Kra'Vak. They show little regard for infrastructure
and at the earliest suggestion of movement above them will fire heavy weapons
or explosive charges up through the floors, or simply demolish the building
out from under the human attackers. Learn from their methods and use them
against them. In addition, if Kra'Vak troops are located above a human group
toss grenades on to the level above the Kra'Vak (effectively leap frogging
them) so that it will bring the solid alien building materials down on their
heads. This is best done remotely or as part of an organised withdrawal as it
does run the risk of bringing the entire structure down on your own heads.
If a building that has been taken or is being cleared contains a basement
level and the building has been rated as a structure to maintain intact, set
chemical charges to clear the basement area of all life. In cases where the
building is not to be kept set charges both above and below the ground floor
so that all floors of the building are collapsed and no refuges are created
below ground when the building drops.
7. Demolition Practices and Teams
To prevent a shortage of engineers and pioneer teams holding up the
advance, mix E/P troopers in with standard infantry shock groups. The
ratio of about 1:4 has been found to be effective. The E/P will prepare
and activate the charges, three of the infantry men will act as escort and
protection and the fourth will carry the SAW and cover the entire group.
Charge setting can be hard to determine, but it is a strong recommendation to
set overly large charges in preference to under strength ones. Bringing down a
building in this conflict is not a problem as the houses reduced to such fine
rubble do not form a significant obstacle for our GEV and grav vehicles, in
fact they open up alternative pathways through the city, without being
constrained to the main thoroughfares. Foot troops will find it an
inconvenience, but not as much as being confronted by a Kra'Vak warrior that
has secreted it self in an incorrectly or incompletely demolished building.
8. Relief of Units
It is recommended that the relief of forward companies only be carried out
during daylight hours. There are two reasons for this. First and
foremost the Kra'Vak are nocturnal. All non-combat oriented human
activity is significantly easier in full daylight as there is much lower
levels of Kra'Vak interference. Advantageously, the daylight cycling of
reinforcements allows for the new troops to familiarise themselves with the
route taken to their new position. Going forward through basements,
holes in walls, skirting buildings and half-demolished walls can
severally disorient troops even when using full night vision suits and
equipment. If troops can be brought forward during they day they have a
greater sense of their position and orientation and can more intelligently
apply doctrine and anticipate the direction of enemy activities.
9. Surveillance plots
Aerial surveillance plots are typically in great demand. It is imperative that
it is remembered they are only part of the picture. Even the most detailed 3D
coverage will not pick up all Kra'Vak units. Treat all areas within at least 3
kilometres (if not further) of the Kra'Vak line as still containing hidden
enemy troops, even if they are marked as clear. Moreover it is critical that
only plots created from data that is less than 36 hours old be treated with
any degree of trust, everything older than that must be discarded as
unreliable. The Kra'Vak have exceptional flexibility and manoeuvrability. They
also use decoys
(including physical dummies, bot-based mannequins and holo displays) to
spoof human electronic data collectors. Daily information, where possible
verified by eye, should be the only data used to furnish information
concerning buildings yet to be taken versus buildings clear and in human
control.
10. Principles of Street Fighting
The first rule is to attack at every opportunity and from the least likely
direction. If it is possible to isolate small sections of the area to be
cleared do so. Keep this area pinned using a holding (often reserve) group
while storm troops work around to the rear.
While attacks must be speedy and well coordinated do not rush. Panic and
unthinking haste lead to lethal missteps. Street fighting against the Kra'Vak
requires the greatest levels of physical exertion. Bots must be a coordinated
part of the rapid clearance methods or dangers will be missed. However the
painstaking lengths of time spent clearing buildings under conventional
doctrine can not be used against the Kra'Vak, as it provides time for the
alien troopers to enter their beserker state. While we need to be equally sure
we have thoroughly searched and cleared a building we have to use the
speediest means possible of doing this. While supplies last this means heavy
reliance will need to be laid on bots. Microscopic surveillance bots are the
only feasible way of searching every room and crevice in a building in the
three minute window that marks a successful mission from a blown event. Once
an area is owned demolish every sewer and other potential pathway to ensure
the sector is actually thoroughly mopped up and secure. This will pay untold
dividends in terms of future security.
Wreckage and rubble is a friend to foot troops during street fighting. Whether
facing Kra'Vak warriors on foot or their heavily armoured grav war machines
stay hidden as much as possible in behind rubble until the enemy is directly
in your line of fire, which often means they will
almost be right on top of you. Where possible, booby-trap open transport
routes as this means neither side can make use of them at top speed (though it
is unlikely to completely close them to grav and GEV traffic). It will at the
very least make it difficult for enemy vehicles already committed to a battle
to move easily or retreat.
As with human vehicles Kra'Vak vehicles are weakest from side or rear, but
especially from underneath. Try and attack the alien tanks from below.
Obviously lying in the street will simply get you mown down (either by fire or
the tank's pressure field), but the careful use of upward firing explosives
can cripple a Kra'Vak armoured advance. Also catching them from the side in
the tight confines of the city streets is a solid tactic. Blowing walls out
once the nose is past so that the weaker side armour is accessible is an
effective approach.
Shoot as often as possible without endangering the other members of your
group. The extensive use of grenades and plasma is encouraged. It is advised
that no soldier should enter previously held enemy territory without first
throwing a grenade or subjecting the room to plasma scouring. Advances further
than a grenade or charge can be thrown with any degree of accuracy are
strongly discouraged. As mentioned above
gratuitous rubble is not a problem in city-based engagements with the
Kra'Vak, in fact it can work to humanity's advantage.
The Kra'Vak will primarily attack by night. When initiating attacks we should
attack by day. This means dedicated resting and rotation of troops will be
necessary to avoid exhaustion setting in and debilitating the fighting forces.
It is imperative though that round the clock pressure be maintained as it is
hoped that the alien forces suffer as badly when sleep deprived as humans do.
11. Vehicles (Tanks) in City Fighting
When approaching a Kra'Vak owned city run DNA saturated bots through the local
area. This gruesome and almost unholy act is the only way of clearing the
immense species discriminating minefields the Kra'Vak lay around all their
settlements. Without this precautionary measure attacking forces will be
crippled by losses to mines and hindered by associated road blocks. Infantry
should not be allowed to overtake the tanks in an advance nor should the tanks
allow themselves to be separated from their infantry support by city edge
defences. As in entirely human conflicts, units that bypass enemy defences and
move too far out ahead of the body of the assault will become subject to
intense (and quite effective) fire. Moreover they can not return fire with the
bypassed enemy without running the risk of endangering friendly troops.
An effective means of advance once within the outskirts of a city held
by the Kra'Vak is to have a core of tanks that act as a direct-fire
base, with lighter more mobile units moving a little wide in wedges (if
attacking a large city) or circling the edges of the built up areas to attack
from the flank, if the town is of more modest proportions. If multiple streets
or pathways are accessible then parallel attacks should be executed. As common
sense dictates narrow streets, on which only the leading tank can be employed,
should be avoided at all costs.
Infantry are most effectively employed within a cityscape if they are
dismounted. It is not an absolute requirement for them to precede vehicles
into built up areas, but they should remain abreast (or right behind) the
tanks in order to provide protection against enemy infantry.
Just as infantry have been instructed to rely heavily upon grenades, tank
crews should likewise consider their usefulness. It has been found that
grenades can be lobbed from tank hatches through windows causing damage and
havoc within without anybody leaving the safety of the vehicle or wasting
ammunition trying to risk a solid main gun shot at such close quarters. If
tanks have small scale plasma cannons or the heavier types of machine gun
fitted in their mounts then they may also find these useful weapons for
clearing of floors with good views of the tank's body or top. Use of smaller
secondary weapons in this way also poses much less of a danger of friendly
fire for escorting infantry.
In positions where a tank is expected to be stationary for extended periods of
time it is best to camouflage it by locating it within a building. Engineers
and pioneers should be asked to blow holes in a rear wall (or dozers used to
create such holes) so that the vehicles can be run inside. Apertures for gun
barrels should be created by individually employing small contact explosives
that create neat holes in the wall closest to the enemy. Gapping holes created
through the unthinking use of more intense explosives are of little use as
they leave too much room for incoming fire and provide little effective
protection.
MAK remains the ordinance type of choice against vehicles within a city and in
some cases for building demolition; otherwise HEF is the best option. It has
been found that an effective use of HEF can be made by employing delayed
fuses. With these in place the aim is then to `skip' the rounds to within a
few metres of the enemy positions. In this way entire intersections or street
crossing can be caught up in a single shot.
> On 1/23/07, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:
OK, I just couldn't resist this...
Organization:
If you can find a junior grade officer who can handle six (??) subunits, even
with a good NCO, and even before you start attaching
folks to him, you are damn lucky. There's a reason 3-5 is an
invariable rule for subunits at low level, where there is no time for staff
planning processes.
Besides, six squads? Why not give up and say 'nothing lower than a company'?
That's only 9 rifle squads plus support assets.
> 2. Zones of Unit Action
WTF is a shock group going to do with sniper rifles and GMS/P?? SMGs,
PPIGs, and IVARs make sense. The absolute worst possible weapons for
street fighting are sniper rifles, followed closely by long-range
antiarmor weapons.
Snipers support assaults, they don't participate in them.
There's an excellent scene in Blackhawk Down which shows what happens
when snipers get involved in close-range fighting with masses of
folks.
> distance to discern the troops and bring down very deadly fire. When
Which requires heavy weapons and gives away tactical surprise. 12 gauge slugs
will take locks off doors no matter what species builds them.
> When moving about in open ground or over rubble, keep low. The crouch
Open ground, at point blank? Lots of supressive fire and a dead sprint.
Lowcrawl across open ground and you are dead.
> 6. Entering and Clearing Buildings
Crap. Top-down. Gravity works for you. Stairways are lethally
dangerous going up.
> regard for infrastructure and at the earliest suggestion of movement
How do you get grenades through two floors? I'm confused. If the KV are going
to blow the building, they have demolitions placed. In that case, slam a
couple HE rounds into the building and beat them to the punch.
> Charge setting can be hard to determine, but it is a strong
I'm baffled by this. Obviously the writer has never seen ruined building. Fine
rubble?
> Shoot as often as possible without endangering the other members of
I'm baffled as to how it works to the human advantage. Allegedly the KraVak
have all sorts of experience and 'know all the tricks'... They have Grav Tanks
and no compunction about knocking down buildings, further they are the
defenders from the tone of this piece, yet they don't know how to take
advantage of rubble?
> 11. Vehicles (Tanks) in City Fighting
Honestly, I'd think if they react to DNA, then the easiest way to do it would
be to spray a solution from small flying drones. And easier on the drones.
> separated from their infantry support by city edge defences. As in
Yeah, just ask Georgie Patton how well 'haul ass and bypass' works.
G'day John,
Chuikov (of Stalingrad fame) managed it so who am I to argue?;)
Beth
[quoted original message omitted]
Of course there are some doctrinal differences between East and West in
regards to acceptable casualties.
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn.com
[quoted original message omitted]
Someone should have told that to Douglas Haig...
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
http://lists.csua.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn 1/24/07, Robert
> N Bryett <rbryett@gmail.com> wrote:
Heh. I think the unspoken rider on any discussion of cultural attitudes toward
casualties is "the First World War doesn't count"...
Beth - awesome set of fiction. Was there a specific map of Mars you've
been working from? I've found a couple of versions of 'terraformed Mars' maps
online, and of course there's the maps in KSR's Red/Green/Blue Mars
trilogy. Got an online version of your base map?
Of course, my interest is in the areas that're still the most "martian"
-
cold, red & dusty, with air you can't breathe or operate a GEV in! I guess
that makes me a Red...
The Old Crow vehicles I'm currently painting up are going to be Martian
-
from some of the independant city states up on the Noctis Labyrinthus plateau,
west of Marineris & east of the three great volcanoes. Of course, there's also
all that cold high ground in the southern half of the Southern Hemisphere,
too...
G'day guys,
Now I'm back in the land of real email I thought I'd finish off the reply.
> Organization:
Like I said that was Chuikov's idea not mine;)
> WTF is a shock group going to do with sniper rifles and GMS/P??
Again Chukiov's suggestion, but not so that they fought with the assault, but
so they could go on rapid detachment and do what snipers do best in those
situations, which is basically recon via mobile stalks,
plus covering routes of approach/exit and even act as spotters to call
in heavy support. Mark Spicer (15+ year sniper veteran in the UK army,
as well as instructor for both the Brits and US Marine Corp) also points out
their usefulness in such roles in a bunch of essays on the topic and touches
on them (though lightly) in his book "Sniper" published by Salamander Books.
> Which requires heavy weapons and gives away tactical surprise.
Given I know a bunch of marine species where that doesn't even hold on Earth,
I don't mind saying what I did re Kra'Vak locks too even if it doesn't make
sense for us today. I was trying (maybe failing) to get
across the idea that the cost-risk analysis may change with alien
adversaries. Somethings will stay the same some will change. Maybe I guessed
wrong, but so far it worked in the games;)
> Open ground, at point blank? Lots of supressive fire and a dead
Again relying on reports and advise from veterans of Stalingrad, maybe because
it was slippery or something in all the winter ice, but a whole bunch of them
talk about preferring to slide belly first over rubble than to risk running.
> Crap. Top-down. Gravity works for you.
This one I played with based on the German/Allied preference to enter
anywhere and Chuikov's for going in low. I was also rationalising it away on
the fictional assumption Kra'Vak stairways may not resemble ours
;)
> How do you get grenades through two floors? I'm confused.
I'm guessing through windows, again this was Chuikov's advise, something the
Germans say the Russians did unnervingly well.
> If the KV are going to blow the building, they have demolitions
Ok this is probably my fault for playing with WWII material, as they were low
on ammo and didn't want to bring down too many buildings as rubble was a pain
for them (well some of them, others loved it).
> I'm baffled by this. Obviously the writer
This one was adapted from recommendations published in the U.S. Department of
War WWII "Combat Lessons" Series and US veteran reports. All I can guess (and
what I imagined) was that the vets were talking about rubble that was fist
sized or brick sized rather than half wall sized.
> I'm baffled as to how it works to the human advantage. Allegedly
The bigger tanks were having trouble fitting down the rubble strewn streets in
the game, so we decided that was one trick the humans were allowed to be a bit
further ahead on. We didn't want it too much in one direction;)
> Honestly, I'd think if they react to DNA, then the easiest way to do
You could well be right and that may turn up in a later piece (with due
credit), but for now they're just learning. The date stamps on the pieces show
they've been in this kind of fight with the Kra'Vak under a month and a half
at this point. Based on the speed in development of doctrine in WWII there is
a lot of learning to be done.
Cheers
> On 1/28/07, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:
> Like I said that was Chuikov's idea not mine ;)
*shrug* Sovs had a shortage of officers in the worst way, I think he was
making do with what he had. If you have very few capable platoon leaders and
good company commanders, that might be a way to work it. Sovs also had fairly
simplistic and uncomplicated tactics that didn't depend on many decisions
being made at low levels.
> > WTF is a shock group going to do with sniper rifles and GMS/P??
OK, that wasn't clear. The wording sounded like they were taking part in close
assaults.
> > Open ground, at point blank? Lots of supressive fire and a dead
Also a shortage of automatic weapons besides SMGs.:) Also you said open
ground, which didn't make me think 'covered in rubble'. That depends on the
size of the rubble.
> > If the KV are going to blow the building, they have demolitions
You're also coming close to raising the question of 'why bother going into the
town at all'? I mean, if the KV are going to defend like lunatics and rig most
buildings for demo, then you don't get anything out of it. Everyone I've ever
read on the subject agrees that going into Stalingrad was a mistake. Cutting
off urban areas and letting them die on the vine is the way to go if your
opponent is going to turn every single one into a fortress anyway.
> > I'm baffled by this. Obviously the writer
Depends on building materials. Remember where the US fought. Most of the
ruined building I've seen have been slammed with a tank main gun round or
three, or even a bomb, and havn't been wiped out completely. The Iraqis build
with poured concrete. From the description of the heavy construction materials
in the rest of the piece, that's what I was imagining the KV using rather than
wooden frame buildings with drywall for the interiors.
You're also contradicting the point above about not wanting to bring down
buildings as rubble...
> > I'm baffled as to how it works to the human advantage. Allegedly
.
> > They have Grav Tanks and no compunction about knocking down
I'm looking at Monte Cassino here. Yes, rubble chokes off maneuver. But if you
are the defender, and primarily using infantry, then you aren't doing diddly
for maneuver anyway. You can set up fields of fire with heavy weapons in 2nd
and 3rd story positions and kill folks who are held up in the rubble. It also
makes for good positions for snipers and machine guns to shoot from ambush.
> You could well be right and that may turn up in a later piece (with
Lots of things move faster than WWII these days.:)
JohnA said:
> You're also coming close to raising the question of 'why bother going
That point occurred to me also. If between you and the KV, you're going to
rubble the city, then why not drop a nuke, or a few FAEs, and do it all at
once? Sending the infantry in has the advantage of being thorough, but it's
expensive in terms of manpower, materiel, and time.
G'day,
> *shrug* Sovs had a shortage of officers in the worst way,
While not quite as bad as for Chuikov that's what I'm trying to press for here
too. The GZG timeline makes it clear a bunch of stuff is tied up in the outer
colonies and I've tried to imply a bunch is tied up on Earth. So while there
is a lot of troops on Mars and its still early on we don't have a lot of
luxury in what's available. I know the media reports don't paint it that way,
but that's intentional so that there are still surprises in store for those
caught up by the media reports.
> Also you said open ground, which didn't make me think
I think by the time the notes I was cribbing from Stalingrad's open ground was
all rubble;)
As to the line in question, I dropped the or so it says "When moving about in
open ground over rubble"
> You're also coming close to raising the question of
Simple matter is despite the fact for centuries people have known going in to
a city is bad we still do it. That's not going to end by the GZGverse for two
reasons. For one on a terraformed planet like Mars, even if smashed up the
crater and ravine cities are still the most habitable bits so getting in and
rooting around, even with compromised
domes is better than making the place completely unihabitable - humans
still want to live there afterwards. The place is also riddled with human
tunnels let alone whatever the Kra'Vak have so the humans have to make sure
the job is done and pockets don't remain to kick out at them
later - no stone left unturned mentality. Basically they have to (even
putting aside that people will want to because of the meaning of it).
Second, and most importantly for us, it makes a fun game.
> Depends on building materials. Remember where the US fought.
Good point. Hadn't thought about that.
> You're also contradicting the point above about
In the fictional text they don't care, it was in reality that they didn't want
to because it was a problem. No contradiction just two different settings;)
> I'm looking at Monte Cassino here. Yes, rubble chokes off maneuver.
The Kra'Vak don't want too many infantry battles as they have a more
limited stock of bodies to call on ultimately - that's why the player
here wanted to use bigger weapons and more vehicles (the human players weren't
told of the restrictions and had to figure that for themselves). End result KV
player wanted to get more into DS games and even in SG wanted his big tanks in
there to make things tough for the infantry. Human decisions and a few bad
rools meant it didn't go his way. Part of
the fun of playing it out is some people/aliens make mistakes, leads to
some interesting (and unscheduled) plot points.
> Lots of things move faster than WWII these days. :)
True, want to hazard a guess at how fast we'd learn how to beat an alien?;)
G'day Brian,
> Beth - awesome set of fiction.
Thanks
> Was there a specific map of Mars you've been working from?
Yep. The one up on our website (see my other post on the front of Watcher for
the directions of how to get there). The Orduna street map isn't finished up
yet, but the general mars map we're using in the campaign is.
> Of course, my interest is in the areas that're still the most
There's more of tat now than there was before the Kra'Vak arrived. Olympus
Mons would still be you're kind of area regardless and the other big chain of
mountains (you can see them in the photo under the
UN/Japanese naval ritual in the photo article).
> The Old Crow vehicles I'm currently painting up are going to be
Cool! Ahh in more ways than one it seems;)
> In 1/29/07, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:
> Simple matter is despite the fact for centuries people have known
We generally do it because we want to control the population living in the
cities. That doesn't apply when attempting to commit genocide on aliens.
But even when we wish to control the cities, we don't wish to fight major
battles in them.
> GZGverse for two reasons. For one on a terraformed planet like Mars,
I'd be thinking on letting the KraVak starve. Even if you don't nuke 'em, you
can ignore the strongholds and fight in an open war of maneuver. You aren't
rebuiliding those habitats any time in the near
future. Non-persistant Nerve Gas or some KV-specific bugs might also
be a better idea than little dudes with rifles.
> Second, and most importantly for us, it makes a fun game.
Well, yes.
> The Kra'Vak don't want too many infantry battles as they have a more
If the intent of the street fights is to grind up trained troops
faster than the KV can replace them, by putting expendable/replacable
human troops into deliberately high-casualty fights, then it makes
sense.
> From a politician's standpoint, not a buck sergeant's.
> > Lots of things move faster than WWII these days. :)
Depends on who is doing the learning, and how responsive your equipment
development cycle is to field feedback.
I've seen a lot of new toys get fielded in the past 4 years, and TTPs change
on a regular basis. Same for Mr.Hajj.
G'day,
> I'd be thinking on letting the KraVak starve.
Assuming there isn't sufficient resources in the city to maintain themselves.
I'd say there probably isn't, though I hadn't said eitehr
way as yet as we're not 100% sure we know what Kra'Vak eat on Mars -
though we do at least know they're not photosynethetic;)
> Even if you don't nuke 'em, you can ignore the strongholds
For the uneducated in the audience (namely me) how do you do that in this
situation? All the bits worth having (including the production
sites are all in the "built-up" areas) the plains are only just ticking
over and beyond mines there is little out there so I'm not sure what you'd
gain.
> You aren't rebuiliding those habitats any time in the near future.
The only stuff I've allowed so far is of minimal effect - arguing we
don't know enough about KV physiology. That approach may increase into the
future, but for now we do't know enough I'd say (based on the nod nod wink
wink level of information UNDIA seems to know in FB2 and pieces like Karla's
Kidnap). Bottom line we don't got no chice right now;)
> If the intent of the street fights is to grind up trained troops
That was the idea we were working on.
> Depends on who is doing the learning, and how responsive your
Who learns fastest/slowest?
There is some capability of production and development on Mars so what levels
are needed? What's a TTP and what's a regular basis?
Cheers
> On 1/30/07, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:
> Assuming there isn't sufficient resources in the city to maintain
I'm pretty sure that even if they can eat the canned goods in human cities,
they will run out and likely didn't bring many farmers.
> > Depends on who is doing the learning, and how responsive your
The folks with the greatest incentive to learn--those loosing folks
fastest.
> There is some capability of production and development on Mars so what
Depends. You want to change tanks, it takes a lot more than to make silly
string to look for tripwires.
> What's a TTP and what's a regular basis?
TTP Tactics, Techniques, Procedures.
No comment.
G'day,
> I'm pretty sure that even if they can eat the canned goods in human
Based on this comment I don't think my fiction has made something clear (or as
clear as I had hoped), the only good agricultural land (the
"agri-centres") are associated with the settlements. The open areas on
Mars don't yet support Terran agriculture and I hadn't thought they would
support Kra'Vak either, though it is a possibility I could write in in the
future if it worked better that way.
> Depends. You want to change tanks, it takes a lot more than
Ok. What time are you talking about for major equipment?
> TTP Tactics, Techniques, Procedures.
Thanks.
> No comment.
Ok understandable, is there a historical resource any one on the lift knows of
that could help on that topic?
Cheers
> On 1/30/07, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:
> > I'm pretty sure that even if they can eat the canned goods in human
Ah. You also have to realize I don't read all the fiction, the title of this
one caught my eye. Limited internet time.:) Now I'm thinking that you almost
could consider all of Mars as an urban area. Take and hold the spaceports,
throw up a blockade, and starve the little bastards out. Presuming, of course,
that you can get your fleet to do that. And if you can't, then you likely
can't supply a massive ground assault safely either.
> > Depends. You want to change tanks, it takes a lot more than
Depends on a lot of things. If you can buy off-the-shelf, it's a lot
easier. For instance, from the first few IEDs to the procurement of the first
Buffalos was something like a year or so, but this is a vehicle already in
production that just needed to be purchased and shipped to theater.
Historically, the Germans got from PzKfw IV As to IV Ms in 5 years or
so. . .
> Ok understandable, is there a historical resource any one on the lift
Look at the hedgerow fighting--how long did it take to go from never
having seen a hedgerow to having worked out multiple battledrills and
a field-improvised piece of equipment that could clear them quickly
and efficiently. That's what I mean by TTPs.
G'day,
> Ah. You also have to realize I don't read all the fiction,
Ok.
> Now I'm thinking that you almost could consider all of Mars as an
In case you're interested here's the breakdown.
11 years ago (2185) the Kra'Vak get serious and UN declares war, about a year
later is the first ground engagement which doesn't go well for humanity. In
fact no ground offensives do until Rheinhold and that seems to be the
exception, usually we have to beat them in space before they touch down
2 years ago (2194) the Kra'Vak make it to the Sol system and begin the "seige
of sol"
Ok that's all canon and where I started
Now as part of the seige there is a showdown around Mars where they land an
invasion force (which may or may not have been intended for Earth originally).
Humans are a bit tied up getting from Earth and they're engaged in orbit
around Mars and so the kra'Vak get down and take over a sector of the planet
before numbers kick in and humans can pen them off (or the kravak think they
have enough space for now, either way they get a toehold but not the entire
planet)
Kravak are happy to use ortillery which undoes century plus of terraforming
advances so only decent atmopshere is back to being in the domes, humans can't
survive longterm in the open without big help. The KraVak have enough space to
go into major construction (mining and construciton is ok beyond human bounds
so more on the plain than typical for human settlements but there is no
evidence they can grow stuff out there, humans certainly can't so there could
be a good chance KV can't either)
Now two years later humans have finally got Mars' orbit back, though Earth is
still under seige so no chance of much help from their, stuff is trickling
through but its not the major flood they need. Effectively Humans on Mars can
really only rely on what's on Mars (stuff beyond sol is even more questionable
source than from Earth). Kra'vak can self supply on the planet (industrious
little beavers they are) and humans can't just "nuke" them from orbit because
not only do they want the land back (for painful sentimental reasons) but the
environment can't take it.
End result, if humans want them out we have to get in there on a more personal
level. Lets just say to make the game fun and challenging I chucked them a few
curve balls to ensure life ain't simple;)
> Depends on a lot of things. If you can buy off-the-shelf, it's a lot
Ok both are possible given on the one hand length of engagement on Mars and on
the other the total length of time the Xenowar has been running.
> Look at the hedgerow fighting--how long did it take to go from never
Thanks. The one to two momths it took to beat the bocage was what I had
pegged as reasonably-moderately fast learning given it took longer to
adapt in other situations. I figured that spread would be ok for a fight with
a whole different species (I haven't seen a faster learning curve in the
publically available docs, but that doesn't mean faster curves don't exist in
stuff I can't access).
Cheers
Try "Closing with the Enemy" by Michael Doubler. It based mostly on the US
Army in WW-II, but has some interesting things to say about how Doctrine
is developed and implemented.
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn.com
Ok understandable, is there a historical resource any one on the lift knows of
that could help on that topic?
Cheers
Beth
> On Jan 30, 2007, at 12:34 AM, <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:
> For the uneducated in the audience (namely me) how do you do that in
You gain control of the ground...highway systems....rail, etc.
What is better? Having 100% control of a city or control of the infrastructure
forming the connective tissue between that one city and all the others around
it?
Damo
G'day,
> You gain control of the ground...highway systems....rail, etc.
And in the case of Mars loads and loads of rocks;)
> What is better? Having 100% control of a city or control of the
Humans want both, they don't want Kra'Vak having either because they don't
want them coming back out of a pocket they have surrounded. I also mentioned
that Kra'Vak use grav pretty much exclusively so you have to shut down the
entire 3D area between the cities. I'm probably being thick (or exasperating
or both) but it still seems to me if there was an alien threat that wasn't
bound to transport goods on the 2D road network humans tend to use that the
human command would want to take the cities and the bits in between not just
one or the other.
Cheers
It sounds like it would be very difficult to establish a 3D quarantene zone
around a city.
Also there are extensive tunnels and mines that could run under the cities and
out into the wilderness areas.
While the KV are occupying a city where are the humans living? Are there
bubble dome refugee camps?
I imagine assaulting a dome city would be very difficult there would only be
few entry points. You could make more but that would involve wrecking the
dome. A domed city with each building or city block built as its own dome
connected by transit tunnels would almost be worse. Each dome would have to be
individually assaulted with limited entry points.
If the KV have lost orbit control and can't grow their own food, their
longterm position sounds untennable. The would need hundreds of tonnes of food
and water per day to keep going (as would the humans). Where does all this
come from for both sides?
> On Jan 31, 2007, at 4:29 PM, <john_tailby@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> It sounds like it would be very difficult to establish a 3D
Air superiority isn't that hard to attain is it? I mean a combatant will only
have so many lifters correct? I think much of this conversation would
presuppose that air superiority has been attained...at least for the most
part.
Damo
G'day guys,
This seems to have only gone to John so am reposting here.
> It sounds like it would be very difficult to
It is if you're still fighting over the area, at least that's what the gamers
here have found, if you own the airspace over a fairly well held area then its
an easier proposition.
> While the KV are occupying a city where are the humans living? Are
There are military camps - in the south these are semi-permanent, in the
north they are temporary, moving with the front. As to civilians (the refugees
you mention), there are no humans left in the KV owned areas, they either left
or died two years ago in the timeline (during the initial invasion). The only
humans in the area are the cranky bastards coming to get the Kra'Vak off their
land;)
<Though this doesn't preculde some kind of hidden guerilla residence force if
I can figure out how to make it work story wise or if one of
the human players asks about it - I like to keep campaigns fluid, if
they're smart enough to ask then I worry about whether I can make it work or
not>
> I imagine assaulting a dome city would be very difficult there would
> as its own dome connected by transit tunnels would almost be worse.
The domes as we've protrayed are fairly large (cover small town or pockets of
larger settlements), so not 1000s of domes to crack, but a few to 10s per
settlement. As the miltary has "rebreathers" and the Kra'Vak tendrils which
help them in the thin atmospere neither side has been averse to cracking a
dome here or there to help access, but they have by and large avoided all out
destruction of them (as it costs a bit to rebuild the pylon infrastructrure in
campaign terms).
> If the KV have lost orbit control and can't grow their own food, their
> longterm position sounds untennable. The would need hundreds of tonnes
> of food and water per day to keep going (as would the humans). Where
The KV are effectively self sufficient on the planet (at a push they can even
be sufficient enough that seiges would drag on a loooong time, like in the
days of walled cities with good internal wells). Having the fleet in orbit was
just a nice way of covering their butts and helping push the humans back. They
do not need it for food resupply, they can get by without it (to a point) as
far as material resupply is necessary (vehicles etc are being made on the
ground on Mars). Its mainly the problem of attrition, without a link back out
to space they don't have an endless supply of troops.
As for the humans they're supplied by logistic trains feeding back to the rest
of Mars. Its really only a fairly small area that has been taken by the
Kra'Vak (about 2 million sq km, which is about a quarter of the land area of
the USA). One the humans want to snuff out quite desperately, but its nothing
like the "loss of worlds" you get the feeling is happening amongst the rim
worlds.
Cheers
G'day John,
> I imagined that the martian cities would develop a bit
That's what I thought too. Though ravines may be simpler as can do bigger
pockets at a time maybe as only covering a roof, the walls pretty much taking
care of themselves (depending on soil prosity I guess).
> I'd also imagine that life in
The earlier domes definitely, though with time you might see more zoning like
what you see in modern cities (maybe).
> Does this mean that the KV have gotten significant industrial
I had said yes.
> The identification and elimination of these facilities
We have plans for some ideas for FMA games where you have to penetrate and
destroy some key facilities.
> It also sounds like there is an upper limit on weaponry that you could
Yep. I want to do (but not sure if I can successfully pull off) some articles
where there is a discussion over the political tension of walking up to the
line (above which the big bombs do too much damage to the environment) and
tettering on the edge as they play off environmental damage vs alien menace.
> On Pychology, can you pressurise them sufficiently that groups of them
That is something else to play with, but the evolutionary ecologist in me
wants to see it done carefully as just having preds that go nuts when under
pressure would have seen them die out a long long long time ago.
Cheers