[GZG] A number of scientists respond to Hawking's concerns about Aliens

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Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lhttp://journalo
fcosmology.com/Aliens100.html

Apparently, Stephen W. made the comment late last month. Doesn't seem to be in
the article.

Sounded for a bit like an offhand comment he might have made some time ago;
you know I went to the article's date to check to see if the article itself
wasn't from the beginning of last month...

I'm not judging if they're good points he's making, but maybe he should
have appeared on B5 instead of Star Trek TNG. ;->=

You can bet the good Dr.always knows where HIS towel is!

Doug

From:	Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com>
To:     gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
Date:   05/09/2010 06:50 AM
Subject:	[GZG] A number of scientists respond to Hawking's
concerns about Aliens
Sent by:        gzg-l-bounces@mail.csua.berkeley.edu

http://journalofcosmology.com/Aliens100.html

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Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn Sun, May 9,
> 2010 at 7:21 AM, Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu> wrote:

> Apparently, Stephen W. made the comment late last month. Doesn't seem
The comment was on a new television show, *Into the Universe with Stephen
Hawking*, which aired on Discovery in the U.S. two weeks ago. The show is
"narrated" by Hawking, though for the sake of clarity, and probably to make
things physically easier on Hawking, the narration is mostly done by Benedict
Cumberbatch (who sounds a fair bit like Sam Neill).

Hawking made the point that maybe not all aliens would be visiting our solar
system for altruistic reasons. Some folks thought this was a smart idea.
Others are somewhat peeved with Hawking. The big thing is that real, live
scientists are talking about this openly, something that not that long ago
would have hurt their careers.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/stephen-hawking/

(I read through some of those comments. One astrobiologist stated that our TV
and radio signals are available 50 light years out already. This is actually
open to conjecture. There's some suggestion that outside the heliopause our TV
and radio signals are so dispersed that they can't be deciphered, or even
recognized as anything above background noise. This has some unfortunate
implications for SETI.)

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lThe pertinent
thought here was that we shouldn't meet Aliens on their terms (as in, they
show up here with tech advantage vs. we show up somewhere else with tech
advantage) because we cannot depend on their good natures. They may be out in
search of resources.

It is also good to see that those in academia can actually discuss this sort
of thing now. SETI seems to have been embarked on without (to my mind)
adequate concern about who might be out there and what they might be like.

If anyone read Luna Marine, Semper Mars, and Europa Strike by Ian Douglas,
you'd have been exposed to the theoretical question - if there are so
many aliens out there, why haven't we heard from any? The answer in the books
was
'the Hunters of the Dawn' - some unspecified race that must have made it
unwise to stick your head up in the universe (for Darwinian reasons). A good
read (as well as the follow on trilogy) for the military SF and the evolution
of the sort of warfare that goes on as relativistic effects start to distance
your military from their point of origins. It's also of some interest to
Traveller folks because the original author was one of the Kieth brothers.

To Allan's point about SETI: Maybe it is a good thing if we can't be heard too
far out.

I see no reason to believe Aliens we meet will be more like E.T. than those
found on LV426. We've only really got human and Terran animal biology to go
by, but it seems most of the time, when we've met other human groups for the
first time, they've had many of the same sorts of behaviours we have (good or
bad). Some of this seems to be because of similar evolutionary realities.

Since we have no idea what alien evolutionary realities would be like, why
presume they'd be benevolent? That seems like a prayer more than a rationally
defendable position.

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lIf you ascribe
human motivations for going into space and other planets. There got to be big
$$$ in going to other planets, space exploration won't be cheap, at elast in
the initial stages and it's riskier than writing a blockbuster screen play so
the rewards would have to be enourmous. Â If you are playing for stakes that
large I can't see some human corporation being weak about dealing with local
aboriginies.  If that's how humans would be to others why would we expect
others to be magnanimous to us, especially if we were sitting on the galactic
equivalent of a gold mine. Â BTW arn't the aliens from LV 426 someone elses
bioweapon?

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lReading some of
the points in this thread, it seemed to me that maybe some people out there in
the great black think SETI has a more active role in detecting
extraterrestrial civilizations than merely listening? I could be very wrong
and just misinterpreting. If I'm not, then understand SETI is only listening,
not transmitting (I don't remember now what SETI's procedure is to be if they
actually detect something).

Which seques into Earth as a whole in transmitting. For the most part we are a
pretty quiet planet. Yes, we bleeped onto the cosmic scene back in the
mid-20th century, but a couple decades later, after we went to more
direct communications, microwave towers, satellite comms, and digital comms,
we've pretty much damped down our own EM signature. If the Bad Ass Aliens
missed listening for us during that little moment we were broadcasting wide
beam,
unlikely fairly they'll detect us SETI-style now (which poses a quandry
for SETI as well).

As far as biology on Earth, we have in the last, what, 10-20 years, been
discovering life (pretty much bacterial iirc, but some larger organisms, too)
that live in such extremely hostile (and in some cases nearly waterless)
environments as to defy what we believed were the requisite components for
life as we know it (I'm mostly thinking the life that lives near volcanic
vents down deep in the ocean and life that lives in asphalt lakes).
Extrapolating and drawing parallels, we could easily find life in such hostile
environments as on the surface of Titan. Whether it is microbial or complex,
time will tell.

IIRC (without looking back) I think John T said something about going into
space and exploring/colonizing other planets will require a huge
monetary output and there had got to be a really damned good reason to go. I
would put forth a few reasons (imo good) for us to be heading out into the
black:

1) Resources (yes, we become the Aliens on the Resource Prowl) 2) New real
estate to live on (the population on Earth is going to get to a point where
our planet can no longer sustain it) 3) Species survival (at some point our
star is going to transition to a red giant, and eventually give off a little
firework detonation in the form of a nova; you don't want to be around to see
either if you want to tell your kids about it)

Anyway, just my random two bits worth for a Monday morning.

Mk

TomB, John T, and Indy, respectively:

> If anyone read Luna Marine, Semper Mars, and Europa Strike by Ian

It's a question posed in just about any discussion of 'life out
there...'.
Given an even distribution over the vastness of time and space, and posulating
that even galactic civilizations most likely will have finite lives, plugging
not unreasonable numbers for rarity of creation of such empires and and range
of lifetimes, gives you 'nobody's around at the same time in the same
neighborhood to be bothered with each other.'

Rather lovely demonstration is to be found in Sagan's Cosmos series.

I tend to think of this as a high probability, though not a certainty.

The ID4 model of super-virus suggests some concern there as well.

> BTW arn't the aliens from LV 426 someone elses bioweapon?

Never explicit in the films, as I remember. Certainly makes some sense.

I'd say even more sense if they are some sort of 'trip wire'. "You may attain
anything you wish, just never leave your own neighborhood. You WON'T like what
you find."

> Reading some of the points in this thread, it seemed to me that

I believe I've heard of a bit of sending associated with SETI; very limited,
though. Nothing in volume, either duration or omnidirectionality
(is that a word?), to compare to the drivel at the start of the radio/TV
era. However, I think it was somewhat more selective in frequency.

For this discussion, what was it about our signals being degraded
unrecognizably leaving Sol's sphere? Did I read that in replies to Dr
Hawking's statement?

The_Beast

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lEver read The
Killing Star? ;-)

Best, Ken

> --- On Mon, 5/10/10, Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu> wrote:

From: Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu>
Subject: Re: [GZG] A number of scientists respond to Hawking's concerns
about Aliens
To: gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Monday, May 10, 2010, 9:39 AM

TomB, John T, and Indy, respectively:

> If anyone read Luna Marine, Semper Mars, and Europa Strike by Ian

It's a question posed in just about any discussion of 'life out
there...'.
Given an even distribution over the vastness of time and space, and posulating
that even galactic civilizations most likely will have finite lives, plugging
not unreasonable numbers for rarity of creation of such empires and and range
of lifetimes, gives you 'nobody's around at the same time in the same
neighborhood to be bothered with each other.'

Rather lovely demonstration is to be found in Sagan's Cosmos series.

I tend to think of this as a high probability, though not a certainty.

The ID4 model of super-virus suggests some concern there as well.

> BTW arn't the aliens from LV 426 someone elses bioweapon?

Never explicit in the films, as I remember. Certainly makes some sense.

I'd say even more sense if they are some sort of 'trip wire'. "You may attain
anything you wish, just never leave your own neighborhood. You WON'T like what
you find."

> Reading some of the points in this thread, it seemed to me that

I believe I've heard of a bit of sending associated with SETI; very limited,
though. Nothing in volume, either duration or omnidirectionality
(is that a word?), to compare to the drivel at the start of the radio/TV
era. However, I think it was somewhat more selective in frequency.

For this discussion, what was it about our signals being degraded
unrecognizably leaving Sol's sphere? Did I read that in replies to Dr
Hawking's statement?

The_Beast

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Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn Mon, May 10,
> 2010 at 9:39 AM, Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu> wrote:

> TomB, John T, and Indy, respectively:

When I met Seth Stostak a few years ago he made it pretty clear they (SETI)
were just listening, not transmitting.

Amending that slightly, in 1974 SETI used the Arecibo radio dish once to
send a brief message out toward the globular cluster M13 - some 25,000
light years distant. As this was a beamed message to that location, any
civilizations elsewhere won't hear it. And anything that might pick it up in
the cluster won't catch it for another 24,964 years. A response may take
another 25,000 years, give or take, depending on technology.*

This was more a demonstration that we _could_ send a message, rather
than a real attempt at communicating with another species.

Further, three other transmissions were made from Earth (but not with the
Arecibo dish), to a dozen selected star systems. Again, not wide-band.
The group behind these transmission (1999, 2001, 2003) is called "Active SETI"
or more directly, METI (Message to Extra-Terrestrial Intelligences). It
is affiliated with SETI in that it is searching for aliens, and that some
members of METI are also SETI, but SETI in and of itself is a passive,
listening-only program.

Seth also went into detail on how transmissions from Earth had gone 'quiet' in
the 80s (as outlined in my previous post:)), and that this is a concern for
SETI in how other civilizations may have gone with their communications. If
when SETI started listening they missed catching the blip of a wide broadcast
civilization before that race went quiet, SETI would not hear them now.

* - an interesting side topic to all this is is the subject of
interstellar, FTL, travel. Being a romantic, I am in the camp that believes
someday we'll figure it out and go. But there are strong cases against it ever
being possible (as we perceive things now). First, if you can go FTL, you can
send a radio message to a destination, then beat the radio waves to the
target.
So in the case of Arecibo-1974, it will be ~25,000 years before M13
civilizations hear us, but in the meantime we might have FTL'd out there in
our starships, found them hostile, and be engaged in an
interspecies/interstellar war.  Or discover they are vastly more
powerful
than us and we're trying to hide - but oops, radio signals are coming!

Another even more damning case against FTL travel is gravity. You generate a
gravity field because you are composed of some mass. If you FTL to another
star, say 10 light years away, an observer sitting at the midpoint between
where you were and where you are will see you appear in two different places
at once - AND (let's say they have the technology) detect your
gravitational influence at the same time from two separate locales. This means
you've effectively doubled your mass in the universe, at least for the
particular observer's location (and in the plane orthogonal to the FTL line
you flew).

I'm sure there are counter-arguments to this, but I haven't worked them
through yet.

Mk

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOne interesting
point is how common do you think people evolutionary imperatives are. On
earth, every creature competes with everything in it's evlutionary niche and
with creatures in adjacent niches. Chances are whatever ecosystem you enjoy
it's going to be a competitive environment, whether you are microbes on Titan
or some other environment, it's survival of the toughest. Â I have a couple of
cats. Imagine a society where the intelligent life form is based on cats.
Where the pride dynamics are really strong and in order for it to work
individuals have to cotnrol their base instincts to individuality. Also cats
are cruel, mine enjoy hunting and tormenting anything that moves just because
they can. Also cats are armed and know that everyone else is so there is a lot
of posturing and intimidation but beware if you cause offence, because they
will gut you like a fish. Kind of sounds like the Predator civilisation. Â If
it takes a considerable effort to get to another planet, and it would take a
large proportion of the world economy to get there at present. Even a
corporate business case to go to the moon or the asteroid belt would require
billions so to get a decent return you would need to find asteroids of pure
gold or similar just floating about. Otherwise no fund manager is ever going
to back you. Â I always thought that the Aliens were too perfect an organism
with a range of really unlikely capabilities so that it seemed more like the
product of intelligent design rather than random chance. Also it seemed like
the aliens could absorb and incorporate the genetic material of the creatures
they host in. They seemed perfectly designed to destroy creatures they come
into contact with. If they evolved on a planet, how do they work on their home
planet without ripping it appart and killing everything else and then
themselves. Or is their home planet so bad that the Aliens are nto the Apex
predator? Yikes that sounds like a really bad place to live. Â BTW what is
happening with the American space programme? It sounded like Obama put the "go
back to the moon" programme on hold because that would require spending money
now in favour of a giant double down game with the promise of a mission to
Mars in 20 years. So another 2 generations of American astronauts get to sit
on the ground while they wait for the Mars programme to get off the ground. In
the mean time will they have any capability to get into orbit or will they
have to pay for rides in Russian Soyuz capsules?

> BTW what is happening with the American space programme? It sounded

The non-American view is nicely summed up by Gwynne Dyer:

<http://www.gwynnedyer.com/articles/Gwynne%20Dyer%20article_%20%20Space.
txt>

Short version: The Obama plan is to put off paying for
a Shuttle replacement - or anything else really - until
he's no longer in office.

cheers,

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Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn Tue, May 11,
2010 at 6:32 AM, John Tailby <john_tailby@xtra.co.nz> wrote
> I always thought that the Aliens were too perfect an organism with a
Aliens were a bioweapon.

OR the Predators created them as the ultimate challenge prey, having run out
of other challenging prey in their huntings across the galaxy.  :-)

Mk

> On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Indy <indy.kochte@gmail.com> wrote:

OR simply as training aids.

D.

I assumed the 'bioweapon' comments were from other documents, such as fan
fiction, RPG's, 'Technical Manuals', rather than the movies as opposed to
speculation. I'll have to dig though my old books; in the movies, they were
sought as bioweapons BY our MIC.

Of course, I like 'Predators took them from a conquered race who created them,
none too successfully, as a bioweapon, see conquered, for use as a tool in
rites of passage. '

Otherwise, if the xenomorphs were created for hunting excursions, the Pred
ship in A v P will have to be named the 'SS Minnow'.

Doug

Damond Walker wrote on 05/11/2010 08:01:46 AM:

> On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Indy <indy.kochte@gmail.com> wrote:

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn Tue, May 11,
> 2010 at 10:19 AM, Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu> wrote:

> I assumed the 'bioweapon' comments were from other documents, such as

Actually, it came to me as I read what John wrote: "I always thought that the
Aliens were too perfect an organism with a range of really unlikely
capabilities so that it seemed more like the product of intelligent design
rather than random chance." That just smacked me of "bioweapon". Some race
created the Aliens to wipe out a competition, believing they would be able to
control said bioweapon, and...well, they didn't so well succeed.

> Of course, I like 'Predators took them from a conquered race who

That one works, too.

> Otherwise, if the xenomorphs were created for hunting excursions, the

I know where you got the ship name, but missing the analogy between the show
and the movie.  :-/

Mk

Indy wrote on 05/11/2010 09:31:14 AM:

> On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu>
wrote:

***snippage***
> Otherwise, if the xenomorphs were created for hunting excursions, the

Just an allusion to an excursion gone rather amiss...

The_Beast

Now that I think a bit, make that both A v P and A v P II,taken together for a
ship that doesn't return.

 The_Beast

Doug Evans wrote on 05/11/2010 09:44:21 AM:

> Indy wrote on 05/11/2010 09:31:14 AM:
wrote:
> ***snippage***

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lWith all due
respect, the most recent research on cat behavior I've read argues that what
appears to be cruelty in cats results from the lack of a killing instinct.
They have the hunting instinct inborn, but they're not born knowing how to
kill prey. Dogs have it; that's why they almost
invariably shake a chew toy when they pick it up (it's a neck-breaker).
Cats have to learn it. Sources available on request, though it may take a day
or so.

Have to admit, the "cat as amoral gunslinger" concept is a lot more
fun...for given values of fun. :-)

Best, Ken

> --- On Tue, 5/11/10, John Tailby <john_tailby@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

From: John Tailby <john_tailby@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [GZG] A number of scientists respond to Hawking's concerns
about Aliens
To: gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 6:32 AM

One interesting point is how common do you think people evolutionary
imperatives are. On earth, every creature competes with everything in it's
evlutionary niche and with creatures in adjacent niches. Chances are whatever
ecosystem you enjoy it's going to be a competitive environment, whether you
are microbes on Titan or some other environment, it's survival of the
toughest. Â I have a couple of cats. Imagine a society where the intelligent
life form is based on cats. Where the pride dynamics are really strong and in
order for it to work individuals have to cotnrol their base instincts to
individuality. Also cats are cruel, mine enjoy hunting and tormenting anything
that moves just because they can. Also cats are armed and know that everyone
else is so there is a lot of posturing and intimidation but beware if you
cause offence, because they will gut you like a fish. Kind of sounds like the
Predator civilisation. Â If it takes a considerable effort to get to another
planet, and it would take a large proportion of the world economy to get there
at present. Even a corporate business case to go to the moon or the asteroid
belt would require billions so to get a decent return you would need to find
asteroids of pure gold or similar just floating about. Otherwise no fund
manager is ever going to back you. Â I always thought that the Aliens were too
perfect an organism with a range of really unlikely capabilities so that it
seemed more like the product of intelligent design rather than random chance.
Also it seemed like the aliens could absorb and incorporate the genetic
material of the creatures they host in. They seemed perfectly designed to
destroy creatures they come into contact with. If they evolved on a planet,
how do they work on their home planet without ripping it appart and killing
everything else and then themselves. Or is their home planet so bad that the
Aliens are nto the Apex predator? Yikes that sounds like a really bad place to
live. Â BTW what is happening with the American space programme? It sounded
like Obama put the "go back to the moon" programme on hold because that would
require spending money now in favour of a giant double down game with the
promise of a mission to Mars in 20 years. So another 2 generations of American
astronauts get to sit on the ground while they wait for the Mars programme to
get off the ground. In the mean time will they have any capability to get into
orbit or will they have to pay for rides in Russian Soyuz capsules? Â Â
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn Tue, May 11,
> 2010 at 10:46 AM, Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu> wrote:

> Now that I think a bit, make that both A v P and A v P II,taken

I can think of better analogies. No one died during the Minnow's crew's
misadventures  ;-)

Mk

> The_Beast

At some point, only in our dreams...

The_Beast

Indy wrote on 05/11/2010 10:22:15 AM:

> >On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu>
wrote:
> >Now that I think a bit, make that both A v P and A v P II,taken

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn Tue, May 11,
> 2010 at 11:36 AM, Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu> wrote:

> At some point, only in our dreams...

You must have better dreams than me.  :-D

Mk

> Indy wrote on 05/11/2010 10:22:15 AM:

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn Tue, May 11,
> 2010 at 10:21 AM, Ken Hall <khall39@yahoo.com> wrote:

> With all due respect, the most recent research on cat behavior I've

I was watching the documentary series on dogs hosted by John Lithgow, *Dogs
and More Dogs*, and it described quite well how dogs descended from cats with
regard to hunting.

Most predators, particularly wolves, hunt in a pattern: "search" for food,
"eye stalk" when they see the food and sneak up to it, "chase" down the
food, "grab-bite" to grab hold of the food, and "kill-bite" to kill the
food, followed by eating the food.

Once a wolf starts down this path, due to its nature, it dearly wants, needs,
to finish the procedure. That's because it is so hard coded into them that
eating comes at the end of the procedure.

Dogs, on the other hand, have been selected so that they don't need to go
through the procedure to eat. Humans feed them. Therefore, we can, and have,
bred dogs to enhance some of these portions of the pattern, dampen other
portions, or remove them entirely.

The neck breaking is part of the "kill-bite" pattern, but not all dogs
have it. Hunting retrievers, for instance, are bred not to damage their kill.
They go from search to chase (even though the prey isn't moving) to
grab-bite, with the other steps removed.

I know our dog goes through search, eye-stalk, and chase. She does this
all the time with the cats that hang out near the dumpster at our apartment.
When she's played with other dogs, she does the grab-bite, but it's not
very hard. It's just a little nip. She'll play "rough stuff" with me, when she
grabs my arm, but it's not very hard. Her "grab-bite" instinct is
definitely dampened.

She also shakes chew toys. When given a soft chew toy, she will work away at
it until she pulls out the stuffing. I don't know, though, if she would go
through with kill-bite. I suspect no, unless really driven by hunger.

Here's the transcript for the show; the relevant section is just past the
halfway mark.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3103_dogs.html

You know? Every once in a while, you really get a glimpse of the dark side,
don't you?

The_Beast

Indy  wrote on 05/11/2010 10:46:09 AM:

> I can think of better analogies. No one died during the Minnow's

> On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Doug Evans <devans@nebraska.edu>
wrote:
> > At some point, only in our dreams...

Ken Hall  wrote on 05/11/2010 10:21:28 AM:

***snippage***
> Have to admit, the "cat as amoral gunslinger" concept is a lot more

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lThanks for the
article Hugh, it summs uo what I thought was going on.

What happens if Putin decides that Americans are not welcome to ride on
Russian rockets any more? He gets to turn the ISS into the Russian Space
Station.

What next, Mexicans and Cubans make up the space station crew?

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lMy cats know
how to kill prey all right and I didn't teach them. My Britsh Blue knows to
wrap his front paws round my wrist, rake my hands with his back claws and sink
his teeth into my arm. That's just like big cats on the nature programs. I am
very glad my cat knows how to play, because when he is serious he can bite
the heads off mice and birds. My other cat has caught and eaten wild rabbits.
I think cats and dogs have a different kill technique

I think that my cats think I am a retarded animal and need to be shown what to
do with prey. I really didn't need to be shown the lizard under my pillow.
Yuck

I am sure there is all sorts of research with a variety of propositions and
theories. My proposition was based on my limited sample size of 2 and then
extrapolated to an intelligent sentient creature. The desire to hunt prey and
the lack of a kill instinct would make for some interesting social dynamics. A
load of chase, catch athletic events and no domestic pets?

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lTo add to your
point, there's also the problem of applying the methods of anthropology to a
(considerably) different species. One could apply that criticism to the
sources I've read. And, as you say, heterogeneity is often the
mischief. :-)

They (a number of 'em) pick it up somewhere, to be sure. One of my
mother-in-law's cats is a king mouser (pigeoner, squirreler...).

Best, Ken

> --- On Wed, 5/12/10, John Tailby <john_tailby@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

From: John Tailby <john_tailby@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [GZG] A number of scientists respond to Hawking's concerns
about Aliens
To: gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 4:29 AM

My cats know how to kill prey all right and I didn't teach them. My Britsh
Blue knows to wrap his front paws round my wrist, rake my hands with his back
claws and sink his teeth into my arm. That's just like big cats on the nature
programs. I am very glad my cat knows how to play, because when he is
serious he can bite the heads off mice and birds. My other cat has caught and
eaten wild rabbits. I think cats and dogs have a different kill technique  I
think that my cats think I am a retarded animal and need to be shown what to
do with prey. I really didn't need to be shown the lizard under my pillow.
Yuck  I am sure there is all sorts of research with a variety of propositions
and theories. My proposition was based on my limited sample size of 2 and then
extrapolated to an intelligent sentient creature. The desire to hunt prey and
the lack of a kill instinct would make for some interesting social dynamics. A
load of chase, catch athletic events and no domestic pets?

Â
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lWhen we came to
your planet, you reguarded us with apprehension. This is
understandable.  We are, after all, a previously unknown factor -
foreign - alien.  And it's natural to reguard with apprehension that
which is unknown. But even when we reveled to you that we are beings not
unlike you, with motivations not dissimilar to yours, some apprehension
remains. This too is understandable.

We learned, from your history, that there were instances where a more
technologically advanced culture encounted a less technologically advanced
culture. Not all of these meetings ended happily or even peacefully.

There were instances where the more advanced culture dominated or even
enslaved the people of the less advanced culture, abrogating their destinies
to no more than subjects to a master.

There were instances where the more advanced culture stole or squandered the
physical resources belonging to the less advanced culture, selfishly
benefiting themselves while affording little to theie victims.

And there were instances where the less advanced culture was assimilated into
the body of the more advanced, leaving a rich and unique culture fragmented
and ruined.

And you reguarded the memories of these instances with shame and
mortification, and so you quietly resolved that if you were ever to journey
out into the stars, and encounter new and unique cultures, you would not make
the same mistakes.

In our history, we too have had instances not unlike these, that we too
reguarded with shame and mortification, and we quietly resolved that when we
journey out into the stars to encounter new and unique cultures, we don't make
the same mistakes. And for the most part, we have held to this resolve.

We have come to your planet not to dominate or enslave, but to offer the hand
of friendship and cooperation, to help you solve the problems the plague you
and in exchange gain insight into solving the problems that still plaque us.

We have come not steal or squander your resources, but to trade fairly for
them and in exchange offer our own resources to your benefit.

We have come not to assimilate your culture into ours, but to allow your
unique culture to enrich ours and in exchange we offer the best of our culture
to be used by you as you see fit.

In this first, of we hope many, diplomatic missions, we have exchanced
diplomatic niceties, trade goods, given and received gifts of music, art,
entertanment, and information, and we judqe the mission to be a success.

Our first image of your culture, received at a distance, was in the form
of a song - the opening song from the video program, "Baywatch".  We end
this mission with an appropriate ending - the final line of dialogue
from the feature-length video, "Casablanca" - "This looks like the
begining of a beautiful friendship!"

 - excerpt from "This Is Not Science Fiction!!" by Jack Colby - (rough
draft in progress)

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lOn Wed, May 12,
> 2010 at 2:57 AM, John Tailby <john_tailby@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> What next, Mexicans and Cubans make up the space station crew?
<sarcasm>Sure, because no *Mexican* or *Cuban* could *ever *learn to become
an astronaut... </sarcasm>

--
Allan Goodall            http://www.hyperbear.com
awgoodall@gmail.com agoodall@hyperbear.com

_______________________________________________
Gzg-l mailing list
Gzg-l@mail.csua.berkeley.edu
http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-lI think (think)
that Dyer focuses to exclusion on the capital costs of doing space the
way nation-states do it. States might as well do it that way until they
run out of other people's money to spend; there's no incentive to find another
way, especially when the method chosen also enables a state to drop crowbars
and atomic bombs on a recalcitrant fellow state from orbit if it determines a
survival benefit from doing so.

Well, expecting private space to shoehorn itself into the state shoe
(delivery boys for the ISS/Satellite Repair'R'Us) doesn't offer much in
the way of incentive to innovate. An incentive that might make a difference is
twelve little words: "Whatever happens more than 125 miles up is tax and
tariff free."

That said, I grant that there are two significant challenges: First, there's
no getting around the work involved in getting mass up a gravity well. There's
going to be an irreducible minimum capital investment that will be sizable.
How sizable is beyond the angle of my forehead to say, but if one can argue
that Dyer is overstating the capital costs, one may
equally argue that private-space enthusiasts tend to handwave past the
significant technical (and thus capital) challenges. I invite those who know
more about those things than I do to weigh in.

Second, with respect to "tax/tariff free," one has to trust that future
state functionaries will honor the agreements made to that effect by present
state functionaries. The next time that happens will be approximately the
first. (As an aside, I just read Tim Minear's script treatment for Heinlein's
The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, now available online. Pretty well done, with a
couple of hokey bits.)

Best,

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:29 AM, John Tailby <john_tailby@xtra.co.nz>
wrote:
> My cats know how to kill prey all right and I didn't teach them. My

Cats need to learn to kill and eat prey. The mother cat first brings dead mice
to the kittens to teach them to eat it, and then brings wounded mice to the
kittens so that they learn how to kill. This allows cats to adapt to local
conditions. The mother brings what she catches and what she catches is
available for her kittens to hunt. If conditions change, the next generation
of mothers teach the kittens to hunt what replaced the previous prey species.

My cats (mother and kitten) would practice on my dirty socks, but the mother
had already learned how to hunt when we got them. When we

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Gzg-l mailing list
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http://mail.csua.berkeley.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/gzg-l

My cat used to try to bribe us with kills to get let into the house.

A recent top 10 hunting cats show rated house cats as the #1 because
they have the widest range of prey and one of the best capture/kill
rates of all felines. Cougars were rated the best kill ratio, taking down
almost everything they went after. the Tiger has one of the worse.

-Eli

G'day,

> My cats know how to kill prey all right and I didn't teach them.

Many cats remain in a kitten like state through out life because of the
way we treat them (and particularly if de-sexed at an early age). Other
cats will pick up behaviour by learning it for themselves from the basic
precursors they're armed with (given sufficient time they can even become
highly proficient though they may also have odd idiosyncratic "rituals" they
go through as they reproduce the steps they *think* they need to go through to
be successful). Lastly you have ones where adult cats teach them through
interactions (which can happen beyond the home if the cat is allowed to roam).

Cheers