I started with the Rogue Trader days. Built squat forces in 25mm and later,
when epic came out with the 5 figure square bases built a large force of
squats for that. I have somewhere around 100 figures for 40k with scratch
built and kitbashed vehicles from the GW line of vehicles. (I even kitbashed a
TOC version of the Rhino.)
Naturally as things were dropped it got harder to go to tournaments and
successfully fight a battle since I had NO "fancy" hero figures and often time
tournaments were stacked towards the newer codex.
Epic was more interesting for longer with the large amount of squat specific
machines and figures (not just bikers and infantry). I have at last count 2
land trains with additional cars, something like 8 of the super heavy squat
vehicles (leviathans, collossi and cyclops), 2 bike squadrons, 1 gyrocopter
squadron, a squadron of airships, the heavy artillery, mole mortars and hordes
of infantry mounted on rhinos, land raiders and on foot. I think I could lay
down nearly 15,000 points of figures all told (plus some Space marine and Imp
Guard allies at another 3000 pts or so). Then, GW when and changed the rules
utterly for how 'Epic' Worked. Changed the rules so frontage required 5 figure
line bases for infantry and didn't update the squat rules for the new system.
And a number of other changes and no squats as I recall. So, I bailed from the
game.
With the lack of even a basic codex for squats in 40k and Epic, I was utterly
through with spending money. It didn't help that I remembered buying the box
set of 3 Rhinos for $25 when now, the same exact simple injection moulded
model cost what, $50 for 1?
I more or less got disgusted with the whole hobby for a time, then a few years
later found Dirtside, and it satisfied my desire for GOOD solid wargaming.
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n, I played that same edition of epic. The problem I found was that some of
the points sytems for the units were really out of balance. Too many of the
units used special rules, a fault of several GW games at that time, such that
the units that used the basic rules were in the minority. I didn't make the
transition to the epic 40,000 edition, I got more into 40k about that time. As
I understand it it wasn't compulsary to have the basis on the strips and the
square bases would work just as well. The new Rhino kit is a substantially
better kit than the old one. It is a lot more detailed and comes with a host
of accessories. I remember when GW figures came 5 in a blister for 2.50 pounds
call that 20 years ago. Inflation would roughly double that price in todays
dollars. What would you rather have 10 figures that are moulded lumps of lead,
weapons welded to bodies, little ability to pose and convert or 10 multipart
plastic kits with plenty of posability, alternate weapon options and far more
detail and 3d aspects. Is it worth more to pay for better models? I never
liked the Squat models or Dwarfs for WFB either, sort and bearded isn't
anything I identify with, so I wasn't impacted to the same as you when GW
stopped supporting the Squat race. Loyal Squat fans have never let them
forget their decision to cease development for squats and it's become a
sort of an urban legend at every convention presentation they give for someone
to as about squats. While your tale is a valid cautionary one, it highlights
an event that happened once over 10 years ago. About the same time GW
simplified the game and dropped support for some units like the Imperial
robots. So there's no guarantee that every unit will have special rules
forever. However there's quite often an alternate unit whose rules you can
use. I think GW made an unpopular change in the nature of the Chaos armies
recently. As frustrating as some of GWs decisions are from time to time, worse
things have happened to me with other games. I had a 25mm Aztec army and a
15mm one for WRG 7th edition ancients. When they changed the rules to DBM
the army I had ceased to exist. I got into Warzone it started out as an
intersting game of corporate war. Then the game imploded models came out with
increasingly stupid rules and increasingly powerful abilites making the
existing models obsolete. Then after released a second edition of the game
they went bankrupt. I bought several fleet boxes of B5 ships from Mongoose.
They are expensive and contained manufacturing flaws. Now Mongoose has pulled
the game and there are no more models or rules. So while it is not very nice
to have the army you collect be oblilterated by a new version fo the rules, GW
are by no means the only culprit in this area. It seems to be a risk of
gaming. The same thing happens in shopping. Buy a suit wear if for 18 months
and go back for a second pair of trousers only to find that model isn't
supported and you can't get a replacement pair to match. Withdrawl of product
support isn't just a GW issue it's a feature of all commercial arrangements.
> John Tailby wrote:
A small correction, Mongoose never pulled the game, A Call To Arms has
remained in print. Also Mongoose just announced a deal that Iron Wind Metals
will be producing their B5 miniatures for them and they will also probably be
casting the smaller Fleet Action minis too.
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at would you rather have 10 figures that are moulded lumps of lead, weapons
welded to bodies"
Isn't that a description of Historical Miniatures? The "customizing ability"
only really matters in a WYSIWYG environment
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn
From: John Tailby
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:23 AM
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [GZG] GW
Ryan, I played that same edition of epic. The problem I found was that some of
the points sytems for the units were really out of balance. Too many of the
units used special rules, a fault of several GW games at that time, such that
the units that used the basic rules were in the minority.
I didn't make the transition to the epic 40,000 edition, I got more into 40k
about that time. As I understand it it wasn't compulsary to have the basis on
the strips and the square bases would work just as well.
The new Rhino kit is a substantially better kit than the old one. It is a lot
more detailed and comes with a host of accessories. I remember when GW figures
came 5 in a blister for 2.50 pounds call that 20 years ago. Inflation would
roughly double that price in todays dollars.
What would you rather have 10 figures that are moulded lumps of lead, weapons
welded to bodies, little ability to pose and convert or 10 multipart plastic
kits with plenty of posability, alternate weapon options and far more detail
and 3d aspects. Is it worth more to pay for better models?
I never liked the Squat models or Dwarfs for WFB either, sort and bearded
isn't anything I identify with, so I wasn't impacted to the same as you when
GW stopped supporting the Squat race. Loyal Squat fans have never let them
forget their decision to cease development for squats and it's become a sort
of an urban legend at every convention presentation they give for someone to
as about squats.
While your tale is a valid cautionary one, it highlights an event that
happened once over 10 years ago. About the same time GW simplified the game
and dropped support for some units like the Imperial robots. So there's no
guarantee that every unit will have special rules forever. However there's
quite often an alternate unit whose rules you can use.
I think GW made an unpopular change in the nature of the Chaos armies
recently.
As frustrating as some of GWs decisions are from time to time, worse things
have happened to me with other games. I had a 25mm Aztec army and a 15mm one
for WRG 7th edition ancients. When they changed the rules to DBM the army I
had ceased to exist.
I got into Warzone it started out as an intersting game of corporate war. Then
the game imploded models came out with increasingly stupid rules and
increasingly powerful abilites making the existing models obsolete. Then after
released a second edition of the game they went bankrupt.
I bought several fleet boxes of B5 ships from Mongoose. They are expensive and
contained manufacturing flaws. Now Mongoose has pulled the game and there are
no more models or rules.
So while it is not very nice to have the army you collect be oblilterated by a
new version fo the rules, GW are by no means the only culprit in this area. It
seems to be a risk of gaming.
The same thing happens in shopping. Buy a suit wear if for 18 months and go
back for a second pair of trousers only to find that model isn't supported and
you can't get a replacement pair to match.
Withdrawl of product support isn't just a GW issue it's a feature of all
commercial arrangements.
I enjoy customizing and posing them so that they look like a coherent unit
rather than a rank of identical twins. Also, so that they fit the background I
have carefully crafted for them.
Give GW their due-- their figures are well-sculpted, well-cast, and
usually great to pose and customize.
Robert Mayberry
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Michael <mwsaber6@msn.com> wrote:
Then
> after released a second edition of the game they went bankrupt.
> At 7:23 PM +1000 7/10/08, John Tailby wrote:
I'll respond on the base point. I'd have b een happy if they'd maintained the
ocdex, updated any stats for the new rule and maybe come out with something
every couple of months or even once a year just to put something new for the
squats out. I dragged my figures out last night just to get a good idea on
what I actually had. I was never disappointed with the detail on the early
squats that were possible nor was I unhappy with the ones that were fixed. I
actually managed to kitbash and modify a number of figures to equip them with
power gloves and other such things.
I was actually VERY happy with the Epic squat figures, character and function.
In 40K it was a bit tired but they were still tough. I had a friend at the
time who played chaos marines, World Eaters and the like. The several games we
played, were VERY tough for him in close combat, because normal squats in CC
were enough to HANG on for a turn and drag it out allowing me to pile on other
units to take his close combat units if the dice were with me. For him it was
a VERY near thing. He found living ancestors to be VERY dreadfully tough to
deal with with their 8 toughness.
All I wanted was at a minimum, updated stats and even a basic codex.
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excellent point. GW pulled the Squats because they "couldn't" find a way to
make them work in 40K. A very tired and lame answer if you consider they
already had a perfectly usable version of them to begin with. Squats was my
second army for 40K and I thought their guild mentality and boker cavalry were
the bee's knees. It would not have been a great stretch for GW to have
expanded on these ideas and kept them in the game. I have a feeling that GW
cut them to clean up their product line.
-Eli
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:14 AM, Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I started with the Rogue Trader days. Built squat
I was a big squat fan. I never had more than 50 figures painted, but I liked
them.
I lost interest in 40K about the time 2nd edition came out. I liked Rogue
Trader, but some of the issues with it grated on me. The "move then fire"
sequence had been out of fashion in wargaming since the early 70s. I replaced
the turn sequence with an integrated system similar to Squad Leader, and it
worked better. I didn't like the lack of an opportunity fire rule, so I added
one. (Opportunity fire was added to the game about a year later in the form of
an "overwatch" rule introduced in White Dwarf). It was an enjoyable game at
that point, and I had a number of figures for several armies.
I played by myself or with friends, so I was insulated from most of the GW
issues. By the mid 90s I had discovered SG2 and started playing that (with my
40K miniatures). What forced me out of the "Games Workshop Hobby" were the
prices. That and the fact that I couldn't get any more squats. So, I sold off
my 40K miniatures once I had enough GZG figures to replace them. (I'm still
sad that I sold my Warhammer fantasy figures, since I had a few dwarves
painted and could play them with my son now.)
I still have a lot of the plastic Space Marine figures, and I still have the
old Space Marine game. I thought 2nd edition Space Marine was a step in the
wrong direction, as it seemed to clutter the game system from what was a
pretty smooth, if simple game. I plan to use the tons
of plastic figures for DS2/DS3 at some point.
Looking back, I was never as immersed in GW as others of my age group,
probably because I didn't live in a major city at the time. I did like a
number of their board games, and I'm happy to see that the more interesting
ones are republished by Fantasy Flight Games.
I liked the look of Warhammer 3rd edition. I still have that book. I also have
a few of the historical games. I plan to use them to introduce my 9 year old
into historical gaming when I have enough time to paint some figures...
> At 2:55 PM +0000 7/10/08, emu2020@comcast.net wrote:
My first tournament game, back when the squats were equipped with smoke
grenades and IR goggles, I started tossing grenades first turn. After 1 turn
of all the units that had no easy shots, there was a FOG bank. I then
maintained the fog bank and more or less wiped the floor with my opponent.
There ARE ways to make squats a royal PAIN in the arse.
Something better than Las pistols for close combat troops works REALLY well.
Putting them on light rhinos as organic, would have been pretty ideal I think.
Better heavy weapons would have been good too. I had a ten man unit of heavy
bolters. If they'd made a squat version of the heavy bolter that performed
more like a vickers....well.... That'd have worked well I think.
> Squats was my second army for 40K and I thought their guild mentality
The twin bolter bikes were hard to use on a small board, but the
Multi-Melta equipped trikes were handy though. I did have a problem
where a GM at a tournament allowed an opponent to take firing actions in MY
firing turn because he didn't like the fact the trikes could zip in,
shoot and zip out. This was PRE-overwatch.
> On 7/10/08, Robert Mayberry <robert.mayberry@gmail.com> wrote:
> Give GW their due-- their figures are well-sculpted, well-cast, and
If and only if you LIKE the particular motif of cartoon character that GW
models.
I don't. It's an artistic choice and hence inherently inarguable.
GW's figures are cartoonish, with exaggerated heads, hands, weapons that make
no sense and are out of proportion to both the character and their alleged
game effects, lots of skulls and spikes in places that don't work, random
chains, oversized costuming (shoulder pads, for instance), etc. Their vehicles
are heavily stylized and make no sense either militarily nor mechanically..
If that's what you like, you're welcome to it. But as someone who prefers a
little more plausibility, I'm not required to do so. I do NOT have to give
them anymore credit than to say, "yes, these are technically well cast models,
which means they are highly detailed ugly silly models".
Your mileage may vary--as alway when artistic opinions come into play.
Ryan wrote on 07/10/2008 12:14:38 AM:
> I started with the Rogue Trader days. Built squat
I had a number of the lads when a friend borrowed them, along with several
sprues of figs, which he combined with some Beakies to make buff Squats, if
you can imagine.
As an aside, I'm more of an industrial guy, preferring NIN, but enjoy the
darker parts of the background, when not obviously directed at fourteen year
olds...
> Naturally as things were dropped it got harder to
I've never been that interested in tourneys. I guess not enough killer
instinct. Makes the fanboy aspect harder to take too, though.
> Epic was more interesting for longer with the
Though I never did play much, I did collect the SM/E Squat figs for
awhile. Hey, you've got to occasionally love being the downtrodden.
I'll have to find a place to put piccies of the land train a friend made
for me out of a 1/35 Maus and three 1/35 German Armoured Railway cars.
The V2 looked good, but I couldn't get him to do the crenolations. Maybe if I
take some of the Warhammer Fortresses I've got...
I never did get far on the Capitolis Imperialis from a couple of styro coolers
and a couple of styrene inboxes for track covers.
> With the lack of even a basic codex for squats in
Now you're sounding as old as I; I think they were a bit pricey then, when you
could find small tank models for less than five. You're memory isn't making
allowances for inflation. Also, it's $30US. At least, that's what we're
charging. Still causes me to choke, a bit.
> I more or less got disgusted with the whole hobby
While not a fan of DS, sorry Bill, I can admire it as a solid game. You HAVE
chosen wisely.
Now, I gather we've yet another vote for dropping the thread. May we?
The_Beast
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sider it dropped, for my part, Beastie.
I love to argue, but I'm tired and would love to get on to more topical stuff.
I even posted something new for folks to talk about.
-Eli