> On Tue, 29 May 2001, Donogh McCarthy wrote:
> Nor did I.
I seem to recall this being mentioned on either one of the news groups
(rec.guns or perhaps sci.military.moderated) or perhaps one of the firearms
lists I am on....
If I'm not mistaken the General in question repeated the same routine over
several days at roughly the same time. An enterprising Confederate Sniper saw
this, firured out the distance and determined the amount of Hold off and
elevation he would need to hit something at that distance and on the morning
that the stupidly repetative general observed the lines from the same position
he was taken down.
Similar thing happened in Ran, though I don't know if Kurosawa was reading
Confederate exploits or not.
> On Tue, 29 May 2001, Andy Cowell wrote:
> In Ran, didn't the sniper figure out the shot during the day and then
Yep, that was what hed did. Dropped the string to the point marked by the
three stones. It was the same sort of thing. A marksman measuring and
calculating then when the time comes for the shot he's got everything aligned
ahead of time.
I'm fuzzy on it, but I'm under the impression the civil war incident invovled
the Civil War sniper measuring the range at night eithe by pacing it off or
something.
> Similar thing happened in Ran, though I don't know if
> In Ran, didn't the sniper figure out the shot during the day and then
Are y'all thinking of Kagemusha rather than (or perhaps "in addition to") Ran?
The sniper marked bearing and elevation to hit the parapet during the day,
shot the general at night.
> Ryan Gill wrote:
> Similar thing happened in Ran, though I don't know if
FWIW, not Ran but Kagemusha. Kurosawa was very influenced by American films,
especially Westerns, so perhaps he might have heard this story.
On Tue, 29 May 2001 11:14:16 -0400 (EDT), Ryan Gill
<monty@arcadia.turner.com> wrote:
> If I'm not mistaken the General in question repeated the
Ummm... no.
It happened, as I mentioned in another post, to Major General John Sedgwick,
of the Union Army, VI Corps. It happened on May 10, 1864, as Sedgwick was
directing artillery positions. This was in the opening moves of the Battle of
Spotsylvania, part of Grant's Wilderness campaign.
Sedgwick was reassuring his front line troops that they were outside of
Confederate range when a musket ball hit him below the eye.
He was not a "stupidly repetitive general", and was an able commander (one of
Grant's better commanders).
Other way around for Kurosawa:
Seven Samurai (1954) vs. The Magnificent Seven (1960)
Yojimbo (1961) vs. Fistfull of Dollars (1964)
etc.
> ------------ Original Message -----------
On Tue, 29 May 2001 23:29:15 +0100, David Brewer <david@brewer.to>
wrote:
> FWIW, not Ran but Kagemusha. Kurosawa was very influenced by
Thank you. I was wracking my brain for the episode in Ran (which I've seen a
couple of times, but only saw Kagemusha once). Oh, if you're into buying
samurai movies on DVD (I am!), "Hidden Fortress" just came out on DVD from
Criterion. A must see for samurai, and Star Wars, fans.
On Tue, 29 May 2001 17:40 -0700, Michael Llaneza
<maserati@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> Other way around for Kurosawa :
David is right, though. Early westerns (from the 30s and 40s) influenced
Kurosawa, who made Seven Samurai and Yojimbo in the mode of American westerns.
The westerns that you cite complete the circle as American (and Italian!)
directors were influenced by Kurosawa.
Fair enough, I have effectively no clue as to pre 1960s westerns.
> ------------ Original Message -----------
influenced
> Kurosawa, who made Seven Samurai and Yojimbo in the mode of American
> FWIW, not Ran but Kagemusha. Kurosawa was very influenced by
Hmm...perhaps you're right. Sounds like I need to see both again...
> Other way around for Kurosawa :
Oh, that I know. He was influenced by them none the less. Hollywood just took
the ideas and used them themselves later on.
"I'm not afraid of dying..." "ok, but it will hurt"
Hello
The story about the Japanese sniper is true, AFAIK. I have seen it mentioned
in books about Japanese firearms, before Kagemusha.
Greetings Karl Heinz
[quoted original message omitted]
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> On Tue, 29 May 2001, David Brewer wrote:
> Ryan Gill wrote:
It worked both ways, with 'a fistful of dollars' being a remake of 'Seven
Samurai', and 'Star Wars' borrowing from 'The hidden fortress';)
I'mnot sure Kurusawa was influenced by westerns (simply do't know). I
_am_
sure it worked the other way as well.
Cheers,
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> On Tue, 29 May 2001, Michael Llaneza wrote:
> Other way around for Kurosawa :
Whoops, I had these two confused;)
Cheers,
> On 29-May-01 at 20:22, Allan Goodall (awg@sympatico.ca) wrote:
Similar things may have happened more than once, I have seen the rifle in the
Ralph Foster Museum in Arkansas that claimed to have done a similar shot with
a general who stretched every morning on top of a hill. IIRC the range listed
was over 1K yards with perfect conditions and the scope ranged for that
distance. Could be exaggeration. FWIW I wouldn't call the weapon a rifle, the
thing was more like a shoulder fired cannon. I couldn't heft
it but I would guess it would weigh 25 lbs. (900M+, 11Kg for
those who use standard units:)
> Sedgwick was reassuring his front line troops that they were outside
I rather doubt the sharpshooter was using balls, more than likely it was a
bullet.:)
> On Wed, 30 May 2001, Roger Books wrote:
> Similar things may have happened more than once, I have seen the
Ah! That's probably it, too different incidents merged into one.
> FWIW I wouldn't call the weapon a rifle, the
I saw a sharpshooters rifle at Gettysburg. It looked like a typical rifled
musket, except for the huge barrel. It was incredibly thick with an octagonal
cross section. A small telescopic sight was mounted on top. I'd hate to lug
that thing around...
> I rather doubt the sharpshooter was using balls, more than likely it
It was a minie ball fired from a rifled musket. *S* I wasn't accurate, but I
believe they weren't called bullets during the Civil War. (Not sure when
"bullet" came into general use, though it's probably after the
Franco-Prussian war, "bullet" being French...).
> on 5/30/01 10:56, agoodall@canada.com wrote:
> I rather doubt the sharpshooter was using balls, more than likely it
Maybe shell is more appropriate although that usually relates to an artillery
piece shot with an explosive charge IIRC. With the introduction of the
repeating rifle and carbine during the American Civil War and that
some officers carried personal side-arms that were a type of revolver
there I believe they had a combined bullet and powder cartridge. Hmmm...maybe
I should dig out some of my reference materials on this war and see what they
were called...
;-)
> At 8:39 AM -0400 5/30/01, Roger Books wrote:
By the civil war they were using Mini-balls. Essentially a properly
shapped bullet with an ogive. The base was hollowed out in a cone and had a
metal wedge that the firing action forced up into the base. The edge of the
base then engaged rifling and spun the bullet up nicely.
The problem with rifles up until then was that it was a royal pain to force
the ball down through the rifling. That made a considerable problem to the
rate of fire. With the bullet engaging after the trigger was pulled, things
were much faster...
> At 11:36 AM -0500 5/30/01, Kevin Walker wrote:
> Maybe shell is more appropriate although that usually relates to an
Most of the revolvers of the Civil War period were cap and ball type. 6
Cylinders, all preloaded with a percussion cap, powder charge, wadding,
bullet, wadding and some grease to keep it all dry.
Brass cartridges were in their infancy. The lever action rifles were the first
to really show them off. They weren't cheap or common yet.
> on 5/30/01 12:10, Ryan Gill at rmgill@mindspring.com wrote:
> Most of the revolvers of the Civil War period were cap and ball type.
Of course. Doh! Thanks for the correction and further information.
> I believe they had a combined bullet and powder cartridge.
Hmmm...maybe I
> should dig out some of my reference materials on this war and see what
I'm not positive, but I think they still called them "balls". The term "cap
and ball" revolver comes to mind.
> By the civil war they were using Mini-balls.
"Minie balls" actually, named after the Frenchman who invented them.
***
Are y'all thinking of Kagemusha rather than (or perhaps "in addition
to")
Ran? The sniper marked bearing and elevation to hit the parapet during the
day, shot the general at night.
***
I was thinking of the shadow warrior, but it's been so long since I'd seen
either, I was planning a long, pleasant weekend's viewing. ;->=
Oh, the little TV piece on the sniper that took out the general while he was
shaving or sitting in his camp chair, which had the scene of the general
moving out of the way after the firing, then moving back in just in
time to die, had a blue-belly at the trigger peering through a scope as
almost as long as his rifle.
Has this whole off-topic topic gone on long enough to call time?
The_Beast
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