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ond,
I understand why you did what you did. The part that got me was this: the
German MG took most of its fire in the first round or two. Then it didn't
need any more - it couldn't easily succeed an activation (and Bob's dice
were uncooperative in getting us an 8+ on d10). We couldn't autofail to
clear them either. So even after it stopped taking fire, it sat there for
three to five rounds. The enemy focused fire on other units (because it
could) and that MG just did nothing - didn't get better, didn't get
worse, could not act.
Here's my 0.02 on how to fix this:
Any turn you are in sight of the enemy but don't take a stress chit: Remove 1
stress chit at the end of the turn.
Any turn you are not in sight of the enemy and don't take a stress chit:
Remove 2 stress chits at the end of the turn.
These mean that a stressed unit will unstress steadily if left alone unless
the enemy continues to cause stress.
On the Grenade Front:
In anything but open terrain (woods or inside a building), there is a good
chance the grenad may land close enough to hurt you but not in an easy to get
to location nor maybe even in a visible one. I read about Chosin and the
Marines in a foxhole throwing back grenades and batting them back with a rifle
like a baseball as the Chicoms threw them from the baskets they were dragging
on the attack, so some part of your concept is fine, but I think it too could
use refinement. So I'll suggest something here too:
Test to throw a grenade back:
Roll to beat MOTIVATION + STRESS (if you're pinned in place with your
hands
over your ears, you aren't getting up to throw that grenade) + 1 per 1"
away the grenade lands. So, a cool hand MOTIVATION 1 with no stress has a
grenade land at his feet = easy to throw back. A more normal MOTIVATION 2 with
two stress chits due to fire who has a grenade land 2" away would have to beat
a 6, more of a challenge. I'd also roll a D4 or D6 'cover die' for the grenade
(D4 in relatively un-dense cover like light woods and a D6 in dense
cover like thick woods or rubble) and if the throw back roll does not exceed
this cover die, the grenade isn't found and goes off. So you could still throw
them back, you'd just have to roll more than 3 or 4 most of the time on your
dice. Your vets and elites would probably still not have much problem, regs
would be okay in calm circumstances where they could see the grenade, but your
greens would probably be hard pressed as would regs in cluttered surroundings.
Alternative 'Reaction' Action:
Dive For Cover: Character rolls to beat MOTIVATION + STRESS. If he
succeeds, he dives behind cover (in cover behind whatever is available, or
just simply prone to cut his target silhouette). In position would give you an
upshift vs. the grenade dice on the roll to effect (or reduce the range of
numbers
that make the grenade effective - I was a bit vague on what the 'to hit'
roll for the grenade explosion/shrapnel was).
Either of these eat up your next activation even if they fail to produce a
successful result as the character tried to dive for cover or throw the
grenade back.
I also think you should have 'reaction fire' for unactivated units into whose
frontage appears an active enemy.
Reaction Fire: Character rolls to beat MOTIVATION + STRESS. If he
succeeds, he may fire ONE snapshot (not two) or execute a melee attack if
enemy is right beside him or throw a primed grenade he holds ready. The
attempt is
really quick to pre-empt the foe and QD is shifted down one. Note that
failing still means you can fire, only after the enemy has completed his
actions. In either case, it costs you your next activation (and you're only
getting one ACTION instead of a full ACTIVATION).
A reaction move could work with a similar mechanics: Beat STRESS +
MOTIVATION and then allow one combat move (only a combat move - a panic
attempt to move). Succeed or fail, lose your next activation. And get only ONE
move action if you succeed.
I think with these fixes, you remove
- the issue with stress that never reduces even after people stop
shooting at you
- the issue with ease of grenade returns (a real dis-incentive to throw
them back) (they stay simple for good troops in low stress and uncluttered
surroundings, but not for stressed troops, poor troops, or in cluttered
surroundings)
- the problem of being the first one to take up a firing position in a
woodsline (enemies all sprout out of the far woodsline and shoot at you
without having to spot and you can't fire at them even if you have not
activated yet for the round) (in other words, reduces blink monster scenarios)
- gives people a 'dive for cover' and a 'move out of blast radius'
option for grenades
Otherwise, I think the scenario played out very well. Next time, be sure to
say twice that your character sheet has to say "Grenade" on it for your
character to have them. I missed that.
TomB
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d Ideas Tomb. Should we take this to the playtest list?
Bob Makowsky
________________________________
From: Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com>
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 6:55:08 PM
Subject: [GZG] [ECC XII][For Damo] Thoughts on stress for FMAS - some
feedback
Damond,
I understand why you did what you did. The part that got me was this: the
German MG took most of its fire in the first round or two. Then it
didn't need any more - it couldn't easily succeed an activation (and
Bob's dice were uncooperative in getting us an 8+ on d10). We couldn't
autofail to clear them either. So even after it stopped taking fire, it sat
there for three to five rounds. The enemy focused fire on other
units (because it could) and that MG just did nothing - didn't get
better, didn't get worse, could not act.
Here's my 0.02 on how to fix this:
Any turn you are in sight of the enemy but don't take a stress chit: Remove 1
stress chit at the end of the turn.
Any turn you are not in sight of the enemy and don't take a stress chit:
Remove 2 stress chits at the end of the turn.
These mean that a stressed unit will unstress steadily if left alone unless
the enemy continues to cause stress.
On the Grenade Front:
In anything but open terrain (woods or inside a building), there is a good
chance the grenad may land close enough to hurt you but not in an easy to get
to location nor maybe even in a visible one. I read about Chosin and the
Marines in a foxhole throwing back grenades and batting them back with a rifle
like a baseball as the Chicoms threw them from the baskets they were dragging
on the attack, so some part of your concept is fine, but I think it too could
use refinement. So I'll suggest something here too:
Test to throw a grenade back:
Roll to beat MOTIVATION + STRESS (if you're pinned in place with your
hands over your ears, you aren't getting up to throw that grenade) + 1
per 1" away the grenade lands. So, a cool hand MOTIVATION 1 with no stress has
a grenade land at his feet = easy to throw back. A more normal MOTIVATION 2
with two stress chits due to fire who has a grenade land 2" away would have to
beat a 6, more of a challenge. I'd also roll
a D4 or D6 'cover die' for the grenade (D4 in relatively un-dense cover
like light woods and a D6 in dense cover like thick woods or rubble) and if
the throw back roll does not exceed this cover die, the grenade isn't found
and goes off. So you could still throw them back, you'd just have to roll more
than 3 or 4 most of the time on your dice. Your vets and elites would probably
still not have much problem, regs would be okay in calm circumstances where
they could see the grenade, but your greens would probably be hard pressed as
would regs in cluttered surroundings.
Alternative 'Reaction' Action:
Dive For Cover: Character rolls to beat MOTIVATION + STRESS. If he
succeeds, he dives behind cover (in cover behind whatever is available, or
just simply prone to cut his target silhouette). In position would give you an
upshift vs. the grenade dice on the roll to effect (or
reduce the range of numbers that make the grenade effective - I was a
bit vague on what the 'to hit' roll for the grenade explosion/shrapnel
was).
Either of these eat up your next activation even if they fail to produce a
successful result as the character tried to dive for cover or throw the
grenade back.
I also think you should have 'reaction fire' for unactivated units into whose
frontage appears an active enemy.
Reaction Fire: Character rolls to beat MOTIVATION + STRESS. If he
succeeds, he may fire ONE snapshot (not two) or execute a melee attack if
enemy is right beside him or throw a primed grenade he holds ready.
The attempt is really quick to pre-empt the foe and QD is shifted down
one. Note that failing still means you can fire, only after the enemy has
completed his actions. In either case, it costs you your next activation (and
you're only getting one ACTION instead of a full ACTIVATION).
A reaction move could work with a similar mechanics: Beat STRESS +
MOTIVATION and then allow one combat move (only a combat move - a panic
attempt to move). Succeed or fail, lose your next activation. And get only ONE
move action if you succeed.
I think with these fixes, you remove
- the issue with stress that never reduces even after people stop
shooting at you
- the issue with ease of grenade returns (a real dis-incentive to throw
them back) (they stay simple for good troops in low stress and uncluttered
surroundings, but not for stressed troops, poor troops, or in cluttered
surroundings)
- the problem of being the first one to take up a firing position in a
woodsline (enemies all sprout out of the far woodsline and shoot at you
without having to spot and you can't fire at them even if you have not
activated yet for the round) (in other words, reduces blink monster scenarios)
- gives people a 'dive for cover' and a 'move out of blast radius'
option for grenades
Otherwise, I think the scenario played out very well. Next time, be sure to
say twice that your character sheet has to say "Grenade" on it for your
character to have them. I missed that.
TomB
> On Mar 2, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Tom B wrote:
> The enemy focused fire on other units (because it could) and that
I understand the frustration with this.:) Having appropriate leadership nearby
would have increased the number of chances per turn by at least one on
average. Unfortunately your leaders got stuck in the line due to other
circumstances.
> Any turn you are in sight of the enemy but don't take a stress
I like the first but the second would require a bit more effort --
"not in sight" for the entire turn? By end of turn? If the former that'd
require remembering every enemy movement path during the turn. This may not be
a problem as figure density is pretty low for your average force on force
game.
I wonder if you could have spent and activation to drag the gunner back into
the woods? Have the leader slap him up a bit and then send him back into the
line. FMAS, to me at least, is part RPG so I would have allowed that.
> On the Grenade Front:
I'll preface my comments with the fact that if you have any nerve on the
character you have to take an activation check first just to be able to
activate. A second comment would be that regular FMAS
throwing a grenade is a two action activity -- one to prepare and two
to throw and have it blow up. Having the grenade explode on your next action
was mine. A So with that said...
> Test to throw a grenade back:
I like the above but in your second example a Regular/2 with two
nerve tokens will have to roll 5+ on a d8 in order to activate first
(50%). Then move 2" to contact the 'nade. Another 5+ reaction check
would be made (50%) to pick it up and throw it back. Failure on this roll
would mean the trooper couldn't find the grenade or the enemy cooked it off
before he threw it.
On the table I think that'd work out to RUN AWAY! Which is alright as well.:)
The odds start to work out better at the Vet / Elite end of the
range. That's peachy as I'd expect more battlefield presence out of these
guys.
I don't want to lose sight of the fact that tactically you'd engage with small
arms at a certain range and once the target has been
prepped go in for the final 15-20m close assault to get things done.
Charging a prepared three man position with a luger in one hand and a potato
masher in the other is a recipe for failure. I could imagine the Paratroopers
saying "WTF is that crazy SOB doing?"
> Alternative 'Reaction' Action:
Leaving you dead meat -- but the grenade has done it's job even if it
didn't cause any wounds. Against a single target that's probably not
a big deal but in 2+ man fighting positions it can be an issue. At
that point, in order to protect the other troopers in the position it's time
to consider a Medal of Honor style activity.
> I also think you should have 'reaction fire' for unactivated units
Already in the rules. You can go on overwatch and I believe that if you want
reactive fire you burn both activations to take a shot. I wouldn't expect
everyone at the table to know that offhand and probably should have explained
that beforehand.
> I think with these fixes, you remove
Check on this one. Next year drag the gunner into better cover and slap him up
more.;)
> - the issue with ease of grenade returns (a real dis-incentive to
Using normal activation checks and then applying another check modified by
movement distances should be enough to help here. At
least for your standard Regular/2 types.
> - the problem of being the first one to take up a firing position
I should have explained the opp fire bit beforehand. One weakness if MINE is
that I assume most ECC attendies have played FMAS of one version or another.
> - gives people a 'dive for cover' and a 'move out of blast radius'
Using the procedure we used Sunday you have an action to respond. So you could
move one guy out. If you have a leader nearby it becomes possible to move two
guys out of the position. This does become an issue once the nade is thrown
back. Of course if we use some of the tweaks above the odds of that happening
slim down dramatically.
> Otherwise, I think the scenario played out very well. Next time, be
That one is all me. I'll lay it at the feet of "it was Sunday morning after a
long weekend of gaming.":)
Damo
> On Mar 3, 2009, at 6:56 AM, Robert Makowsky wrote:
> Good Ideas Tomb. Should we take this to the playtest list?
I'm not a member of that particular cabal so if there is a conversation
surrounding my scenario I'd like for them to remain on the public list.
Damo
I enjoyed the game very much even with the MG gunner playing patty cake with
all the stress markers that he got. <G>.
With some of the small changes that are being hashed out this system would be
great for small actions. I wonder if there is any plans to pubish such a
system in the future? Or better yet, where is the current version of the rules
and who is working on it? How can we help finish them and get them out the
door?
Magic
----- Original Message ----
From: Damo <damosan@gmail.com>
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:17:54 AM
Subject: Re: [GZG] [ECC XII][For Damo] Thoughts on stress for FMAS -
some feedback
> On Mar 2, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Tom B wrote:
> The enemy focused fire on other units (because it could) and that
I understand the frustration with this.:) Having appropriate leadership nearby
would have increased the number of chances per turn by at least one on
average. Unfortunately your leaders got stuck in the line due to other
circumstances.
> Any turn you are in sight of the enemy but don't take a stress
I like the first but the second would require a bit more effort --
"not in sight" for the entire turn? By end of turn? If the former that'd
require remembering every enemy movement path during the turn. This may not be
a problem as figure density is pretty low for your average force on force
game.
I wonder if you could have spent and activation to drag the gunner back into
the woods? Have the leader slap him up a bit and then send him back into the
line. FMAS, to me at least, is part RPG so I would have allowed that.
> On the Grenade Front:
I'll preface my comments with the fact that if you have any nerve on the
character you have to take an activation check first just to be able to
activate. A second comment would be that regular FMAS
throwing a grenade is a two action activity -- one to prepare and two
to throw and have it blow up. Having the grenade explode on your next action
was mine. A So with that said...
> Test to throw a grenade back:
I like the above but in your second example a Regular/2 with two
nerve tokens will have to roll 5+ on a d8 in order to activate first
(50%). Then move 2" to contact the 'nade. Another 5+ reaction check
would be made (50%) to pick it up and throw it back. Failure on this roll
would mean the trooper couldn't find the grenade or the enemy cooked it off
before he threw it.
On the table I think that'd work out to RUN AWAY! Which is alright as well.:)
The odds start to work out better at the Vet / Elite end of the
range. That's peachy as I'd expect more battlefield presence out of these
guys.
I don't want to lose sight of the fact that tactically you'd engage with small
arms at a certain range and once the target has been
prepped go in for the final 15-20m close assault to get things done.
Charging a prepared three man position with a luger in one hand and a potato
masher in the other is a recipe for failure. I could imagine the Paratroopers
saying "WTF is that crazy SOB doing?"
> Alternative 'Reaction' Action:
Leaving you dead meat -- but the grenade has done it's job even if it
didn't cause any wounds. Against a single target that's probably not
a big deal but in 2+ man fighting positions it can be an issue. At
that point, in order to protect the other troopers in the position it's time
to consider a Medal of Honor style activity.
> I also think you should have 'reaction fire' for unactivated units
Already in the rules. You can go on overwatch and I believe that if you want
reactive fire you burn both activations to take a shot. I wouldn't expect
everyone at the table to know that offhand and probably should have explained
that beforehand.
> I think with these fixes, you remove
Check on this one. Next year drag the gunner into better cover and slap him up
more.;)
> - the issue with ease of grenade returns (a real dis-incentive to
Using normal activation checks and then applying another check modified by
movement distances should be enough to help here. At
least for your standard Regular/2 types.
> - the problem of being the first one to take up a firing position
I should have explained the opp fire bit beforehand. One weakness if MINE is
that I assume most ECC attendies have played FMAS of one version or another.
> - gives people a 'dive for cover' and a 'move out of blast radius'
Using the procedure we used Sunday you have an action to respond. So you could
move one guy out. If you have a leader nearby it becomes possible to move two
guys out of the position. This does become an issue once the nade is thrown
back. Of course if we use some of the tweaks above the odds of that happening
slim down dramatically.
> Otherwise, I think the scenario played out very well. Next time, be
That one is all me. I'll lay it at the feet of "it was Sunday morning after a
long weekend of gaming.":)
Damo
Damo,
Roger that. Thought you were a member. By all means lets keep it here then
sir!
----- Original Message ----
From: Damo <damosan@gmail.com>
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:57:35 AM
Subject: Re: [GZG] [ECC XII][For Damo] Thoughts on stress for FMAS -
some feedback
> On Mar 3, 2009, at 6:56 AM, Robert Makowsky wrote:
> Good Ideas Tomb. Should we take this to the playtest list?
I'm not a member of that particular cabal so if there is a conversation
surrounding my scenario I'd like for them to remain on the public list.
Damo