> According to the FT rulebook in 2098 the war between the LLAR and
Ok. So the LLAR is an extra-solar Power. Why is it a Power at all?
Number of colonies? Size of the Space Fleet (a la Spain circa 1800 -
big ass fleet but not as good as the Brit's)? Monopoly on goods
and/or services? Latin Lovers swaying the rest of the world (sorry,
couldn't help it...)?
The other, perhaps more significant question, still remains -
> > Who's an ally of whom in the GZG world? Would the LLAR buy
This is important because if you are going to have a supplement for
DS2 or SG2, its probably going to have to be Orders of Battle - think
about it, the generic rules are already out. Since there is little chance the
next supplement will be Games Workshop universe in DS2 terms, and we
(apparently) all want OoB's and Vehicle's and such for pick up games, we need
to figure out who's trading with whom (Perhaps not how many metric tonnes, but
at least who's in talking terms with
whom...).
> My big question is what territories became part of the NAC, which
Bud, I wish I could help you... I'll tell you one thing, South of the Rio
Grande, the NAC's got one hell of a Pacification job. I don't foresee the NAC
holding onto such large territory, with such high level of hostility, for very
long. For that matter, how do you
integrate it into the Crown? Spanish-Speaking for the most part,
with a good chunk speaking Portuguese and yet more people of French and Dutch
descent, it seems you are going to have to have military garrisons in every
major city (and some of the major cities of the world ARE in Central and South
America), and patrols out there in what's left of the Amozonian and Central
American jungles and Mountains of the Andes. I'm not a military expert, but
those Guhrkas we had a thread on earlier might come in handy right about
now...
Another question - Piracy. People have Merc fleets, but is there
such a thing in this Universe as Raiders in B5 or just plain old Pirates? How
about Letters of Marquee (sp?)...
And one last thing (I promise!)! Enough whining about Obscenities!!! Now we
have people threatening to leave the list! Jeesus, the guy apologized, I don't
think an obscenity here or there in common conversation is such a major deal.
Hell, I said "ass" earlier, just said "hell", and I think this message is far
more valuable than any on the two obscenities threads! And if you disagree
with me, fine that's your prerogative (sp?). Just don't bother to tell me so,
'cause I won't even bother to respond.
Enough! I apologize for the outburst there, but a) I felt it had to be said,
and b) it certainly doesn't merit to go into that waste of time and bandwith
of a thread we've got going now....
Respectfully,
> Alfredo Lorente wrote:
> Ok. So the LLAR is an extra-solar Power. Why is it a Power at all?
OK, so maybe it isn't a Power, just a power. The reason that I said it like
that is that LLAR mercenaries play an important role in the beginning of the
Mercenary War, 30 years after the LLAR loses its Earth territories. So maybe
they aren't big, but they are still out there. And with the UNSC out there to
prevent war in the Core systems, it looks like they'll never get their Earth
territories back, by force of arms anyway.
> The other, perhaps more significant question, still remains -
One thing that would be nice for the Fleet Book would be a map of Earth, with
all the political divisions shown. Then a simple sketch of how all the
interstellar empires are divided, along with a more detailed essay of "how all
this came to be" Whaddaya say guys? Please please please please?
> > My big question is what territories became part of the NAC, which
In the case of at least Central America the NAC has held it since the end of
the War of the Americas, in 2072. So any pacification efforts there have had
100 years or more to work, unless those countries tried
to break away with Free Cal-Tex. As for South America, it doesn't strike
me as being that hard to hold on to, as long as you were willing to pit the
various nationalities against each other. If you didn't want to do all the
hard work of empire maintenance you could always let them have their
"freedom", as independant nations, but with restrictions, like Japan after
WWII.
> Another question - Piracy. People have Merc fleets, but is there
Given the large area of human space, it wouldn't suprise me that at least some
gov'ts give aid and comfort to groups that prey on the shipping of their
enemies.
Well, I got out FT, which has the Complete (?) Timeline for GZG's universe,
and I guess I should have looked at it before posting. One
of the problems of checking your e-mail at work.
Could any of the British or Northern Ireland subscribers e-mail me
PRIVATELY as to for how long has the current situation in NI been in effect?
Please, DON'T MAIL IT TO THE LIST!!!! I'd hate to start a flame war over this
question. Mind you, I'm not implying we would, I'm saying we could...
Thank you,
> From: "Alfredo Lorente" <alfredo@bitstream.net>
> Well, I got out FT, which has the Complete (?) Timeline for GZG's
In message <199709041401.JAA14515@bitstream.net> "Alfredo Lorente" writes:
> Well, I got out FT, which has the Complete (?) Timeline for GZG's
I *am* mailing this to the list, because I think a case study of this sort of
colonialist history has a certain merit amongst the "future historical"
discussions we are having. Bear with me and I'll get around to the SF bits
eventually.
I am sure that we are perfectly capable of conducting a discussion on this
subject without starting any unpleasentness.
I am not especially well versed in the history of Ireland, so I'll happily
accept correction without taking offense.
AFAIK in the 17th century Britain colonised Ulster with numbers of protestant
Scots. They became the wealthier, urban population, tradesmen, "apprentice
boys". The descendants of said Scots are the "Loyalists".
This form of colonisation is about as old as history. You conquer a territory.
To exploit the territory you need to rapidly expand the population, found
cities and businesses and promote trade and so on. What you don't want to do
is populate the cities with the local peasents. You need the peasents to
exploit as agricultural labour (or as miners, factory workers, etc.). So you
set up colonies, cities, and populate them with loyal colonists.
You probably also end up with a gaping cultural/ethnic/religeous
divide between town/country and rich/poor that's a ticking time-
bomb. The poor rebel, along ethnic lines, against the rich. Or, if communities
of colonists get left in other countries then they
become a perfect ready-made excuse for their parent to re-invade.
Swathes of untamed Eastern Europe were conquered and colonised by
Germans, leaving city-loads of Germans surrounded by non-Germans.
Places like Danzig (Gdansk), for example. This situation came to a
head mid-20th-century. Somewhere in the Former Soviet Union there
are still German populations from the middle ages. There are also Greeks from
3,000 years ago around the Black Sea.
The "Bosnians" in Bosnia were, pre-war, largely prosperous urban
converts to Islam than were protected by the Ottoman Empire and then by
Yugoslavia, and surrounded by Serbs. No Turks, no
Yugoslavia -> ethnic conflict.
So back to N.I. and we see a fairly clear disparity in wealth
between the Protesent-Scots-Irish and the Catholic-Irish. If there
wasn't such a disparity, I doubt there'd be trouble. Rich communities do not
rebel.
So on to SF future histories and SF... it seems fairly trivial to churn out
points of conflict in the myriad colonies of human space.
So the NAC find a useful planet, call it New Needham, and turn it over to the
New Needham Corporation to develop. Who do you think gets to be the
agricultural peons? the urban plebs? New Yorkers? Englishmen? Nope, Brazilians
and Columbians from conquered Latin America, duped out of the Barrios and
exploited. The wealthy
classes come from English-speaking countries... so naturally
there's going to be ethnic trouble, freedom-fighters etc. The
other major powers will fall over themselves to arm the rebels, to piss off
the NAC. The LLAC will be drawn towards thoughts of
conquest^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hliberation. Many scenarios develop.
> Someone in this thread (the geopolitics thread, not the Madison one)
The Stargrunt II background section mentions Scandinavian mercenaries in the
employ of the NAC in 2170. So I guess that those countries are still
independent but on good relations with the NAC and NSL.
BTW, Swiss mercenaries are mentioned in 2177, (in NSL employ). Good to hear
that some long standing traditions are maintained!
> What ever happened to India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.? And is
The Indian sub-continent was invaded by the ESU in 2053.
Later their were clashes with the IF over massacares of Muslims by Hindu ESU
officers.
Personally I would guess that Afghanistan is in the IF, India is in the ESU
and Pakistan could be in either, or could well be disputed territory. I also
guess that there are IF backed Muslim "freedom fighters" at large in parts of
the ESU controlled countries.
As the Gurkhas still exist I guess some Nepalese managed to get off planet and
settle on a NAC allied world. I can't see the ESU allowing Nepalese citizens
to join the NAC military.
The PAU is described as a "federal super-state" as early as 2043 so I
guess the second of your options is closer to the mark.
Next question: where is the PAU/IF border? Somewhere along the
southern edge of the Sahara?
I have been following this thread for a while and would like to inject a few
general background observations---->
I think there are plenty of strange politics and people in the GZG universe,
and they don't neccessarily have to be a reflection of what is happening on
Earth! If you are aware of the emigration history in the USA you might see
parallels.
Most immigrants looked for areas where they had a similar climate and tended
to cluster there. The Russians and Balts clustered in the great plains, the
Scandanavians in the Great Lakes Region, and the early Highland Scots went to
the Appalachians; all these went to regions similar to their homelands. The
Pennslyvania Deutch were a group who's original country (Pre-unified
Germany) didn't even have overseas colonies at that time!!! As a matter of
fact many groups who came to this country (starting with the Puritans) were a
pain in the fanny to their home countries, so much so they were encouraged to
go. All you really needed was some level of trouble at home, Irish potato
famine, pogroms in Russia, the draft in pre-unified ( and the
post-unified
for the loosers) Germany and Italy! Sooooooo my point being you might
have anybody out there and more than likely several groups on the same planet
ie: the Japanese and Italians on different continents or major island chains!
You might have one cold cold planet where the colonist are Eskimos!
I would also like to make the case for the fact that history has taught us
that many colonies are more expensive than they are worth, both politically
and economically. Look at Russia!!! I suspect that in the GZG Universe, most
colonies will have to apply, and prove they are neccessary to a power block
before they are accepted. Most colonies will be settled by "Real Estate
Companies" not nationalists wanting to spend billions to put Uncle Hermans
unpleasant son where he won't embarass the family! Shipping companies would
have a major reason to start as many colonies as possible (as the railroads
did in settling the West!!!) I believe people will have read enough history to
know that the theory, that power depends on the extent of ones colonial
empire, died with the twentieth century. Now on the otherhand, if a colony (
independent or subject) controled a valuable resource, a thriving economy, or
an advantageous location. This has to only be a perceived value (the original
colonies {USA} and Australia were valuable - to dump Britain's
convicts!) not neccessarily a real value. Conflicts might arrise if there were
to be conflicts between different colonist of different origins on the same
planet.
Sooooooo my point being that you should find room for any political, ethnic,
or religious groups, without being limited to the main power blocks from Old
Earth. So use your imagination. The only accurate thing you can say about the
future is that it is going to be different!!!!!
In a message dated 97-09-06 19:01:25 EDT, you write:
<< So the NAC find a useful planet, call it New Needham, and turn it over to
the New Needham Corporation to develop. Who do you think gets to be the
agricultural peons? the urban plebs? New Yorkers? Englishmen? Nope, Brazilians
and Columbians from conquered Latin America, duped out of the Barrios and
exploited. The wealthy
classes come from English-speaking countries... so naturally
there's going to be ethnic trouble, freedom-fighters etc. The
other major powers will fall over themselves to arm the rebels, to piss off
the NAC. The LLAC will be drawn towards thoughts of
conquest^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hliberation. Many scenarios develop.
> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 02:08:24 -0400 (EDT)
> In a message dated 97-09-06 19:01:25 EDT, you write:
Excellent idea. We sometimes seem to forget the influence of real world ideas
such as economics being a far greater driving force than politics or religion.
> On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Steve Pugh wrote:
> The Stargrunt II background section mentions Scandinavian mercenaries
I don't have SGII yet so I don't know exactly how large these Scandinavian
merc units are, but...
Considering that there were Swedish mercenaries - and that these
mercs definitely weren't sponsored by Sweden - fighting for both Serbs
and Croats in Bosnia, I wouldn't be surprised if there are private merc
units around - not too large, not too well-equipped, but existing and
generally doing well by doing ill. They would probably be referred to, when
referred to at all, by the nationality of their leaders or the majority of
their soldiers.
IIRC, there were/are Scandinavians involved in several current mercenary
companies operating in West Africa and the Indian Ocean today. That doesn't
make the units "Scandinavian", of course, but still.
Later,