> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:20:15 -0500
> I'm not talking to myself--I'm following up a question. :-)
Can you quote me chapter and verse on that one?? The rule on page 33 at the
end of General Fire Procedures specifically states that a unit (not an
individual figure) can perform two fire actions in one activation, but it
cannot be with the same weapon(s). The problem as I see it is that SGII is a
"squad" level game, but you are looking for those individual figure niceties
(obscenities if you're talking GW) that slow down skirmish games. As to the
question of a given figure firing two different weapons as both of its
allowable fire actions I don't let that happen in my games as it opens up the
game to the
hideous min/maxers who put figures on the table that have a)two or
more ranged combat weapons b)special close combat weapons (one guy claimed
every figure armed with the machine pistol "just in case" they had to close
assault c)special sensors to allow them to observe ants moving at two miles. I
mean yeah you can play that way but after all your friends catch on they
either won't play with you or will use the same type of weapons against you
each time you play. I don't BLAME GW and other game companies for allowing
this type of game play, I just don't encourage it. Right now most of the
gamers, especially the younger gamers I meet think that TACTICS is about
choosing the right figures or weapons or morale levels before a game
- EXCUSE ME, but that is logistics. Tactics is what you do with what
you are given to play the game or to achieve objectives. Which
brings me around to another point - what is the objective of the
scenario you intend to play?? -KR
> andy
> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:00:53 -0500
> I finally got the rules for Stargrunt II. My sympathies to KR for
(And
> thanks for patiently explaining it to me while I waited for either a
Make sure you have an ECM figure in the command squad - I would go so
far as to eliminate the devastators and replace them with an FO and an ECM
tech for that real command squad flavor.
> Light Powered Armor Squad
An individual can have more than one weapon but can only fire "once per
activation".
For instance, the robot fig looks like
> it has two weapons, and I was going to say it had one support weapon
You will have to add fire control systems to the robot and if you have more
than one fire control you could fire both weapons, and fire them at two
different targets if you wished. But if it had only a single fire control it
could only fire one weapon once.
I suppose this would be too much for a regular infantry
> grunt, and I don't see any special rules for what Powered Armor can
No. But they can choose which weapons to use or fire each activation.
> These guys will be facing Imperial Guard epic troops. I haven't
If the Space Marines have a clear superiority, then have them fight
at least two to one or even three to one odds. -KR
> I'm looking forward to adding in the Sentinels some time (size 1
> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:00:53 -0500
> I finally got the rules for Stargrunt II. My sympathies to KR for
(And
> thanks for patiently explaining it to me while I waited for either a
Make sure you have an ECM figure in the command squad - I would go so
far as to eliminate the devastators and replace them with an FO and an ECM
tech for that real command squad flavor.
> Light Powered Armor Squad
An individual can have more than one weapon but can only fire "once per
activation".
For instance, the robot fig looks like
> it has two weapons, and I was going to say it had one support weapon
You will have to add fire control systems to the robot and if you have more
than one fire control you could fire both weapons, and fire them at two
different targets if you wished. But if it had only a single fire control it
could only fire one weapon once.
I suppose this would be too much for a regular infantry
> grunt, and I don't see any special rules for what Powered Armor can
No. But they can choose which weapons to use or fire each activation.
> These guys will be facing Imperial Guard epic troops. I haven't
If the Space Marines have a clear superiority, then have them fight
at least two to one or even three to one odds. -KR
> I'm looking forward to adding in the Sentinels some time (size 1
I finally got the rules for Stargrunt II. My sympathies to KR for having to
put up with a distribution system that allows for him to have lots, while
people in some places have trouble finding the games. (And thanks for
patiently explaining it to me while I waited for either a store or mailorder
to get it in stock.)
My wife agreed to try out the game with me tonight. I'll definitely be going
for the basics, and I'm sure will leave stuff out. As I've mentioned before,
I'm going to be trying to do this with GW's epic minis, mounted individually
on washers. I'm looking forward to having a
battlefield setup in one end of the kitchen table. :-) Plus, one box
of plastics goes a long way. The problem will come when my eyesight gets too
bad to see the things.
About how much should I weight powered armor troopers against regular?
I'm planning to do something like the following. Note that although I play
GW's epic games (currently Epic 40K), I do not play 40K. I am influenced
somewhat by what GW says things are, but am not specifically trying to
reproduce their stats.
Space Marines I guess this would be a platoon. (Not too familiar with military
terminology, either.)
I'm saying that their boltguns are advanced assault rifles (2, D10), and that
the support weapons are D10 D10. (Not sure I understand this yet.) Heavy PA
have storm bolters, which I'm calling (3, D10).
All are slow PA.
Command Squad
Commander (Epic chaplain fig) + 3 marines + 2 support marines
(devastators) small arms FP 2, I D10 support (2 of 'em) D10 D10 Leadership 1
or 2, Elite
Light Powered Armor Squad
Sergeant + 3 marines + 1 support marine
small arms FP 2, I D10 support D10 D10 Leadership 1 or 2, Veteran or Elite
Heavy Powered Armor
3 Terminator marines (hmm, gotta make 1 the sergeant) + 1 robot
small arms FP 3, I D10 support D8 D10 Leadership 1 or 2, Veteran or Elite
Questions: Can an individual figure have both a small arm and a support
weapon? Can he shoot both in an action? For instance, the robot fig looks like
it has two weapons, and I was going to say it had one support weapon and one
equivalent to the 3, D10 weapon carried by the termies. Can it add both to a
shot? I suppose this would be too much for a regular infantry grunt, and I
don't see any special rules for what Powered Armor can carry. The Devastator
guy seems to be doing all he can to hold his gun up, so I'm not allowing him
to do it. But can powered armor with multiple weapons shoot different weapons
in one action?
These guys will be facing Imperial Guard epic troops. I haven't worked them
out yet, but I'm picturing squads of a commander, 2 heavy weapons, and 5
grunts. Small arms are 2 D8, support D8 D10.
If the Space marines showed up with the command squad and either two LT PA
squads or one LT PA and one H PA, how many IG squads as shown above would I
need to roughly balance it out? I'll give them some robots, too (similar to SM
one), maybe 3 in a squad together.
I'm looking forward to adding in the Sentinels some time (size 1 walkers), but
not until I've understood the vehicle rules. I've got some plastic
dreadnoughts that are a good bit bigger than the robots, and I guess they'll
be size 1, too.
thanks,
I'm not talking to myself--I'm following up a question. :-)
> Andy Skinner wrote:
That was for a figure that looks like it has more than one built-in
weapon, by the way. Not a guy carrying two things and juggling them both.
If not that, can it shoot different weapons in different actions? Can it add
its regular firepower to the rest of the squad in one action, and shoot its
support weapon separately in a different action? I've seen the rule that says
it can shoot the same weapon twice in one activation.
Andy spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> About how much should I weight powered armor troopers against regular?
Depends on type of PA and troop quality. I'd guess that two squads of 4
veterans with Advanced Assault Rifles and Partial Armour might be equivalent
to a squad of 4 Regulars in Heavy PA. Maybe about two for one, but the less
armour and lower quality the unarmoured troops are, the less well they will
stand up. I don't use much PA because I think it is meant as a stiffener in
the official setting rather than as a main force component. They tend to be
high quality troops, so hence should be rare to begin with, and the armour is
expensive and has a logistics trail to maintain. Ask Aaron Teske about how
fast one squad
of five guys in PA can destroy a squad of non-PA.... (1 round, no
losses)
> Space Marines
Organization Levels (Roughly):
Fire Team - 2-3 guys
Squad/Section - 2-3 fireteams
Platoon - 2-4 sections/squads
Company - 2-4 platoons
Battalion - 2-4 companies
etc. etc.
> I'm saying that their boltguns are advanced assault rifles (2, D10),
Reasonable
> All are slow PA.
Good choice. I'd say the way you stat them, they're worth 1.8 to 2.2 normal
guys. As fast PA, that would be 2.0 to 2.5.
> Command Squad
Elite status and good leadership counts for something too when weighing
opposition.
> Questions:
Yes, but it doesn't mean much. Unless you were tracking ammo, and most people
don't, why would you ever use the small weapon? At anything over 15 feet, I'd
be nuts not to use my rifle even if I had a pistol.
> Can he shoot both in an action? For instance, the robot fig looks
Robot might be a special case where you allow it to fire as a normal weapon as
one fire action and a support as the other (also fire) action.
Can it add
> both to a shot?
Could do it that way too.
> I suppose this would be too much for a regular infantry
Tis nasty no doubt.
> These guys will be facing Imperial Guard epic troops. I haven't
Better insure you've got at minimum a 1.5 to one ratio, but if these guys are
lower motivation, lower leadership, lower troop quality, and lower armour, I'd
suggest at least 2.0 to one.
/************************************************
> Geo-Hex wrote:
Except I haven't read enough to know what they would be for. This is my first
battle, and I figured I'd just add things that shoot for now.
> An individual can have more than one weapon but can only fire "once
I thought I read it as "no weapon may be fired more than once per activation",
not "no individual can fire more than once per activation." Is it worded that
latter way somewhere?
> For instance, the robot fig looks like
Actually, I think I intended to use the robot figure as a heavy power armor
trooper, a bit heavier than the other guys he's with. I should have been more
clear. Do I need the fire control because he's a robot (in which case I don't,
'cause he's not), or to fire more than once? I was trying to avoid vehicle
rules for this game, too, but maybe firecons are useful for other things?
thanks,
> Geo-Hex wrote:
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant "can't".
> The problem as I
I don't know about that. There is only so much individualization I
could do with Epic scale figures. :-) I'm still wondering whether this
can fit into the squad level idea. The smaller weapon adds fire with the unit,
the support weapon adds support normally. But I'd be content with using one
per action.
> As to the question of a given figure
But since there is no point system, can't we just balance this kind of thing
out along with the whole scenario? If I've got a mini that looks nice and has
a weapon on its head and one on its arm (and it definitely has a powered look,
not just a big dude carrying more stuff than is humany possible), why can't I
add it in in place of adding in two troopers that I could just as easily have
added in? When I lose this one guy, I'll lose both weapons.
Is there a specific rule saying that this guy can't add firepower and support
to a squad? Or firepower in one action, support in another, still keeping the
rule about one weapon not being used twice in an activation?
> you are given to play the game or to achieve objectives. Which
I think a simple encounter battle will be sufficient for my first game. I'm
looking forward to more than that later.
thanks,
Concerning my Epic Stargrunt II plans:
By the way, I'm planning on adding several armies, since I can do it cheaply.
I've got a box of plastic Tyranids (5 sprues, from the old system).
I mentioned IG, who will be mostly like what are probably more typical SGII
forces.
Eldar will be the advanced alien types, not necessarily the GW Eldar. Armored,
but not power armored.
A very few vehicles, used with caution. Guys might ride onto the field on
bikes or jetbikes, then get off.
Will have to do some teeny conversions once I figure out what some of
the other SGII rules are. :-)
http://members.aol.com/eaglewars/private/6mm.html#CIV
Is where you can find a ton of 6mm minis inc lots of Scifi DSII anf FT type
stuff.
> ----------
..........
> Is there a specific rule saying that this guy can't add
Let's think about what you are asking? I have a fire team with a support
weapon, say a SAW. During the firefight he is directed to put fire into a
position directly to his front. Meanwhile the Squad Leader is directing the
remainder of the squad to fire at a second position or perhaps at the same
position as the SAW. Is the SAW gunner going to put his Minimi down and pull
around his 16A2 to have a second shot? The two Actions in an activation I
think are best meant to represent the ability for a squad to carry out fire
and movement over a short period of time
ie approx 5 minutes or co-ordinate fires from two separate fire teams.
SGII is written somewhat loosely in some sections; this being one of them. I
think it is important to remember what is stressed way back in the beginning
of the rules "play to the spirit" of the game and this, from our experience,
resolves about 90% of rules queries!
Our club is running a competition in Sep and there will be about 4 Referees
floating who will have played all the scenarios in the comp and will have a
pretty good handle on the rules, but more importantly, will be ruling on the
basis of fair and reasonable as opposed to "but it doesn't say I can't do it
in the rules".
> you are given to play the game or to achieve objectives.
Which
> brings me around to another point - what is the objective of
> I think a simple encounter battle will be sufficient for my
Hey Andy please don't rely on the PA ruling the battlefield with impunity.
Every game we've played so far the PA have not faired well by trying to go it
alone. given that PA are generally used in a one to two ratio means that you
should have two squads of plain grunts to each squad of 'tin cans'. If the PA
are not used purely as shock troops then they will invariably get bogged down
by taking suppression after suppression and eventually will start taking
casualties! Having said that, it only takes them getting one close assault in
and the result is usually a walkover (literally!).
Persoanlly I place PA in the same class as armour; use them to inflict shock
action and deliver the coup de grace in an attack but don't expect them to
hold ground or survive long without regular infantry backup.
Cheers,
> At 13:00 05/03/98 -0500, you wrote:
Depends on your battelfeild. My opinion is that as range closes, Power Armour
troops gain more advantage. So a large flat battlefield won't help them much,
but an urban environment will.
> Questions:
The standard rule is that each weapon can only be fired once per activation.
In that case I would say, yes a figure armed with both weapons could fire them
in one action *theoretically*. I say that because I doubt there is anyone on
this (or any other) planet that could *hold* say, an assault rifle *and* and
GPMG and fire both accurately at once. So as an abililty I would think it
might be best to reserve this for PA troopers.
TTFN
Jon
> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 16:38:22 -0500
(SNIP)
> > you are given to play the game or to achieve objectives. Which
Andy,
Encounter battles are good, but adding the weapons and pushing the fire combat
rules on the first go round is not. Look, you are going to have your hands
full just learning the game, why don't you use the squad types in the back of
the rules for the first game or two and THEN go for broke with GW figure
types??
KR