G'day,
> The FTL I understand, but the biological material that
At present the only known biological material to survive vacuum are small and
can go into stasis (so small moss cuttings, tardigrades etc). Large biological
structures just rupture.
Pressure and temperature are the keys I would guess. So my brain is still
trying to get around how the SaVasku "evolved" (naturally or artificially) to
survive such to cope with both of these and big so big. Nothing I've seen to
date is plausible.
Cheers
Beth said;
> Pressure and temperature are the keys I would guess. So my brain is
The pressure is a problem from going *pop*, and also from volatiles
evaporating out. Most plastics won't stand vacuum for that reason. And don't
forget the radiation.
OTOH, the SV themselves live in oceans--the ships are biological
constructs, so they don't have to be plausible from the point of view of "how
did they get this way", only from the POV of "will this work"
G'day,
> so they don't have to be plausible from the point of view of "how did
Which I still don't see for the reasons you mentioned and more.
> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
Nothing I've seen to date is plausible.
The answer is simple. Jon T. said "Let this be!", and it was. (8-)
JGH
> At 07:00 PM 3/26/2006, you wrote:
Ahh! An actual example of Intelligent Design.
Best Regards, Bob Yeager
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
http://lists.csua.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn 3/26/06, Ah Clem
> <ahclem@adelphia.net> wrote:
Yes, but it's in a work of fiction.
Oh, wait...
Brian
www.warbard.ca/games.html
Brain wrote on 03/26/2006 07:05:22 PM:
> On 3/26/06, Ah Clem <ahclem@adelphia.net> wrote:
A work of fiction? I believe!
In truth, though, I have decidedly less problem with this than Beth. After
all, the difference between temperatures and pressures found in the deepest
trench, or active floor vent, and the near surface of the ocean could be seen
as extreme as between sea level and outer space. And, we're talking earth
oceans.
Who knows about S's original 'waters'...
All larger organisms that I'm aware of are encased in a layer of dead materal
protecting squishy interiors from inimical external environments. By
extension, a space craft hull to me...
Can I conceive of some super chitonous foam external structure that offers a
living space ship both strength and insulation? Ok, no cockroach is going to
go into space on it's own, but the properties of it's exoskeleton impress me
enough to wonder, by extension, of course.
Are there other solutions of which I have no clue? I have to assume so, my
ignorance is so overreaching.
I suppose I'm lucky not to be burdened with training and knowledge. ;->=
The_Beast
G'day,
> After all, the difference between temperatures and pressures found in
Problem is I can't think of a single large bodied (over say 8-10cm total
size) that can come up from the abyssal plain, let alone trenches and survive.
They tend to pop, or invert (nothing like having you insides out to kill you
off). That's ignoring cellular level damage that occurs on exposure to vacuum.
> I suppose I'm lucky not to be burdened with training and knowledge.
;->=
Bit why I can live with FTL;)
Cheers
Which was close to what I understand of the problem as well.
Things designed to keep pressure out don't tend to work very well at keeping
pressure in (different reinforcing etc).
Easiest to just say that Sa'Vasku are the masters of bio-engineering and
can "grow" anything biologic that doesn't need a conscious brain.
Brendan 'Neath Southern Skies
http://home.pacific.net.au/~southernsk/
> -----Original Message-----
IMPORTANT 1. Before opening any attachments, please check for viruses.
2. This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain confidential
information for the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient,
please contact the sender and delete all copies of this email.
3. Any views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and are
not a statement of Australian Government Policy unless otherwise stated. 4.
Electronic addresses published in this email are not conspicuous publications
and DVA does not consent to the receipt of commercial electronic messages.
5. Please go to http://www.dva.gov.au/feedback.htm#sub to unsubscribe
emails
of this type from DVA. 6. Finally, please do not remove this notice.
Beth wrote on 03/26/2006 10:13:38 PM:
> G'day,
***SNIP***
Didn't mean to imply there was, though even as large as four inches impresses
me.
Point I was hoping to make was that such extremes don't require the step
into outer space to challenge bio-engineering. Never meant that it could
be done 'off the shelf'.
I'd hoped I'd covered the 'exposure to vaccum' by suggesting
bio-mechanisms
to keep the cells from exposure.
Anyway, I'll quit slugging from ignorance, now.
The_Beast
Subject: Re: [GZG] Biology in a vacuum
Forgive my first post, but biological organisms can survive if the tissue is
dried or frozen. Rupturing occurs for two possible reasons: the boiling off of
water (or even fats), and the release of gasses either trapped within the
tissues (bubbles) or dissolved in the fluids. Thus, drying the external layers
into a rigid shell, as previously
mentioned, would protect the liquid-filled interiors. Indeed, if the
articulations are done correctly, you could even construct an EVA 'suit' for
some of the travelers. The external shell would resist the expansive forces of
the gasses held within, and protect the water from
flash-boiling (due to solar heating and low pressure). As for radiation
damage, enhanced enzyme function for genetic repair could alleviate much of
that; you could even construct a third DNA strand as a stabilizing agent, but
that's a temporary fix since cells can't do anything when the genetic
information is constrained.
Charles Morgan, Chairman Department of Biology Saint Joseph College
I don't think radiation is as large an issue to PSB, as humans and Kra'Vak
have to deal with the same issue and will probably do something
like have light-weight or active shielding against radiation. The
Sa'Vasku could incorporate lead or other dense material into their shells for
"space travelers" while "planet dwellers" would be transported in special
compartments that had additional shielding.
If I understand correctly creatures such as the mayfly uses things like
pebbles and sticks bonded with some type of glue to form a protective casing.
The Sa'Vasku could do something similar to bind large plates together with
their equivalent of spider silk. At a base chemical level I don't know if
there is a whole lot of difference between a natural polymer (spider silk) vs.
a synthetic one (kevlar), but if such synthetics are adequate for modern
spacesuits, I would think the natural ones would work just as well.
--Binhan
[quoted original message omitted]
G'day,
> Forgive my first post,
Nothing to forgive;)
> but biological organisms can survive if the tissue is dried or frozen.
> From memory tardigrades and mosses in stasis both dehydrate to achieve
I did start this thread by saying I had suspended my disbelief on the
topic though - one of those cases where suitably high tech seems like
magic;)
> At 3:13 PM +1100 3/27/06, <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:
But your pressure difference from the surface to the deep deep is 1 atmosphere
per 33'. From sea level to space, it's just 1 atmosphere pressure difference.
If you can grow a structure that can handle hundreds to thousands of pounds
per square inch pressure, then you can cognitively grow one
that'll handle zero pressure by being dead/rigid tissue from the start.
And if the tissue gets cracked to the living part, the living part would be
organically inclined to emit a mucus that hardens when exposed to vacuum as an
instant damage control function. I'm handwaving here, but then so is the whole
idea of large thinking bio constructs in the first place.
> I'm handwaving here, but then so is the whole idea of large thinking
Certainly half the biologicals around here don't do much thinking...
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
http://lists.csua.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lThe biologicals
that live deep in the ocean don't deal with the pressure by maintaining
a different pressure outside as inside. They are equalized inside and
out.
You could inflate a balloon at the deepest spot in the ocean and it would be
fine. If you inflate the same balloon in space it would pop.
Roger
> On 3/27/06, Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 10:03 PM -0500 3/27/06, Roger Books wrote:
Don't the deep diving sperm whales have air in their lungs? Their lungs are
probably compressible, but they still have air no?
> You could inflate a balloon at the deepest spot
If you inflate the same balloon with only a tiny amount of air, it'll be fine.
Just like the first mylar satellite was done to make a large radar reflector.
Overall, you're still only dealing with 1 atmosphere of pressure which
engineering wise is trivial to contain.
G'day,
> Don't the deep diving sperm whales have air in
For one Sperm whales don't go to the abyssal depths, they only go down 3000m.
They also do this by having lungs that are (proportionally) less than half
those of terrestrial mammals, but they exchange much more efficiently (so
while we manage a fairly small exchange of 15% on a breath they exchange upto
90%). They also have very high oxygen binding as their red blood cells are
larger. They also have 10 times the myoglobin. Moreover as a whale descends
the lungs are compressed (almost to the point of collapse) and what is there
is pocketed into nonabsorptive parts of the lungs and nasal passages. A small
trickle maybe allowed via shunts to vital organs. The muscles work off the
myoglobin and can even go into heavy oxygen debt (which they work off by
breathing like crazy when they surface). They also tolerate CO2 build up
in the blood. Normal breathing and blood-oxygen transfer doesn't resume
until they're moving toward or are at the surface.
Smaller deep diving mammals actually use the same tricks and go one step
further. They breath out or only take very very shallow breaths before they
dive.
SO basically whales do it by keeping air pockets to a minimum, which is the
way all deep sea creatures do it too. They don't have air filled bladders they
have oil filled. Less pressure concerns that way, less equalisation issues for
the degree of vertical movement they may do on short time scales.
> Overall, you're still only dealing with 1
Its relative change that's important. For instance you get some of your most
dangerous diving accidents in the top metre of the ocean, because their the
relative pressure is doubling, from there down the changes are only
incremental. So going from 1 atmosphere to no atmosphere isn't actually
trivial for biological organisms.
Cheers
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
http://lists.csua.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lIt's off-topic, but
have you seen anything on whales getting the bends? The article I saw
theorized high power sonar was scaring them causing them to surface too
quickly.
Roger Books
> On 3/29/06, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:
less
> than half those of terrestrial mammals, but they exchange much more
G'day,
> It's off-topic, but have you seen anything on whales getting the
Yep, its been an issue for many years now. Sonar is one possibility (more
strongly supported in some cases than others), just general noise pollution
causing disorientation is another, pollutant effects on behaviour (effectively
the poisoning creating a narcosis state that causes "irrational" behaviour or
even biochemical failures) are some other potential causes. There is probably
more than one answer given it has been seen at a variety of locations (not all
of which can be tagged as having naval activity in the area at the time) and
in a range of species.
Cheers
_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
http://lists.csua.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn 3/29/06,
> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> wrote:
less
> than half those of terrestrial mammals, but they exchange much more
Why I love this list. You learn some of the best things on here you might
not elsewhere without a lot of digging. :-)
Mk