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those who know me (I can already sense the flinching...), you may know I've
been at this GZG thing for a year or ten now. For those who've seen some of
the games at ECC, they may recall I have a fair collection of GZG 25mm stuff.
I think my current count runs somewhere in excess of 1200 25mm figures, most
of whom are GZG. I think (given the boxes of unassembled resins I just found),
I likely have 50 GZG 25mm vehicles. Then on top of that we can throw in some
TAU vehicles, toys from Walmart, DLD vehicles
around a dozen in number, Ainsty/Denizen Ventaurians and mid-tech
Marines, Ral Partha Battletroops, WEG Star Wars, new Star Wars plastics, some
GW space marines, and so on... and one can imagine I'm pretty heavily invested
into 25mm. By dint of the work of my superior painter pal, most now have paint
on them. The total investment is probably well over $10K in 25mm stuff at
today's prices, if you count my seriously discounted painting fees. It was
accumulated over the last twenty years.
So that's my preamble. One can understand why I might not want to just
unload all of this on E-bay.
And now, I see GZG is shifting off into 15mm. I haven't seen much of anything
new in 25mm lines from Jon for some time. No new vehicles, no new
figures or figure lines to speak of - last I recall was probably the
Phalons or a few individual figures in the street level ranges. Lots of new
stuff in 15mm and nothing to speak of in 25mm.
Old Crow has produced some nice 25mm and DLD did/does, but I'm not sure
they're not in hiatus (which is too bad, because David does excellent work).
But not much from GZG - still selling existing stuff, but I own pretty
much all of it in profusion.
I've been a good customer of Jon, of KR, and of other people stocking Jon's
wares over the years. I'd like to continue to be a good customer for GZG. But
I'm pretty much stuck into 25mm and opening out a new 15mm range makes
marginal sense. And yet, that's where the market is. Brigade and GZG and
others are making 15mm galore.
Don't get me wrong, I see the advantages: Cheaper figures, cheaper shipping,
more bang for your buck, closer to WYSIWYG in stargrunt, let's you play in CM
if you want, easier to paint to a decent standard, lots of toys in the same
scale, etc.
But that doesn't change the fact I'm like a Dinosaur at La Brea. I've got both
feet planted firmly in the 25mm Tar Pit and no signs of getting out anytime
soon. The fact I too would buy 15mm if starting anew today is utterly
irrelevant.
So, to my questions:
1) Is there anyone else who is still a 25mm player? Are there many of us left?
Is anyone choosing to buy 25mm over 15mm nowadays when buying new stuff?
2) Are most 25mm players biting the bullet and migrating to 15mm? Or resisting
that transition?
3) For Jon T/GZG: Is there any practical likelihood of more 25mm models
coming out? Does it make any sort of business sense? Would a number of 25mm
players coming out of the woodwork and asking for some new 25mm sculpts affect
that decision?
I'm just curious if there are a bunch of potential 25mm consumers sitting
quietly out there or if I'm literally the last of a dying breed. If there are
a bunch of people in 25mm collections that intend to stay there, perhaps there
might be enough market incentive to convince Jon to do some more 25mm stuff. I
don't necessarily suspect this is the case, but I thought I'd put the
questions out there and see. I'd rather send Jon my money than a lot of
manufacturers for a variety of reasons, but if there isn't new product I'm
interested in buying coming out in a scale I use, that is a bit problematic.
I certainly understand the move to 15mm in the hobby, but I'm like a steam
train in the age of the electric locomotive....
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For me it's like this, prior to 1860 everything is in 25mm, after that date
15mm, for two basic reasons one I use allot of vehicles, and two the weapons
ranges and effects look better....)
Don
[quoted original message omitted]
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> Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, to my questions:
I went the other way about 8 years ago.
> 2) Are most 25mm players biting the bullet and migrating to 15mm? Or
Went mostly whole hearted. Still flogging off bits and pieces to this day.
Why. Because of the continual size creep of 25mm is basically dead in the
industry. Most people are producing 28mm+ sized figures now. Now don't
get me wrong there are some very nice figures coming out, but the tabletop I
need to to make them look kinda right with the odd vehicle thrown in has
vastly expanded.
Now for the record if I could get a wide variety of 6mm character figures I
would seriously consider yet another scale change. As most of my game are SF
skirmish smaller, allows for more range to exist on the table.
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Tom
Good questions all...
My personal opinion: True 25mm is... terminal. There are very few making 25mm
historicals, and those that do are hawking old lines. Even fewer in SF. The
28mm has superceded 25mm for almost two decades now. I have a hard time
picturing someone who is starting out choosing 25. I have seen a number of
suggestions on TMP for GZG to switch to the more contemporary 28, but that is
not in Jon's plan.
I believe Jon has mentioned he will get back to 25mm at some time, but the
fact is he has a pretty strong 25mm catalog already and is building a 15mm
line from scratch, so it seems only natural that's where his focus will be for
a while.
I think in a lot of ways, we are all struggling with the profusion of scales.
15 years ago I had only 28mm and 6mm, now I primarily game in 15 (for the
reasons you stated, but I was switching from GW to GZG, so the new scale was
not a hassle), but I still game in 6, 28, 40, and 54mm. I have bought a
limited amount of GZG 25mm, the figures because I wanted larger versions for
display, and a number of vehicles as they can still work with 28mm.
So where does this leave you:
- Sounds like you have more figures than Jon has in stock. You can put
on huge games and supply both sides - that's good - you are not
dependent on finding an opponent with 25mm.
- You do miss out on the excitment of new releases in your scale, you
will have to continue to adapt toys and 28mm vehicles (fess up - that's
fun!). Couldn't some of those 15mm GZG tanks make some great remote vehicles
for 25? Couldn't those 15mm heavy weapons make great weapons mounted on a
jeep?
- Many manufacturers follow the GW model and roll their entire product
line every couple years. GZG doesn't do that and most of us true believers
think that's a good thing. But it does mean there must be some reasonable
limit on the size of any particular line Jon carries otherwise it becomes an
impossible thing to manage. At some point new
intros must stop/drop to a trickle. I think you NEED a new scale.
Really. You often run big games, think about 6mm - GZG and Brigade can
keep your credit card busy for a couple years there!
Best of luck! Martin
[quoted original message omitted]
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, sounds like it is time to run some games! The toys are have are for gaming!
If you have what you need to run a game, so what about the size
of the figure. I would bet that you can run quite the game/campaign
with what you have. And, I suspect you can fill in the "missing" bits still.
Enjoy them, use them!
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn
From: Don M
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 7:24 PM
To: gzg-l@vermouth.csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [GZG] 25mm a dead scale? (For GZG and others?)
Tom
For me it's like this, prior to 1860 everything is in 25mm, after that date
15mm, for two basic reasons one I use allot of vehicles, and two the weapons
ranges and effects look better....)
Don
[quoted original message omitted]
> On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
I have limited space in my apartment. When I play, it's usually a smaller
scale (15mm) or a skirmish game in 25mm. My historical games are, of course,
15mm or 6mm.
> 2) Are most 25mm players biting the bullet and migrating to 15mm? Or
Most of my Call of Cthulhu figures are 25mm, and that's all the unpainted
stuff I have in 25mm. I have a bunch of 15mm GZG figures I still have to
paint, but that's going to come after my 6mm World War II stuff. (See the
comment, above, about lack of space.)
Funny enough, I have enough 15mm GZG figures for quite a while, but I need
more vehicles.
Here's what I've found. In 15mm, the differences between, say, typical NAC
troopers and typical ESU troopers really isn't that noticeable at a distance.
The colour scheme you use is more important than having the "right" models.
So, I don't see a need for too many figures.
On the other hand, vehicles are so much more affordable that you really can do
an entire company in tracked, wheeled, GEV and grav. That's a very expensive
proposition in 25mm.
I'd have to say that I got sort of tired of SG2 being my primary
sci-fi game. It's a good game, but I simply get tired of playing the
same rules all the time. Unfortunately there's not much else out there, so I'm
finding my interest wandering.
Having said all that, I've always had an interest in skirmish games. The
pushing of FMA onto the back burner has really bummed me out (I joined the
playtest list a decade ago for this particular game). A
release of FMA would pique my curiosity in 25mm sci-fi again. In the
meantime, most of my miniatures focus has been WW2 6mm, and 25mm Call of
Cthulhu.
> I'm just curious if there are a bunch of potential 25mm consumers
I would certainly play 25mm right now if there was interest in my area, or if
I had a way of drumming up interest. Unfortunately, while I can play RPGs long
distance I can't really do that with miniatures.
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> Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, to my questions:
I still do 20mm WW2 for this same reason but nearly all of my friends are
collecting 15mm now...peer presure to get my 20mm buildings and stuff out of
the game room might make me crack at some point. I have plenty of 25mm GZG
stuff but it is the only real 25 you can get anymore, most of my 20mm
buildings work with it and a few Low-fi addons to the table it looks
great. However...I have 15mm all my other historical ranges so I will be
moving to 15mm SG stuff early next year with a opening order at X-mas.
The buildings and terain will not be a problem and I can store the 20mm stuff
in boxes and pull it out when I am to old to paint 15's anymore and need to
right size my scale to my eyes.
> 2) Are most 25mm players biting the bullet and migrating to 15mm? Or
see above
> 3) For Jon T/GZG: Is there any practical likelihood of more 25mm
If GZG was making 25mm stuff I would be very intrested in buying.
> [quoted text omitted]
> On Wed, October 15, 2008 23:52, Tom B wrote:
All my SF[1] stuff is either 6mm or 25mm, and it's going to stay that way for
the foreseeable future. Pretty much everything you said
in your intro applies to me - I have several 25mm armies (I could
field a company worth of both NSL and FSE), and I plan to buy some more in the
near future.
I won't be moving to 15mm. Given how much time I actually have to play, not
buying any more figures if everyone stopped producing 25mm is actually a
preferable option to changing scales.
[1] My historical/fantasy collection is 28mm.
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> Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 11:39 PM, Michael <mwsaber6@msn.com> wrote:
> Tom, sounds like it is time to run some games! The toys are have
Do I hear a call for a revisit to "A Grey Day To Die"? (GZG ECC III).
:-D
Mk
15mm isn't immune to scale creep.
Wait a few decades and you're stuff will look smashing mixed in with the
current (then) 15mm lines.
By then, of course, Reaper will be moving it's 54mm items as
Epicheroicdemigod 25/28mm...
The_Beast
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inestimable Martin Connell said:
So where does this leave you:
- Sounds like you have more figures than Jon has in stock. You can put
on
huge games and supply both sides - that's good - you are not dependent
on finding an opponent with 25mm.
[Tomb] Agreed. I just wonder if what I have is the end of the line and
it sounds like it very well may be, which is kind of sad in some ways. Having
a 15mm line is obviously useful to Jon T and as you say he has a 25mm line,
but those moulds wear out eventually and you have a few guys like me who own
most of the line. I really like the look of true 25mm (even more than 15mm)
aesthetically, but I do understand the table scale issue. Stargrunt was really
meant for 6mm (6mm is roughly correct for 1" = 10m).
- You do miss out on the excitment of new releases in your scale, you
will
have to continue to adapt toys and 28mm vehicles (fess up - that's
fun!).
Couldn't some of those 15mm GZG tanks make some great remote vehicles for 25?
Couldn't those 15mm heavy weapons make great weapons mounted on a jeep?
[Tomb] Oh, the work bench is full. it isn't a shortage of projects, just
a shortage of things I want to buy a bunch of. Every time Jon came out with a
sale, I used to order a bunch of stuff. I find now that, since I'm not in
15mm, I don't tend to do that. I'm just not enamoured enough of FT to be a big
ship buyer and I have a lot of 6mm GZG already.
- Many manufacturers follow the GW model and roll their entire product
line every couple years. GZG doesn't do that and most of us true believers
think that's a good thing.
[TomB] Wholly concur.
But it does mean there must be some reasonable limit on the size of any
particular line Jon carries otherwise it becomes an impossible thing to
manage. At some point new intros must stop/drop to a trickle. I think
you
NEED a new scale. Really. You often run big games, think about 6mm - GZG
and Brigade can keep your credit card busy for a couple years there!"
[TomB] Me buying from people other than Jon doesn't really help GZG's
bottom line (which I like to support when I can). I have a fair amount of 6mm,
I guess I could buy a few more things here, but I can already field battalion
sized forces. I'm one of those odd birds that likes to have a 6mm to 25mm
model match where I can (hard to do, sadly). Point being though even in 6mm, I
don't realistically need that much more stuff. And the new attention has
mostly been on FT or 15mm SG so there hasn't been a lot (unless I missed it)
of new DS releases either. Ultimately, I can go off and buy 15 or 20mm WW2 or
something from someone, but that doesn't really help support Jon or my
favourite game (SG). DS3, if it ever gets into formal print release, could
re-spur my 6mm interest as could some more 6mm stuff, but I don't
necessarily see this as Jon's focus for a while.
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Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> spake lamentingly:
> The inestimable Martin Connell said:
Time to expand to division sized forces?? ;-) There's a guy in the
Flames of War universe who has built and painted the *entire* 21st Panzer
Division (1944), has done the British 7th Armoured (1944), and I believe is
either working on doing or is done doing the entirety of EVERY Tiger unit in
the war.
If you want, I'll start making up some TOEs at the division level for you to
aim towards. :-D
I'm one of those odd birds that likes to have a 6mm to 25mm model match
> where I can (hard to do, sadly).
I also, which makes it doubly hard when I've got 15mm from one manufacturer
(DLD, ForceXXI, etc) and have no 6mm counterparts to go with - or have
some 6mm vehicles (like a bunch from GZG and Brigade) that have no 15mm
counterparts (yet?).
> Point being though even in 6mm, I don't realistically need that much
DS3, if
> it ever gets into formal print release, could re-spur my 6mm interest
I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that things come out in waves. While
Jon's primary focus has always been FT, SG 25mm has gotten its fair share of
releases in years past while the 15mm line sat quiescent for a long time.
Perhaps like dice in games this status has merely reversed itself for the time
being, and we (you) will get some new 25s again.
Mk
Just like Tom I have been buying 25mm for years (28 of them!) I have a large
collection figures in several periods (Modern, WWII, WWI, Sci Fi,, Fantasy),
together with vehicles and scenery and the other half would do me in if I
announced I wanted to swap to 15mm. Actually I think so would my children who
now have their own collections of 25mm but rely on my scenery collection.
So what you're really telling me is that I should have sold off my surplus
25mm armies a while ago...
-p.
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[TomB] Me buying from people other than Jon doesn't really help
> GZG's bottom
[Martin] Yeah, I understand where you are coming from. GZG is one of a
hand full of folks I try to actively focus my support on (though with the
financial times such a they are, I can't order any where near as often as I'd
like).
I really like model correspondence across scales as well.
You're in a tough spot: What do you give the GZG gamer who has everything?
So, based on what you've said your top goals are: 1. Support GZG financially
2. Promote SG
Would you consider: Every time you sponsor an SG game at a con, give one of
your squads away as a prize? This might seed others to start in 25mm
(supporting Jon) and play SG, thus encouraging Jon to create more in that
scale. You would then have to buy replacement squad (further supporting Jon).
You might consider trying a new camo scheme or painting style to keep your
interest. This would certainly cover the two goals.
Don't know if it would work, but there may be the kernel of something
interesting there.
The only other thing I can come up with is buying 15mm (supporting Jon) and
sending them to me to use for SG (promoting the game). But sadly, I suspect
you would not find this as rewarding.
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> Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:55 PM, <paul@otd.com> wrote:
> So what you're really telling me is that I should have sold off my
No, all I am saying is the time of "true" 25mm is over.... There are just a
few companies out there still producing to that standard, with little in the
way of new figures/sculpts. Bummer.
--
Evyn
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tin,
The only thing really holding me back from packaging up the entire lot and
shipping them to you is the sure knowledge that they would, despite my
painter's sizable skill, look absolutely tear-inducing when set beside
your masterpieces. As a consumate craftsman, your skills leave most painters
well back in the dust. There is a reason that, when they were handing out
awards for miniatures painting, you could pretty much just have stayed up
there
last ECC.....
No, I can't possibly allow such a crime. Your figures should be on the board
in a class all their own.
I may have to think more on the subject and see where we can go. GZG still
has several official or semi-official nations for which they could do
some troops (LLAR, IAS, NFR, others). There are still a few odds and ends that
could fill out existing lines. Maybe all together this could get a few more
25mm models made.
And there's still a fair range of the existing stuff that hasn't been made
into 6mm.
One can hope....
TomB