Helps to send this to the list instead...
I'll do a final narrative to resolve things shortly (John estimated his forces
were insufficient to continue the attack).
***
To summarise what was about to happen (and what I originally envisioned
afterwards):
Secret info from deployment: Laserlight had a stormwater tunnel running from K
into Beggars canyon. He also had one cannister of nerve gas (which I had
envisioned as a "doomsday" option if everything else failed). John had some
satellite survillance (which became available right after that last firefight
for 8 hours) and his vehicles were chem resistant (which should have been a
clue as to what may turn up later). Laserlight surprised me a bit by deploying
so many forces away from his base of operations. As soon as John got through
them, there was little left to stop his armoured forces. Admittedly, John was
a little hamstrung by high command (ie: me) in
that he had a 2 more units (1 heavy tank + 1 light AFV) that did not
arrive with the initial drop. Unknown to him, they were going to turn up
tomorrow or the next day as reinforcements as operations cleared elsewhere.
Location of forces as of this point had Laserlights two tanks hidden on the
highway between Q & K. John had 3 light AFVs hidden in ambush a few
miles behind them, with 3-man scout teams pushing forward in recon (and
they would have found them later today). The tanks spotted the AFVs moving
behind, but were unable to engage due to geography. The AFVs did not engage
the SUV that drove by as per orders (they were waiting for the inevitable
retreat of Hudak's forces). Behind *them* (all the way back near K) there was
a roadblock manned by Hudak forces stopping civilian traffic (and "protecting"
important persons they found). John had also dropped infantry into Beggars
Canyon, so even if Laserlight had used the tunnel, they would have walked
strait into an ambush (within range of artillery support). There weren't a
*lot* there, but enough to see and engage if necessary. Meanwhile back in K,
Sgt Laszlo got sidetracked and robbed the local bank of about $7M and change
(whether they got away with it in the end depends on when their employer or
the NAC found out about it).
With regards to what happened with the nerve gas it was always a wild card in
how I would write it in. In the end, I had one of the first captured PA
troopers crack under interrogation (as Hudak had the PA responsible for it).
Right after that, Hudak had arranged for it to be transferred forward. Not
sure how I would have resolved things if he had chosen to actually *use* it
(as only his PA would have survived it).
If John had chosen to consolidate and move onto K, it *probably* would have
been an easy run due to: 1. Active Satellite recon showing exactly where Hudak
troops were moving; 2. Scouts having located the ambushing tanks; 3. Armoured
vehicles in open terrain vs infantry; 4. Most of Hudak's PA being rendered
ineffective by that last fight. There was always the random factor; including
Hudak was laying ambush
sections of 30-40 round metal plates on chokepoint road sections and
other sneaky infantry tricks.
How I sketched out the game (before orders came in) was as follows: 1. John
drops and sends out scouts. 2. Laserlight's forward scouts gather intel when
John moves into Q and reports back. 3. Laserlight sets up a series of "hit and
fade" strikes any time laserlight sends his vehicles forward. 4. Main
engagement occurs in K (as the natural geographical choke point). 5. Hudak
escapes down the tunnel (or leads a flanking attack by his PA up Beggars
Canyon).
Of course, no plan survives contact with actual players.
Back to the casualty figures; it seemed a natural point to include public
knowledge (and both sides would have a general view of the other from recon
and interrogation of captives). How accurate it would have proven
depends on re-organisation and the morale of units.
To let you know, most of Hudaks surviving infantry that had engaged was down
to Shaken (with a few Broken or Steady squads left), while John's forces were
nearly all Steady (mostly due to the all or nothing nature of vehicle kills).
This would have been a telling factor for the next day or so.
As for GM mistakes; as noted previously I seemed to have mixed up attacker and
defender in the second and third reports, which may have led to different
decisions by the commanders if I had written them correctly. There was also a
bit of mixing of SG and DS in combat resolution which favoured the infantry in
some spots and the vehicles in others. If gamed out, its debatable whether
there would have been *more* vehicle kills or
not, as most of them were only size 2-3 and armour 2 (under DS2 rules).
If anyone has the opportunity, I would be interested to see how this would
play out on a table. Summary of forces (at start):
Atkinson's Arrow Dragoons Company HQ:
Col Atkinson (E1-CO) - IFV & HQ
Advanced Command Post (R2-ST)
Field Ambulance (R1-CO)
Forward Observer (V2-CO)
Dragoons:
Lt Dagon (V2-CO) - 3 ACR
Sgt Brock (R1-ST) - IFV (Size 3, RFAC/1 + GMS/H) & 3 ACR + Enh GMS/L
Cpl Jones (R2-CO) - IFV (Size 3, RFAC/1 + GMS/H) & 6 ACR (3 IAVR) + 2
SAW
Cpl Spaniel (G1-CO) - IFV (Size 3, RFAC/1 + GMS/H) & 6 ACR (3 IAVR) + 2
SAW
Cpl Tellif (R2-CO) - IFV (Size 3, RFAC/1 + GMS/H) & 6 ACR (3 IAVR) + 2
SAW Heavy Troop:
Lt Rider (R1-CO) - Light Tank (Size 2, HKP/3 + SAW)
Sgt Vandermeer (V2-CO) - Light Tank (Size 2, HKP/3 + SAW)
Sgt Elvar (R3-ST) - Light Tank (Size 2, HKP/3 + SAW)
Sgt Foley (V3-SH) - Light Tank (Size 2, HKP/3 + SAW) ** Turret damaged
in fixed forward Light Troop:
Lt Neeo (V2-CO) - AFV (Size 2, RFAC/1 + GMS/H) & 3 scouts
Sgt Halverson (R2-CO) - AFV (Size 2, RFAC/1 + GMS/H) & 3 scouts
Sgt Igor (R1-CO) - AFV (Size 2, RFAC/1 + GMS/H) & 3 scouts ** Down for
repairs
Sgt Jepard (R2-CO) - AFV (Size 2, RFAC/1 + GMS/H) & 3 scouts
Mortar Section:
Lt Mallard (V2-CO) - Mortar Carrier (Size 2, Light Mortar), 3 HE, 2 AP,
2 AT, 3 Smoke
Sgt Smith (G2-CO) - Mortar Carrier (Size 2, Light Mortar), 3 HE, 2 AP, 2
AT, 3 Smoke ** Unlimited harassing fire; loads are "maximum rate" fire
missions. Special Events:
Satellite Recon - You may request data via satellite once per week.
Chemical Protection; all your vehicles are chemical gas resistant until
damaged.
(Atkinson has 2 more units on the orbat; another each of AFV and light tanks).
Hudak's Hooligans HQ:
Major Csaba Hudak (V1-CO) + 8 specialists
Captain Stefan Vencel (V2-CO) - 7 SMG
First Platoon:
Lt Arpad (V2-CO), EW, medic
Cpl (R3-CO) - 3 ACR + GMS/L
Sgt (R2-CO) - 5 ACR (IAVR) + SAW + AGL
Cpl (G2-ST) - 5 ACR (IAVR) + SAW + AGL
Cpl (V3-CO) - 5 ACR (IAVR) + SAW + Flamer
Second Platoon:
Lt Bela (R3-CO), EW, medic
Cpl (G3-CO) - 3 ACR + GMS/L
Sgt (V3-ST) - 5 ACR (IAVR) + SAW + AGL
Cpl (R2-CO) + 5 ACR (IAVR) + SAW + AGL
Cpl (R2-CO) + 5 ACR (IAVR) + SAW + Flamer
Third Platoon:
Lt Cili (V3-ST), EW, medic
Cpl (V2-CO) - 3 ACR + GMS/L
Sgt (R2-CO) - 5 ACR (IAVR) + SAW + AGL
Cpl (G2-ST) + 5 ACR (IAVR) + SAW + AGL
Cpl (G3-CO) + 5 ACR (IAVR) + SAW + Flamer
Support Platoon:
Sgt Miklos (R2-CO) - SUV (Size 1 + Enh GMS/L + SAW)
Sgt (R2-CO) - SUV (Size 1 + Enh GMS/L + SAW)
Sgt Moric (R3-SH) - SUV (Size 1 + Light Mortar) 5 HE, 3 AP, 2 smoke*
Sgt (R2-CO) - SUV (Size 1 + Light Mortar) 5 HE, 3 AP, 2 smoke*
Sgt Virag (E1-CO) - SUV (Size 1 + Sup GMS/L/AA)
* Unlimited harassing fire; loads are "maximum rate" fire missions. Assault
Platoon:
Lt Paulus (V2-CO) - 3 x PA ACR + 1 PA Plasma
Sgt (R2-ST) - 4 PA ACR + 1 PA Flamer
Sgt (R3-CO) - 4 PA ACR + 1 PA Flamer
Sgt (G2-CO) - 4 PA ACR + 1 PA Flamer
Tank Platoon:
Lt Tunde (R3-ST) - NAC FV703 Hunter
Sgt (G2-CO) - FSE AGCI-5B (GMS/L)
Logistics Platoon:
Sgt Laszlo - Variable amount of undesirable bandits. ** Busy breaking
into the local bank. Special Events:
You have 1 canister of NV-17 Nerve Gas... and no chemical suits (except
the
PA).
Secret Tunnel: you have found an old stormwater drain that leads from H7 into
Beggars Canyon at E6
Brendan 'Neath Southern Skies
http://home.pacific.net.au/~southernsk/
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> On 10/9/06, Robertson, Brendan <Brendan.Robertson@dva.gov.au> wrote:
> If John had chosen to consolidate and move onto K, it
Here's the problem.
The way I read it, I had one tank and 2 IFVs (with understrength scratch
squads in them) to continue the attack, plus a short scout
platoon which isn't intended for a straight-up fight. Going up
against dug-in infantry I assumed that I'd hit an ambush based on the
fact that in the combat resolution as I was reading it, Hudak's troops
invariably got the drop on mine. Some cav troopers they turned out to
be--asleep at the switch each and every time a fight started. So I'd
be out another vehicle or two before I even started to inflict casualties.
I also, based on GM communications, pretty much figured that if Hudak's guys
were dismounted, then they wouldn't be picked up by satellite at all.
What would be the point? You want a fight to the death, hire some berserks.
As far as I can see, I should have absolutely refused the mission on day 1. If
I had both scout platoons and all my armor, it would have
been a whole different ball-game. I would have been able to screen
off that southern town and bypass it completely, and had enough firepower to
get into a fight without suffering catastrophic losses. I also would have had
the ability to maintain a reserve without reducing my main body to the point
that it couldn't defend itself.
In my book, it goes down as a case of stupidity on my part for underestimating
how bad the initial situation was and reacting accordingly. An armored cavalry
troop should not accept being bastardized and then sent into urban operations.
As for the intel brief I got, it was entirely wrong in every particular, which
is why I went into that damned town in the first place.
> Laserlight surprised me a bit by deploying so many forces away from
I still had a line platoon plus HQ in my Kimpo. But I figured if my job was to
hold Kimpo, then it would be prudent to arrange for the fighting to happen
somewhere else. (If you're going to shoot up a town, would you rather it be
the one you're keeping, or the one the enemy is keeping?)
> Behind *them* (all the way back near K) there
We were advising the locals that the travel to Q was unsafe because the Arrows
were liable to shoot them. Prominent people were escorted to HQ and encouraged
to delay their travel plans and advise their families of their whereabouts. If
some of them misinterpreted that as "holding them hostage", well, we were
certainly going to...be grateful for any assistance the locals could render.
> Meanwhile back in K, Sgt Laszlo got sidetracked and robbed the local
"SIDETRACKED"???? Clearly we have a different opinion on the victory
conditions!
> Right after that, Hudak had arranged for it to be
Huh? The PA were supposed to carry and emplace it.
> Not sure how I would have resolved things if he had
Well...depends on how close. I don't expect one cannister would do more than
the downwind portion of the terrain square it's in, and maybe the next square.
> 1. Active Satellite recon showing exactly where Hudak troops were
Can't ask for anything better than that...
> There was always the random factor; including Hudak was laying ambush
And encouraging the locals to take pot shots at the Arrows.
> 3. Laserlight sets up a series of "hit and fade" strikes any time
In open terrain? Against tanks?
> Of course, no plan survives contact with actual players.
"No plan survives contact with the enemy. And we are the enemy."
> whether there would have been *more* vehicle kills or not
I was certainly expecting more.
I think if John had pressed the attack, he would very likely have taken K.
That's why I was working on political factors and trying to create maximum
uncertainty and disruption. In the end, I contacted John directly and
suggested that we work out an accomodation; he told me he didn't have
sufficient force to press the attack, but I figured that was jus a ruse.
> On 10/9/06, laserlight@verizon.net <laserlight@verizon.net> wrote:
If I had enough of a force mixture to actually have maneuver options, you'd
have been screwed badly.
A second scout platoon would have been enough to permit me to screen Quetz and
drive straight for Kimpo. GIven that I didn't have enough forces, you won as
soon as I got into a fight. My second armor platoon would have allowed me to
lead off two up (and they'd be mixed
platoons, with two tanks and two IFVs) and an armor-pure platoon in
reserve.
Here's my reasoning:
I figured (based on the intel I got) that Quetz was pretty much unoccupied and
neutral to friendly. So I could quickly secure it, and keep back a reserve.
Wrong on four counts in those two sentences. On the other hand, knowing what I
know now, I don't see any other way to play it. I did not have a platoon I
could detach to screen Quetz, so I would have basically have had to ignore it
completely, which would put my headquarters, mortars, and service elements at
risk from your troops any time they felt like fighting. I'd have been
surrounded and fighting blind.
Another option would have been to move out and avoid the town entirely, moving
north and taking Kimpo from the West or Northwest.
Oh, wait. There's a ravine 70+ km long which is impassable to
vehicles and cannot be bypassed due to unit boundaries.
Given that I was required to move through one particular chokepoint, in order
to do that with a modicum of safety I couldn't leave behind any substantial
force in Quetz. Once it turned out that force was not only substantial, but
capable of wiping out one of my two maneuver
platoons (compared to your six--I can't afford to lose any of them and
still stay in the fight) I had to commit my reserve in order to simply
stabilize the immediate situation.
Once I committed my reserve and continued to take heavy casualties, the game
was over. It's not a game if you have no viable options, and I didn't.
> >1. Active Satellite recon showing exactly where Hudak troops were
Of course, that wasn't what I was told the sat would provide, which was only
the location of moving vehicles. I was tracking your vehicles were pretty much
gone except for your two AFVs, and if you didn't have them dug in and
camoflaged you were a lot stupider than you had been up to that point.
> >There was always the random factor; including Hudak was laying ambush
That would have been DUMB. No one shoots at tanks with hunting weapons and has
a nice day.
> not have a platoon I could detach to screen Quetz, so I would have
Which was another reason for me sending my guys to Q, so I could threaten your
drop point.
> >There was always the random factor; including Hudak was laying
John:
> That would have been DUMB. No one shoots at tanks with hunting
They've got to dismount some time. To clear abatis and "mines", for instance,
which is what those plates were for. Maybe pick off a PL or PSGT if we're
lucky, but at least force the tanks to button, deploy infantry, mill around
and delay. And if you nail the marskmen...so what? They're civlians, it makes
the Arrows look bad and it costs me nothing.
> On 10/9/06, laserlight@verizon.net <laserlight@verizon.net> wrote:
> They've got to dismount some time. To clear abatis and "mines", for
They're civlians, it makes the Arrows look bad and it costs me nothing.
OK, if you put metal plates in the middle of a hardball road, it doesn't look
like mines to me. It looks like metal plates in the middle of a hardball road.
I'm a Combat Engineer with almost 2 years in combat, not a Russian conscript
private driving a tank I can't see out of.
I might rake them with a machine gun to be sure, but that's about it.
There are ways you can make it look like a fake IED, but I'm not going into
TTP in an open forum, thank you.
> John Atkinson wrote:
> OK, if you put metal plates in the middle of a hardball road, it
I think the problem here was the player being too specific about what his
troops were doing. Instead of ordering a fake minefield and letting the
sergeants (in the form of the inimitable Mr.Robertson) handle it, Laserlight
got specific.
A number of RPG GMs I've known have allowed players to say what they do and
then make the roll without worrying about how plausible it was. It's
a common style, but I've always preferred to leave things a little vague
- like computer specifications in SF settings.
It's just something to watch out for whenever you play a character who's
an expert in things you aren't.
> At 8:27 AM +0300 10/10/06, John Atkinson wrote:
What about pie pans...(course.50 BMG fire will make those go pop in
place...... if they're mines, or not if not mines..)
> At 10:51 PM -0700 10/9/06, Michael Llaneza wrote:
Even so, John's got LOTS of experience dealing
with nuisance/fake mine fields. And if it's not
covered with medium and heavy weapons fire it's pointless.
He's been de-IED'ing parts of Iraq for a while
now and he's on his second tour. Wanna make him sweat? Put a fake mine field
right in front of a hidden real one mixed with chemical mines, Off route mines
and sentry guns covering the approaches. Then put artillery on the board with
priority orders to hit that TRP on orders from observers who are also spotting
and controlling remote fired long range top attack missiles. That'll get his
attention and make him break a sweat while he clears the mine fields while
under fire, concealed by his own smoke screens and
brews coffee at the same time... ;-)
> On 10/10/06, Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
I decline to comment on the mental picture that brought up.
Like I said, there are ways to make a hoax IED that look plausible. Throwing
plain metal plates in the road isn't one of them. And I'm not discussing the
'right' way to do things in an open forum.
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
http://lists.csua.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn 10/10/06, John
> Atkinson <johnmatkinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Good thing this is an email list and not a forum, then! :-D
Mk
> I'm a Combat Engineer with almost 2 years in combat
The tank drivers in Atkinson's Arrows aren't combat engineers, though. In any
event, the idea was "plant fake mines", with an occasional real ones in there
if I had any extra demo. Drop a few trees across the road.
Encourage local hunters to cover those points--probably most of them
won't be covered, but some will. After half a dozen of these nuisances, set a
real ambush.
> Laserlight got specific.
Yep.
> And if it's not covered with medium and heavy weapons fire it's
No...because the point is to delay. The Arrow tank leader rolls up and see
what might be a minefield. He doesn't know whether it is or not; he doesn't
know whether it's covered by a SAW or PIG or nothing. Should he risk those
expensive tanks and roll right through? Deploy infantry? Go around? If he goes
around, is he rolling into an ambush? Or a hidden minefield? Then there's a
rifle shot. Is it some yahoo with a deer rifle, or is it a marksman trying to
take out a tank sensor (or a tanker who's stuck his head out)? And remember,
it's mostly NOT Hooligans who are laying these delay points....my idea was to
show some locals how to do it, make an MPEG of the lesson, and put it on their
local web. After that it's no expense to me, and every hour it delays the
Arrows is an hour closer toward fulfilling my contract. And it shows the
locals "we're trying to help
defend you and we're willing to show you how to defend yourself--unlike
that evil imperialist who came and shot your beloved mayor." I was
working for the ESU, remember--it's all political.
Just to shortcut this a bit; the local civilians were *very* unlikely to help
out by shooting at anyone (esp. after John's "example" of the mayor).
I understood the fake minefield idea and was going to clean it up into
something game plausable when it was encountered (blasting caps under the
plates, grenades with the pin removed, commercial explosive on remote
detonator etc). As we didn't get that far, there was no need to think it
through.
Brendan 'Neath Southern Skies
http://home.pacific.net.au/~southernsk/
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> On 10/10/06, laserlight@verizon.net <laserlight@verizon.net> wrote:
Encourage local hunters to cover those points--probably most of them
won't be covered, but some will. After half a dozen of these nuisances, set a
real ambush.
You're also forgetting that they are driving tanks, not Mazda Miatas. We can
go off the road. In fact, I'd be disinclined to head up the road in the first
place.
K is a geographical choke point, but it's in comparison to the entire map.
It's still some km across.
> On 10/10/06, Indy <indy.kochte@gmail.com> wrote:
Which is archived on a website, and isn't cleared to discuss Secret
information, which is the classification on the TTP briefings I get.
> You're also forgetting that they are driving tanks, not Mazda Miatas.
We can go off the road.
Yeah, that did occur to me. I had to hope that going offroad would at least
slow the tanks some, and that blocking the roads would be a problem for your
support vehicles.
> On 10/11/06, laserlight@verizon.net <laserlight@verizon.net> wrote:
We can go off the road.
> Yeah, that did occur to me. I had to hope that going offroad would at
You ever driven a 5-ton offroad? It's bumpy, but it can be done.
Slowing, yes. Slowing enough to matter? Not really.
> At 5:35 PM +0300 10/11/06, John Atkinson wrote:
Depends on the roads. Properly setup off road vehicles can get some useful
speeds that are as good as slow road speeds. Not 55mph, but not bad. If it
allows you to bypass strong points and cornhole your opponent, then it's good.
I have driven wheeled and tracked stuff off road and it is tricky, the
advantage is that the more modern stuff has better suspensions and more
allowance for higher speeds. The other thing is that once one vehicle has
broken ground the others can make speed through it as well. Open ground
allowed 25mph with our little dinky Bren Carriers. I could do about the same
in the Dingo over open flat ground, slower in dense woods but I could navigate
fine between trees. With newer suspension and more horsepower in those, I
could get some faster speeds.
You can however find terrain features (eroded ditches that are 10 feet deep!)
surprising in a bad way. Good maps help prevent that though.
> At 8:18 AM -0500 10/11/06, <laserlight@verizon.net> wrote:
Very current Tactical MVs are pretty capable off road. They can't cross
trenches very well or deal with boggy ground terribly well, but if the ground
is relatively firm they can go. The 8x8
and 10x10 trucks that Oshkosh makes/sells are
very capable off road. Their MTVR, HEMMT, and HET are very adept. More so than
my old 2.5 ton truck.