I want to pick the group mind about GEOHEX Terrain.
After a trip to the Friendly Local Gaming Store, looking for Star Trek hero
click Spaceships ($5 for a random ship NO WAY. I can better cheaper stuff from
Jon.) I wandered into the terrain section. Disappointment.
I own some GEOHEX terrain which is worlds better than anything on offer at the
FLGS. I wish I had more. Which got me thinking. (Never a good thing, nyaaa!)
Can I build more? Well... Sorta. Terrain how-to's are a dime a dozen
on the web. I could buy polystrene and make my own hexes or buy premade hexes.
But I can't make GEOHEX compatable hexes and shapes. Not on my own.
GEOHEX, the company, is gone. I remember. I know that Monday Night Productions
has the rights to some of the old GEOHEX products but not the terrain.
So, what's the state of the terrain?
I don't want any sorted details about GEOHEX as a company or details about
their employees. Google gave me rumors. I don't care.
I want the knowledge of how to make GEOHEX terrain. I want more terrain. I
want it 100% compatible with what I already own. I'd like mine to be identical
to GEOHEX's but I doubt I have that kind of craftmanship. I want the knowledge
legally.
Can I buy a license? Nope. Nearly broke and unemployed again. I'd like to see
the knowledge open sourced or at least creative common licensed so everyone
can benifit and build their own. I don't want to start a terrain selling
business.
If someone shows up saying, "Hey I own the license back off", I will. If
someone says the terrain is dead legally, and it has to stay that way, I'll
respect that, with proof. (You say you own the copyright, prove it. No bogus
DMCA kinda stuff.)
If K.R. is lurking around let me know. If someone on the list knows him,
let him know about this. His knowledge and/or blessing is desired, even
if he tells me to STFU.
Mike, I have two boxes, got them from a friend, a long time ago. Are you USA
or UK? Bye for now, John L.
> --- On Mon, 2/27/12, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote:
> From: Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net>
> On 28/02/2012 5:46 PM, Mike Stanczyk wrote:
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On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote
> Can I buy a license? Nope. Nearly broke and unemployed again. I'd
Not sure if it helps, but while not a lawyer, I know a reasonable amount about
IP.
First, the issue is unlikely to be copyright, I don't believe anyone has ever
claimed copyright over the terrain design, and I'm not sure they could.
Second, a couple of years ago I was curious and looked up the patent. I would
want to double check, my memory is far from perfect, but I recall the patent
was defunct, and only obtained for the US in the first place.
So legally it is unlikely you need to worry about licenses or the such,
however a) check this, and b) you might still care even if there is no legal
obligation to do so.
Of course if you were to do this for anything but your own personal use, or
if you wanted to setup an open-source design project, I encourage you to
have a chat to any friendly lawyer about the details before you get too far
along.
GeoHex was patented and he let it lapse. I think you can still get the info
from the US Patent Office. I visited them while they were still in production,
the key was the jigs they used for cutting. Every piece was
hand cut, it was the fastest and cheapest option (he did look at "casting"
processes with the folks that make packing inserts)
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn.com
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Mike Stanczyk" <stanczyk@pcisys.net>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 11:46 PM
To: <gzg@firedrake.org>
Subject: GEOHEX Terrain
> I want to pick the group mind about GEOHEX Terrain.
> want
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Cant you make your own similarly-sized hexes with a hot knife and
insulation foam? (Is this the 4" hexes or the 6"?) Assuming it's just for
yourself there wouldnt be any licensing issues and you could crank out dozens
of hexes very rapidly using a template. I work with insulation foam board
(which you can buy in varying thickness) all the time to make all manner of
great terrain and it requires no special skillset or tools to look great.
Other wise it's finding a friend with a tablesaw to create the pieces. My
buddy does his and the stuiff cuts easy and looks great.
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Michael Brown <mwsaber6@msn.com> wrote:
> GeoHex was patented and he let it lapse. I think you can still get
Disappointment.
> >
I
> > want
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Michael Brown wrote:
> GeoHex was patented and he let it lapse. I think you can still get
I've seen the Patent. Not helpful. ;-)
I've always suspected that there was something sneaky/cool going on
during production. I've always felt that the pieces fit together in some way
for easy production not just cool hills. I just couldn't see how.
I have family in the industrial machine design world. It isn't easy. It
doesn't surprise me at all that GeoHex was all hand cut.
GeoHex are the 12" hexes and interlocking slopes. Terrain Maker (from GHQ) are
the 4" hexes. With either the key is in the cutting.
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn.com
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Carlos Lourenco" <loscon@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:52 PM
To: <gzg@firedrake.org>
Subject: Re: GEOHEX Terrain
> textfilter: chose text/plain from a multipart/alternative
wrote:
> GeoHex was patented and he let it lapse. I think you can still get
Disappointment.
> >
I
> > want
I'd
> > like
> > even
I think you can still find the catalog or index of the sets to get a picture
of the number and variation of the pieces
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn.com
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Mike Stanczyk" <stanczyk@pcisys.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:55 PM
To: <gzg@firedrake.org>
Subject: Re: GEOHEX Terrain
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Michael Brown wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Carlos Lourenco wrote:
> Cant you make your own similarly-sized hexes with a hot knife and
Bigger. 10-14" across. Mine are in storage this minute so I don't know
exactly but the size isn't the problem. I can make hexes in almost any size.
It's the shape. Look here:
http://campaign-game-miniatures.0catch.com/terrain_instruct.html
I want mine to be compatable and that means matching: Thickness Angle of
sloped pieces edges of compound pieces
Matching the thickness is easy. Matching the angle is slightly harder. but the
egde curve? No clue.
Look at pieces #1 and #7. #7 I would bet is one piece beveled twice and edged
twice. #1 is a stumper.
There's also the possibility that some of the shapes are complementary somehow
in manufacture. Maybe when you cut a full hex down for a #4 you
get enough extra to make two #1. But I could never figure that out.
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On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 11:55, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Michael Brown wrote:
I have from the gents at Monday Knight Productions that the big secret was the
jigs use to make the cuts. Everything beyond that was pretty much as you
expect.
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The sloped curves would be easy to match using a hot knife, (that is, a good
hot knife) shouldn't be that hard at all. The foam itself is cheap and easy to
work with even if you mess up one or two you eventually the the hang of it.
That's the easy part, matching the flocking colors might take
some more trial and error w/ the mix.
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 9:02 PM, Evyn MacDude <infojunky@ceecom.net> wrote:
> textfilter: chose text/plain from a multipart/alternative
wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Michael Brown wrote:
They cut with a hot wire. Flock is easy, Woodland Scenics T-49 Mixed
Turf. I use a latex (house paint) in an olive or other green as the base coat,
apply flock while wet (I have boards that are almost 10 years old and still
hold the turf).
If you have some GeoHex shaping the jigs might not be that hard. I might need
to do this myself...
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn.com
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Carlos Lourenco" <loscon@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:49 PM
To: <gzg@firedrake.org>
Subject: Re: GEOHEX Terrain
> textfilter: chose text/plain from a multipart/alternative
wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Michael Brown wrote:
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I've made a number of square(ish) terrain boards from 12"-24", a lot of
stand alone styrofoam terrain, cast some resins, and own a lot of geohex. My
experience has been the following:
a) Jigs are necessary. I used a guide, but even then getting perfect squares
(the large razor knife liked to lean one way or the other and the hot knife
liked to sometimes bow and cut a little off line) is tough. A full jig is
necessary. For all the different hex shapes, that's a bit more involved.
b) To match geo-hex foam, you not only need to match the size and shapes
and where the cut outs intersect edges, you need to also match the sort of
foam used. There are lots of types and each is slightly different. If
Geo-hex had failings, they were that edges were very vulnerable and that
someone leaning slightly on the board could dent them. (I have about $500
worth of the stuff - 100+ pcs). The corner lock idea was interesting,
but not worth putting down most of the time (plus it would chew up your
corners).
c) Geohex used flock by the bucketload and that stuff ain't cheap. They had
big enough trays to lay their pieces in.
d) The adhesive they used was very uniform and didn't tend to cause
clumping with the flock. If you've made terrain with PVA/water mixes,
you may realize that at times you'll get some clumping in the flock either on
the work piece or in the flock remaining for the next pieces. Whatever they
used as adhesive, it was very uniform and I never saw a clumped bit of flock
on any piece I got.
e) Hand-cut is a bit a of a misnomer. I think they must have used a
tabletop wirecutter which let them set angles precisely and jigs as well.
That's not just a hand-held hot wire or knife.
For a while, Geohex produced a line of non-geo-hex hills that were made
from foam and painted and were *cheap*. They did away with them because they
claimed there wasn't much demand, but this staggers me as every gamer I know
that has seen them says 'I love those hills, where did you get them?'. I think
they did away with them because they distracted from the
more pricey and fiddly geo-hex.
KR also had a vac-former that he did craters and tents with until OSHA
issues convinced him the vac-former was too much of a bother. I like the
idea of having a vac-former that can use heavy stock as you can make
some great craters, pup tents, etc. (even hills) but that's an expensive rig
if
you count filtering/ventillation etc.
My friend Kevin built the desert boards we used at ECC a couple of years
back. They were really good - styrofoam,
PVA/water/sand/painting/PVA-water
to seal, plus a river, waterfall, and pond. He's going into the custom terrain
making and figure painting business on the side soonish. (For those who were
at ECC, this is the fellow that won all 4 painting categories,
though he disputes whether he should have won SG-25 or SG-15 as there
was a lot of good competition and we both agreed the scratchbuilt FT ships
with
the 'pepsi/budweiser/etc' containers was great).
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> My friend Kevin built the desert boards we used at ECC a couple of
Tell Kevin to dispute away. He won the SG-25 category by 0.5 points. And
iirc, the SG-15 category by 1 or 2 points.
Mk
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Tom, thanks for the informative post.
Could you explain the difference between a "jig" and a "guide"? They could
mean the same thing; they could mean an Irish dance and a movie
usher;...
When does a guide stop being a guide and become a jig?
Martin
[quoted original message omitted]
Template versus structure holding tool and medium in position?
I've a 'table' wire cutter that holds the wire at a fixed position, its own
'jig'. The angle is much more precise then if I were holding the tool in my
hand, and used a template laid on the foam's surface.
Unfortunately, the arm swivels right to left, instead of back and forth to the
arm, so the width of pieces is fairly small. I'd like to bevel large levels of
hills and cliffs. I think I mentioned previously my mad scheme of collapsible
mountains.
Sorry for popping in, TomB, but I'm studiously avoiding a RL work problem, and
had to do SOMETHING else.
Doug
[quoted original message omitted]
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> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 06:04, <mxconnell@optonline.net> wrote:
> Could you explain the difference between a "jig" and a "guide"?
Technically, nothing. A jig is a guide or template that allows you to
repeatedly make the same cut. I suspect Tom's differentiation of the two is
probably a mater of how elaborate said jig is.
As for the tool, some form of hot-wire cutter is probably correct. The
only
real difference between my Handheld and Table-top Hot-wire cutters is
how
the Hot-wire is held and the power switches. The only change I would
make now is a beefier Power Supply and maybe either a foot or dial control
rheostat, so adding a finer control to my heat settings. Right now both are
run by 9.6volt DC, 1amp wall warts that I picked up surplus from a salvage
shop.
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In my example:
I was cutting squares, so I used a large carpenter's square as a guide held
onto the work piece by a bit of hand pressure. I tried to cut straight
vertical, but across the 0.5 to 1" working depth (depended on which slab of
foam), I got some deviance inward or outward between top and bottom of the cut
because I either didn't hold it quite straight or the blade flexed a bit.
To me, a jig would hold any blade at both ends, meaning you would not have
this sort of deviation, but the issue there then is 'how to saw'? Pulling a
work piece across a blade with no movement without tearing requires a damnably
sharp blade.
Using a wire, you need a sturdy enough wire under enough tension to keep it
from deflecting in the middle even if it is held top and bottom. I wonder
sometimes if some sort of large heated knife would be the answer, but that
would be a very persnickety thing as well since you don't want to ever stop
with something like that for even a moment and cuts would have to be fast and
precise. Even with a wire, hesitation can burn a work piece.
Having a tabletop cutter with the wire suspended, held at both ends,
adjustable as to angle for bevelling, and with enough clearance to let you run
big work stock through it is no mean feat. There are commercial cutters like
this and you can build them at home, but they take up some space.
It's a pity nobody has convinced 3M to spit out 1' hexagons....
TomB
> It's a pity nobody has convinced 3M to spit out 1' hexagons....
Geo-Hex used to send plain hexes for padding. I assume other people did
too, but I've made some pieces from those, having the hex part already cut. I
just needed to match the slope on the edges, because I didn't care whether
about stacking on the hill pieces (the one with no slope, just a step).
I think the only time you need to match the whole outline is in that
case--stacking hill on hill, or a sloped on a hill. Everything else
would just be a tolerance, to make sure a "smaller" piece didn't protrude over
the edge of a "larger" one.
I've mostly made transition pieces for the mountain pieces.
I wrote a nice 3D layout design program once. I'd like to port that to work in
a browser. I guess there wouldn't be a lot of demand anymore.
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> On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 11:27, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
> Using a wire, you need a sturdy enough wire under enough tension to
The top loop on my Hot-wire Jigsaw is tensioned by an arraignment of a
Long
shanked eye-bolt guide washers and wingnut. I use Niccrhome wire as the
cutting element.
You might consider cutting two templates, then clamping them on either side
of your foam. With a hot-wire cutter then you have positive guide on
both sides of the cut. The quick way to do this is make the templates out of
foamcore then use masking tape along edges to protect them from the
Hot-wire.
> I wonder
Hot knives are more finicky than Hot wire cutters, they retain heat better
durning the cut, but your supposition is correct your cuts need to be
continuous. They also have a much larger wastage percentage, as the cut width
is at least the width of the blade. (a nice hot knife can
be acquired from HarborFreight fo about $20) Consider this, a Hot-knife
is the foam equivalent of a industrial Chainsaw....
Having a tabletop cutter with the wire suspended, held at both ends,
> adjustable as to angle for bevelling, and with enough clearance to let
Yep. Tools tend to scale with the size you are working with.
> It's a pity nobody has convinced 3M to spit out 1' hexagons....
Game Crafter makes 12 inch hexes in MDF, I have been considering buying a
couple for use as Jigs.
< DE-LURK >
Wow. I thought everyone made their own. I've been making Geo-Hex
compatible terrain for myself and friends since '99.
> --- On Tue, 2/28/12, Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net> wrote:
> From: Mike Stanczyk <stanczyk@pcisys.net>
> Bigger. 10-14" across. Mine are in storage this minute so I don't
~12" flat-to-flat (actually about 11 7/8")
and just a hair under 14" corner-to-corner.
The THARCO brand boxes that Geo-Hex was shipped in were 12x14 interior
dimensions, so the hex had to be slightly smaller than this to fit.
> It's the shape. Look here:
I have made both Rough (vertical face) and Sloped pieces.
First, get a real hot knife with a blade, not a wire cutter.
http://www.demandproducts.com/EIFS-items/item.php?l1=3,15&sku=GROUPHKT
This can be spendy. However, they are becoming more common as the construction
industry has moved to extruded foam insulation. I got mine from IASCO
(Industrial Arts Supply COmpany) in Minnesota. If you know a high school
teacher, you can get a better price.
The hot knife blade gives a beautiful, smooth face, even on complex curves, as
long as they are not too tight.
> Matching the thickness is easy. Matching the angle is
Basic Geo-Hex is 3/4" expanded polystyrene, available at any Menards or
Home Depot.
Mounctainscape and Cavernscape are triple height. This is more
problematic, since readily available material is 3/4", 1.5" (double
height), and 3" (quadruple).
> but the egde curve? No clue.
I made templates from the pieces in my Geo-Hex sets, then made jigs from
the templates. I used 1/4" foamcore cut with a foamcore cutter that I
got at OfficeMax. If I were to redo the jigs now, I would make them
from 1/4" MDF, cut them on my Unisaw, and finish the curves with a drum
sander.
The trick is that the Rough Terrain profile uses two identical jigs (top and
bottom) and the sloped pieces need a *second pass* with another set
of non-identical (and different from the Rough contour) jigs (top and
bottom) to form the slope from a Rough piece. Look very closely at the bottom
edge of the sloped pieces. There is a small vertical portion
(about 1/16-1/8"). This is because the sharp edge of the slope has a
tendency to melt away from the hot blade or wire, forming a ragged edge if cut
in a single pass.
> Look at pieces #1 and #7. #7 I would bet is one piece
All of the pieces can be cut from a full hex blank in the same pattern that
the instructions give for forming streams. #1 comes from the scrap of a #5 #2
comes from the scrap of a #4 #3 comes from the scrap of a(nother) #3:)
#7 is two #4 cut back to back.
There are also a number of shapes that I cut for my own use based on the
Cavenscape shapes.
-Cavernscape #8 is a #5 cut in the back of a #3
-Cavernscape #9R and 9L are a #5 cut in the back of a #4, two
possibilities.
-Two shapes with 2x #5 cuts (a 2-2 and a 1-3)
-and a trefoil made with 3x #5 cuts.
-A bunch of promitory and box canyon shapes which can also be combined
to make hairpin curves in rivers/streams.
-Two sizes of lakes/craters in the middle of a whole hex.
-Cavernscape #0 made from the center of a #6 box-canyon or a large
crater/lake. (the #6 canyon is essentially a large lake with an outlet)
The Rough-Slope transition pieces are made by cutting the slope of one
size larger piece e.g. use a #3 slope jig on a #2 piece to make a #2
transition.
I also made Rough and Sloped pieces that were straight to run along the
straight roads and connect to the other Rough and Straight profiles.
The "Sunken Road" pieces from Geo-Hex don't fit with the Rough terrain
pieces.
Finishing is with Howard Hues Geo-Hex Green, Geo-Hex Desert, Geo-Hex
Brown, and Geo-Hex Tan, and Woodland Scenics Fine Turf Green Blend and
Earth Blend (Desert)
J
As a follow-up, I pulled out a box of my custom pieces and took some
photos.
The green pieces I made. The Desert tan pieces are factory Geohex for shape
and height reference. The green sloped piece with the road is factory GeoHex
for flock & finish color match. The figure on 25mm base is for scale for
anyone not familiar with GeoHex.
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very nice work J, you need to put up a tutorial on Youtube or something!
Don
Nice job, J.L.
I did find the 'island in the moat' pieces a bit hilarious.... clearly
landscaped rather than natural terrain....:0)
Is it a camera/lighting trick or is the green of your hexes a bit
different than your grassmat's green? It looks a bit more 'billiard table
green' than 'grass green' to me.
I think one of the reasons Geohex bevelled the edges a second time, other than
any roughness from the cuts, is that very thin protrusions in foam will not
handle transport well (damage easily). A small bevel can make the piece
slightly more damage resistant.
I have so much geohex (about 100 pcs) and never take it out because my table
lacks edges and it has shown itself prone to 'galoot player damage'.
Nowadays, I've become a fan of 'terrain pieces' - hills, etc. made out
of styrene but deployed to the table as a single piece. No fiddly
assembly, no corner locks, no player-bumps-hill followed by a fiddly
realignment, etc. Part of this is I never had a table edge that was
raised nor enough of the edge pieces to finish hexes into table-edges.
I do like square terrain boards as a base for a game. A single 1x1 or 2x2
terrain board can be quite useful without being too fiddly to layout and keep
squared up. But I like the 2" thick variety and made from either the blue or
pink foam instead of the white stuff. It's more expensive but it is tougher in
use.
> --- On Tue, 3/6/12, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com>
Thanks:)
> I did find the 'island in the moat' pieces a bit hilarious.... clearly
It does look a little silly, but I was trying to show how the pieces are cut
from a whole hex
> Is it a camera/lighting trick or is the green of your hexes a bit
There are two pictures of the canyon pieces all stacked up that are labeled
"no flash" that show the colors just in sunlight. That being said, there is
variation in the factory geohex pieces. I can tell which set one of my pieces
came from based on color. Some sets are more green, or more yellowish, or more
or less saturated. I don't know if this is due to differences in the flock, in
the underlying paint (or felt in the case of the mat), or if they fade with
age. There is less variation between the desert sets.
In some of the photos, there appears to be large spots or blotches in the
green flock. This isn't visible in person.
J
I only use GeoHex for terrain features. My table is flocked and the same
color as GeoHex. I also use a little tape (masking/packing) on the back
side to keep features together.
Michael Brown mwsaber6@msn.com
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Tom B" <kaladorn@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 12:36 AM
To: <gzg@firedrake.org>
Subject: Re: GEOHEX Terrain
> Nice job, J.L.
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I wouldn't worry about exact color matching of flock shades, next time you fly
over a piece of land look down and you will see sufficient variation. All the
boards over time, and with use will fade and that only makes the look ten
times better anyway. One can always sprinkle some extra flock, ballast and
crap over your hexes and boards as well. To many miniatures battle already
suffer from the terrible malady of looking like they are
fought on the well-manicured front lawn of the white house.
Don't let anyone scare you out of experimenting! Let go off the "anal side" of
wargaming and try!
Los
p.s. another thing to help keep foam boards and hexes together are those
T-pins you can pick up at an office supply store. They work wonders.