I would like to teach my nephews to play Full Thrust. Unfortunately, computer
video games have shortened their attention span. I think the one thing that
will put them off is plotting moves for the individual ships. So, I would like
to introduce houserules that do away with plotting. I recognize that it is
still important to keep track of the previous turn's speed, so I'll make up
some counters to put on each ship's stand to record this.
We'll only be using human Kra'Vak ships.
Looking over the sequence of play, we won't have to worry about Sa'Vasku
power allocations and Phalon Vapour Shroud deployment orders.
I was thinking of dividing the Move Ships phase into 5 segment. Starting with
the player who lost the initiative, a player moves 1 fifth of his ships during
the first segment. This is followed by the other player and so on. If a side
has a number of ships not evenly divisible by 5, then the excess are moved
during the earlier segments. E.g., if I have 18 ships, then I move 4 ships
each during segments 1, 2, and 3, and 3 ships each during segments 4 and 5.
Fighters continue to move according to the normal rules with screening
fighters moving with their charges.
The snag I'm running into is how to deal with Salvo Missiles. These are
normally fired after moves have been plotted, but before ships are moved. I
can see handling this in one of three ways under my new scheme:
Option 1: Alternate firing all salvoes before movement. This retains the need
to predict where the enemy ships are going, but it gives the enemy the
opportunity to dodge or screen the salvoes.
Option 2: Alternate firing all salvoes after movement. Without having to
predict where the enemy is moving, this makes salvoes more accurate then they
were normally.
Option 3: When moving a salvo armed ship, fire its salvoes just before moving
that ship. This is sort of a compromise of options 1 and 2. It is very
accurate against ships which have already moved (i.e. no movement prediction
needed), but allows ships which haven't moved a chance to dodge them.
Are there other options I should consider?
I welcome your comments and suggestions.
--Greg
> I was thinking of dividing the Move Ships phase into 5
You could approximate this and add some randomness by doing what some folks do
with firing. Roll a die per ship, and move them in order. You could use the
same die to order firing
if you wanted--ships that move later (advantage of seeing
where other ships went) also fire later.
> I was thinking of dividing the Move Ships phase into 5
Perhaps try this: roll for initiative. Winner moves 1/2
distance; loser moves full distance; winner completes the second half of his
move. Optional: loser can adjust facing 1 point after winner completes his
move. (This whole concept
is taken from a naval game--Royal Navy or Ironbottom Sound
or one of those)
> Are there other options I should consider?
Use a chip to represent the salvo. Toss it from N feet away.
On 1/6/06, gzg-l-request@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
> <gzg-l-request@lists.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Perhaps try this: roll for initiative. Winner moves 1/2
Never seen the game, but I came up with this idea on my own back in 1999. I
also tried it by splitting the game into smaller segments:
winner moves 1/4, loser moves 1/2, winner moves 1/2, loser moves 1/2,
winner moves 1/4. It didn't add a whole lot, except that I allowed
firing at the end of each movement phase. (This was for my Full Steam rules.)
In play, the "winner" was usually the guy who moved second, though, not the
first guy to move. It would be interesting to try it with Full Thrust. It
avoids that Full Thrust weirdness where you have to guess if your opponent is
going to break left or break right, guess wrong,
and end up _way_ wrong in where you end up. In "reality" you'd be able
to adjust your bad movement before the end of a turn, however long you define
that to be.
From: "Allan Goodall"
> It avoids that Full Thrust weirdness where you have to guess
Or to put it a different way: turn length should be based on how long it takes
the ship commander to receive information, issue an order, and have the ship
execute the maneuver. You wouldn't have a
platoon-based game with one-week turns...
When would you fire missile salvos under this scheme? Do you fire them at the
same time as the beam weapons? If so, then you take out the element where you
have to anticipate your opponent's next move. If you fire salvoes at the same
time as beam weapons, then you just point to a target within range and within
arc and fire. It takes away the uniqueness of salvoes.
I don't know if he was serious, but Laserlight suggested tossing the salvoes
onto the table. This introduces
hand-eye-coordination into what should be a strategy game.
I think it would also be too unfair for my nephews.
So, any suggestions on how to handle salvoes in a plotless FT game??
--Greg
> On Jan 6, 2006, at 1:14 PM, Andy Skinner wrote:
> I was thinking of dividing the Move Ships phase into 5
> I would like to teach my nephews to play Full Thrust. Unfortunately,
[snip]
I've always considered the plotted movement (and hence the need to anticipate
your opponent's intentions) to be a very fundamental part of FT, and while
it's certainly possible to play it in various ways without plotted movement,
that makes it a very different game.
My preferred method for playing the game with young and/or
inexperienced players who find the concept or execution of plotted movement a
problem is this:
Assuming you have one experienced/adult player against a youngster or
newbie, make the experienced player plot movement as normal for
his/her ships, then allow the young player to move his/her ships
(without plotting, but still adhering to the normal movement rules and
restrictions). Finally the experienced player moves in accordance with the
plotted orders. The end result of this is essentially the same as if both
sides plotted and then moved as normal, thus preserving the feel of the game.
Yes, this method does mean that there are problems with placed marker weapons
like SMs (though only if the experienced player is using them
- the youngster can use them in the normal way without problems), but
probably you would be better sticking to simple direct fire systems when
teaching young players anyway. As they get more used to the rest of the game,
then maybe you can introduce them to the full plotted movement at a later
stage.
Best,
***
Assuming you have one experienced/adult player against a youngster or
newbie, make the experienced player plot movement as normal for
his/her ships, then allow the young player to move his/her ships
(without plotting, but still adhering to the normal movement rules and
restrictions). Finally the experienced player moves in accordance with the
plotted orders. The end result of this is essentially the same as if both
sides plotted and then moved as normal, thus preserving the feel of the game.
***
I've used this method in the past, and, in general, even fairly young ADD folk
pick up the plotting pretty darn fast.
As I've always considered SM's and Fighters 'advanced' rules, they aren't a
problem.
Actually, they are more ADD about my sloth at plotting than at doing the
deed themselves. ;->=
I do recognize that the first posted question concerned pitting newbies
against each other, but, as I say, one game demo'd as above is usually
sufficient.
The_Beast
> I don't know if he was serious, but Laserlight suggested
Unfair in favor of which side? :-)
My personal preference is that SM fire after ships move, but that takes more
extensive modifications.
Okay, alternate idea. Mark a few pennies with magic marker on the reverse. If
you want to differentiate between your missiles and his, use red and blue dry
erase markers. When you want to fire missiles, put out a handful of pennies,
heads up so the target can't see which are real.. After movement, flip the
pennies.
Pardon my bluntness as I don't mean to tick off anyone. Jon, you have a
wonderful game as written. I love FT. I'd gladly play it "according to Hoyle"
using either cinematic or vector movement with anyone. I have no problems with
plotted movement.
But I also know my nephews pretty well, and plotted movement is a
non-starter. They have so many
other toys and games to play with, that they simply won't play a second game
if they have to use plotted movement. I know this makes FT a different game. I
accept that. My nephews won't be playing FT with anyone else except me, so
they won't know the difference. I thought about the idea of one side plotting
movement while the other side moves unplotted, but it won't work for the
reasons you give. My nephews will want to play on opposite sides and I would
like to include SMs eventually.
So, I would like to politely and humbly ask that we just forget about plotted
movement for the sake of this thread.
I like Laserlight's idea of dummy SMs. I'll mull that over to see if that'll
work.
Please keep those ideas coming. Thanks.
--Greg
> On Jan 8, 2006, at 1:36 PM, Ground Zero Games wrote:
> I've always considered the plotted movement (and hence the need to
> restrictions). Finally the experienced player moves in accordance with
> the plotted orders. The end result of this is essentially the same as
> I like Laserlight's idea of dummy SMs. I'll mull that over to see
Could also have dummy ships, if you like. Maybe an extra dummy or two per
ship, and you don't find out if they're real until you shoot at them, Call the
dummies "drones with spoofing gear" if you need some PSB.
G'day,
> But I also know my nephews pretty well, and plotted movement is a
How old are they?
Our 2 olders kids (now a week off 9 and a month off 12) progressed through 1)
no plotting and move on a whim 2) tell Mum where they want to go and I write
their orders under instruction 3) they write it and we go easy on mistakes 4)
everyone is writing orders and being held to them
They actually progress through those levels fairly fast (so if an older kid
they'll be plotting after a handful of games, if younger and still
learning to write it may take until they're 7-8 or so to get to the
final stage).
Mei at 4 is still only pointing where she wants stuff to go (though even she
wants to write scribble orders on her "ships driving sheet"). Also as for SMs
even without plotting kids can become a little tunnel vision and fly right
beside one anyway, it wouldn't be the first time I've said "do you really want
to fly right next to that missile?". Dummy's are good solution too though.
Even if you go no plotting for them I'd still strongly recommend you plot.
Kids love to feel grown up so if they see you plotting then they will want to
too soon enough. Depending on their age, if you pretend to be the nav computer
they're programming with their stylus they'll get some extra kicks out of
their goofy Uncle;)
It also sets them up to more smoothly progress into "full FT" as they age,
they're not suddenly bombarded with game concepts they haven't seen used.
Cheers
> Our 2 olders kids (now a week off 9 and a month off 12) progressed
Sadly, my gamers aren't as bright as your kids.
> Pardon my bluntness as I don't mean to tick off anyone. Jon, you
Don't worry Greg, no offence taken! ;-)
We've happy that you play or modify FT to any way you like, as long as you
have fun with it!
> But I also know my nephews pretty well, and plotted movement is a
In that case, I'd probably suggest using movement alternating by ship (though
other options may work as well or better!), and accepting the
fact that certain things (such as the placed-marker weaponry) are
just not going to work as intended because they are so dependant on plotting
as a fundamental part of the game.
> So, I would like to politely and humbly ask that we just forget
Yes, to me that sounds a good compromise if you want to use PMWs at all; maybe
two dummy markers for every real one, and if you place the three in a good
spread then even if your opponent maneuvers violently to avoid them all
(assuming he can do so), then they've at least had some value as "area denial"
weapons! Maybe some limitation like all three (the real salvo and the two
dummies) must be no more than 6mu apart (from at least one other - so
a line of them 12mu long would be OK), and (as I think someone else suggested
earlier) PSB it that the firing ship launches a couple of "crybaby" decoy
missiles at the same time as the actual salvo.... come to think of it, that's
not a bad idea for a weapon system option
even for "normal" plotted games.... ;-)
Best,
Jon (GZG)
> Please keep those ideas coming. Thanks.
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
http://lists.csua.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lI got my kid into
Full Thrust a few months ago. He definately needed help in plotting ahead and
once we switched to vector movement, he occasionaly became frustrated at
waching his ships whiz away off the board at top speed once we crossed the
merge.
"Perhaps try this: roll for initiative. Winner moves 1/2
distance; loser moves full distance; winner completes the second half of his
move. Optional: loser can adjust facing 1 point after winner completes his
move."
Have nay of you guys trie dte new Federation Commander Boardgame (Based of
SFB). It uses I go U go impulses to somehwat do away with plotiing, though you
still have decisions to make up front with terms of power allocation and what
not before the moveement starts.
I do think the concept of detailed plotting can be a bit much for younger
kids, (Mine's 8) though by sticking with it they pick it the basics quickly.
Requires pre-requiste geek mastery to really get it at a young age.
Los
I thought of another thing I like to try when training someone who hasn't
tried FT before, and to get them over the hurdle of plotting being scary.
When demo'ing true FTII, ok, 'cinematic', I make my plot, then proceed to mark
out my maneuver 'envelope', putting a marker where all thrust is forward, a
marker where all thrust is retarding, some markers at end points from a couple
different turns. Assume no more than thrust four; thrust one would make the
plotting MUCH simpler, but who wants to play pigs like
that?!?
Then the trainees work out their plots with near full knowledge.
Again, tedious, but gets the idea across in a turn or two.
Greg, it's your call on the lads, of course, but the short attention span
issue isn't an absolute. Those darn kids will become addicted to the
weirdest things, e.g., math-o-phobes that develope into statistical
wizards, when describing favorite teams or players. I just don't claim to
know how to make that addiction plotted FT. ;->=
Do let us know how your plotless adaptation works! I could be way off base
here, but I'd just go with using another rule set, such as BFG, or 1st
addition Starfire. I've got hex-covered star mats for the latter, and
there are plenty of fleets locally of the former, given it's died a pretty
solid death, here.
By the way, 'plot the envelope' can be a useful tool for those of us that
don't play for awhile, then find visualizing play tough for several turns on
their first return game.
The_Beast
G'day,
> he occasionaly became frustrated at waching his ships whiz away
The way our kids roll their usually wasn't any opposition left by that point;)
> Requires pre-requiste geek mastery to really get it at a young age.
Well our kids are lumbered with us as parents;)
Neverthless I'd say its not a Herculean task to teach kids the "real rules"
from the get go. You hand hold through the plotting and make lots of jokes
(and have some give) when mistakes happen. Its more work for the adults
(especially if you haven't got a Robin Williams grasp of funny voices), but it
pays off in the long run.
Cheers
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
http://lists.csua.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lYeah Miles started
whining on his vector battle about not being able to get his ships to do what
he wanted, but after threatening him with vast sums of paining for whining
about small stuff, (He's only allowed to whine if sufficient quantities of
blood or other ichor is coming out of his body) he
made a mid-course burn on his attitude and got back to blasting me with
his primaries...
Los
G'day,
> Yeah Miles started whining on his vector battle about not being able
Oh I know that situation all too well! Derek goes your route, I've had more
success with "whinge points". They start off with a pool, they get to the end
of the game with any intact I'll paint them a fig in proportion to the points
remaining. They're weaned off this method as they get older (and should be
better sportsman fullstop) and when they have a bigger fleet than mine;)
Have fun