[GZG][FH] Planet types - atmosphere effects on VTOL's

4 posts ยท Dec 1 1998 to Dec 1 1998

From: Adrian Johnson <ajohnson@i...>

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:52:12 -0500

Subject: Re: [GZG][FH] Planet types - atmosphere effects on VTOL's

Ok - this is getting a bit esoteric, but there's a point at the end...

> Hi all! I'm new to the list, and new to GZG, just picked up FT MT and

> carrying capacity.

Hello! Welcome to the list. Glad to have you with us.

> The fans on a VTOL have the same power output in the dense atmo as a

> a function of the square of the velocity of the vehicle, so drag is a

I suggested that carrying capacity could go up, to some degree. Here's my
reasoning - again based on pilot experience, not by any stretch on
expertise in physics... Aerodynamic lifting surfaces (say, wings on a plane,
propellers, rotors on a helicopter) all work less efficiently at lower
atmospheric pressures. Both fixed wing aircraft and helicopters can take off
at higher elevations (up to a point), but with reduced maximum
load - for example the helicopters the Indian Army uses in the Himalayan
mountains (operating at 15 - 20,000 feet or higher) can carry troops,
but at less than half their rated max capacity (or lower). To get a fixed wing
aircraft off a runway at a given weight will require a higher takeoff speed
and much longer takeoff run at higher airport elevations. The reverse is
true - you can take off in shorter distances at slower speeds at lower
elevations, with higher atmospheric pressure. This stuff I know by experience.

Here's where I start hypothesizing: VTOL aircraft using lift fans would
generate lift in two ways - the aerodynamic lift of the fan blades (same
as a helicopter rotor) and the displacement of air by the fans. A lift fan in
a denser atmosphere would have a higher total potential lift. The fan blades
will have a fixed maximum speed (you don't want the blades to exceed
the speed of sound, or you get nasty shockwaves happening, etc etc -
that's
why helicopters have a slow maximum speed) - but at that maximum speed
they will have a higher potential aerodynamic lift and will displace a greater
volume of air molecules, therefore generating more total lift compared to a
lower atmospheric pressure - up to a point...  The point being that as
you
pointed out, drag increases non-linearly - so there will be a point at
which the greater potential lift is surpassed by drag, and your net result is
either that the lift and drag balance out, or the drag exceeds lift and you
lose out. The other limiting factor is the power of the engine driving the
lift fan. While there is a fixed maximum potential speed for the fan blades,
it will require considerably more power to get them to that speed
(because of the extra mass of air you are moving and extra drag) - VTOLs
now are designed with engines that produce more power than the rotors can
transfer to the air, to provide emergency reserves, etc. In the future, when
operating in denser atmospheres is a possible requirement, maybe they design
VTOL engines with even more power reserves? One further wrinkle to this that I
would kind of like to ignore 'cause I don't really know what the effect would
be is that the maximum potential speed of the lift fans
will actually decrease in higher atmospheric pressures - because the
speed of sound will decrease, and therefore the point at which you hit the
Mach shockwaves comes sooner... So what does that do to the potential output
of the lift fan?

GAME EFFECTS:

In the end, what I suggest is this: for game purposes, up to some arbitrary
point with higher atmospheric pressures you will see a limited increase in the
carrying capacity of VTOL's, but a lowering of their
maximum cross-country travel speed.  Beyond this arbitrary point, the
capacity of VTOL's drops off sharply, 'cause you've reached the point where
drag is surpassing the lift benefits of denser air and/or the max. power
output of the VTOL engines to compensate...

I say arbitrary, 'cause I don't know what the points should be - so I'd
make it up. Say, you get a performance increase of 25% carrying capacity at
1.5x earth normal pressure. But the cutoff for benefits is 2x earth
normal - at which point the VTOL's decrease in efficiency.  At some
point, you'll need extremely specially designed vehicles (like a modern glider
-
with high lift, low drag surfaces) to operate in the high pressure
atmospheres. Maybe powered balloons (ok, that sounds kind of silly), or
vehicles that do not rely on aerodynamic lift at all, like grav vehicles.

So, there you go.

Hope I didn't violate too many laws of physics.

From: jim clem <travmind@h...>

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:33:23 PST

Subject: Re: [GZG][FH] Planet types - atmosphere effects on VTOL's

hehehehehehehe, sorry, I couldnt help myself, I'm an engineer, we tend to get
that way. I know my friends have reached brain saturation during

one of my detailed explanations when their faces take on that blank look.
Physics? Heck, this is a game, run with what feels good!

BTW, glad to be here

JimC

----Original Message Follows----
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:52:12 -0500

From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:24:15 -0500

Subject: Re: [GZG][FH] Planet types - atmosphere effects on VTOL's

Adrian spake thusly upon matters weighty:

Ummm.... fixed max speed on fans.... try this.... probably fixed max engine
rotational torque to the fan shafts.... pushing denser air would mean preforce
a slower max rotation speed, ergo possibly the same max lift. And even if you
had the power to ram the fans around faster, you'd cause greater heating in
the fans because they'd be moving much heavier air (more of it). So perhaps
you don't get these benefits.

Just an alternate viewpoint.....

> Ok - this is getting a bit esoteric, but there's a point at the end...

> >major deal, in fact, the VTOL may even LOSE some speed.
Here's my
> reasoning - again based on pilot experience, not by any stretch on
power
> output of the VTOL engines to compensate...
/************************************************

From: Adrian Johnson <ajohnson@i...>

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 16:23:15 -0500

Subject: Re: [GZG][FH] Planet types - atmosphere effects on VTOL's

I was figuring the fixed max speed on the fan wasn't a mechanical limitation
of the fan or engine (though they would probably design it that way to prevent
damage from overspeeding the mechanisms) but rather an aerodynamic limitation
on the fan blades. If the fan spins too fast, the
tips will be breaking the speed of sound - you get shockwaves, stalling,
etc etc... All bad for efficiency (and the survival of the fan...). Even if
you have super strong blades that won't shatter, you get all kinds of weird
effects on the airflow through the fan once the blades go supersonic.

> Ummm.... fixed max speed on fans.... try this.... probably fixed max

So we build really powerful engines with cryogenic cooling fluid circulating
through the fan shafts and fan blades by centripidal
force...

or

....lots and lots of hamsters, running on the treadmill really fast, and their
breath cools the system....

(ok, never mind)

:-)

> Just an alternate viewpoint.....

Hey, like I said, I'm using the armchair-physics method of figuring this
stuff out...so who knows if I'm right. It seems plausible to me based on what
I think I know, but it would be good if there was an aerodynamicist around to
comment.

For sure there would be *some* kind of effect on the performance of
aircraft that use aerodynamic lift in a higher-pressure environment, for
the same reasons there are effects on aerodynamic lift in lower-pressure
environments.