Greetings fellow Thrusters (and Siders and Grunters)
I took a week of vacation after GenCon so after catching up on the 500+
emails waiting for me, here is my view if GenCon '97.
List Members. It was great meeting the people behind the posts I had been
reading. Sorry Mark for the way I rolled during the list game, It must have
been
those darn new 2 color dice from Chessex and the speckled sides (1-3)
were heavier than the solid sides (4-6). I enjoyed the chance to talk
with other people who understand and enjoy these games. The 1:00 am
discussions on FT and its future over a beer and the only real meal of the day
were great.
I met a bunch of other gamers who were judges for the GeoHex games and they
were great too. If you ever get the chance to go to GenCon and get in with
these guys, make sure you get to Lew Stoneking's for the gathering the night
before. His basement is a spacegamer's heaven with more minis than can be
believed in one area.
As a result, I will go back to GenCon because of the people I met, not because
of the games and retailers.
Other Rules.
Star Blazers Fleet Battle System - It does keep the anime feel but in
the demo I was in there was this guy from Iowa who ruined the demo for me (the
less said the better). The turn structure is opposite FT (alternate movement,
simultaneous fire) and its a good idea to buy a truck load of
10-siders as every missile fired is rolled to-hit and you can have 100s
of them fired in one turn. I did not see the battle craft rules (fighters) in
use and Mark says this cuts down on the massed missile attacks as they are
needed for defense. Overall I am happy I bought it
and will get the Warship Recognition Guide when it shows up.
B5 Wars - Lots of buzz on this, full demos everyday but it was taking
them over an hour and a half to get through the rules and start them playing.
The resin prototypes of the Earth and Narn capital ships were larger than I
expected dwarfing the Mimbari War Cruiser. They sold about 65 boxes the first
day at $45 US a pop (I overheard this at their booth). I waited on this and
will give my local store some business and pick it up there once I have
digested everything else I got.
Babylon Project RPG Starship Rules - These are great. It is FT made to
fit the B5 universe. Ship diagrams are close to FT but have some
modifications. Movement is quick and works well. Zeke, (the
co-designer
with JT) was there and enthusiastic. A lot of the FT3 rules were there
plus some additions I liked (catastrophic damage - hit 2 thresholds on
1 turn and you could lose the whole ship, PDAFs fire at all fighters within
6"). In a demo I took a Narn Cruiser against a Hyperion and pummeled it. The
only down side is Chameleon Eclectic has rights for only the early portion of
B5 so just the basic ships are included (no White Stars) and it is not known
(Zeke said don't even ask the question) if they will ever do
Shadow rules. I pre-ordered the Earthforce Supplement and they will
ship it to me when ready sometime in the next month. The starship combat rules
are only a chunk of the full supplement but for B5 gamers I think it is
worth it.
Silent Death - This game was pretty hot. They had the big resins
battling at their booth but most of their games were held in a different room
than the GZG games and there always were at least a few SD games going at all
times. With their constant release of supplements and minis, they have
developed a good following, something FT can maybe watch and learn from.
Misc Rules - Thanks to Crazy Igor's buy-1-get-1-free sale on Sunday I
picked up some old out of print rules to add to my collection. I also hit
GameScience for the Star Fleet Battle Manual and Alien Space. Some
of these rules have given me ideas on additions to FT that I worked out
on the drive home, more on them later.
Miniatures
I had brought with me some Superior Models minis and some Pendraken minis that
all got good reviews. FYI I have pictures taken of the Pendraken minis and now
Mike Miserendino will get them scanned and then Matt Seidl will get them up
for you all to see.
Full Thrust Games They were all busy and full except for the first one where I
had to join in and then there were still only 4 players so each player had 2
fleets.
Lots of carnage though ;-) Most of the games had some experienced
players but as Allan said, their should be some easier intro games plus some
other games for the experienced players. I may have been recruited to run some
next year and hope to help out with a tournament of 16 players where they
choose 1 of many pre-designed fleets and battle 1 on 1 until only the
champion is decided. I'd also like to run a cross-background game
where a Star Wars Imperial fleet pulls a Star Trek Federation fleet out of
warp
and they do battle.
FT's Future I was in some good discussions on FT and its future throughout the
con and got some views from Jeff Gullion who also runs a retail game store. It
was agreed that GW is a miniatures company who creates rules to sell their
minis. They do a good job of making eye-candy minis that kids buy and
of keeping something new always coming out. FT minis are not selling well at
Jeff's store but the rules do ok. In his view, the casual players pass up
on FT because of a lack of pre-designed ships and additional
supplements. They are looking to get quickly into a game but do not want to
spend the time and effort designing a fleet. Many members of the list will
disagree with this but I would not clasify most of the list memebers as casual
gamers. When Jeff runs FT games at his store, they always fill up quickly and
the players have fun but no one else is running games there due to the lack of
balanced fleet designs as the powergamers ruin the
design-your-own
pick-up games and the other gamers do not want to spend the time
designing full fleets and scenarios. If they could come to the gaming table
and state "I'll take 2000 points from the NAC fleet, you take 2000 points from
the ESU fleet" then it would bring more gamers to FT. So basically the
Fleet Book is very high on his want list and it should also help sell the FT
minis when players have stats for each (though there were comments that each
mini should have a few different versions of FT stats to represent
upgrades and common modifications). I did hear good things about FT and saw a
few gamers with a lot of Silent Death stuff buying copies of FT at the GeoHex
booth. Unfortunately I did hear other comments on FT like
"I
never bring a ship smaller that a Battleship to a game because anything
smaller is not worth it."
These comments are not intended to bash JT and GZG. I think highly of him and
his games. I included them because I think they are valid views from the rest
of the gaming world, including the retailer's front line point of view and the
view of the casual gamer which is not represented by the postings to this
list. In the end they want more material to support the well received rules.
As soon as the Fleet Book and Alien supplements to DSII and SGII come out,
they will boost the sales of the rules and extend the life cycle of the rules
which by some accounts have already peaked and are on the decline.
> At 09:32 AM 8/19/97 -0600, you wrote:
> FT's Future
It was
> agreed that GW is a miniatures company who creates rules to sell their
> minis. They do a good job of making eye-candy minis that kids buy and
This ties in with what I've seen locally. If you can get people to try the
rules, they love it. However, they mostly don't want the trouble of having to
invent the ships on their own. That's one reason the Star Trek, B5, and Star
Wars backgrounds are so popular. You KNOW what weapons to use for each ship.
You KNOW about how powerful each ship should be. You don't have to work this
out for yourself.
There's one other thing: players like games with a lot of support. It makes no
sense, but there it is. If a game has a ton of supplements out for it, they're
likely to check it out. If it's only the main rules, they tend not to be as
interested. This is NOT just me talking out my exhaust pipe. I have a friend
who has written a set of RPG rules. He was told by distributors that for his
rules to be a success he had to get out a bunch of supplements. For whatever
reason, a game with supplements will sell better than a game without, all
things being equal and regardless of whether or not the supplements are
needed. I saw the same during college when I worked in a comic store.
> They are looking to get quickly into a game but do not want to spend
I'm not sure that all that many people would disagree. At the con, a bunch of
us were talking about this. We ALL said we'd buy a fleet book. In fact, if Jon
came up with a fleet book for each side in the universe, we said we'd buy EACH
book if for no other reason than to get ship ideas. One of the reasons I don't
play FT more than I do is that I don't have a big library of pregenerated,
playtested, balanced ships. If I want to play FT, I have to think about it
ahead of time. FT doesn't have any ability to just play a pick up game with
little pregame work.
> When Jeff runs FT games at his store, they always fill up quickly
I fully agree. One other thing Jeff mentioned: a new version of a game often
canabalizes the sales of an earlier version if the versions are relatively
different. Jeff saw this in his game store and I saw this at the comic store.
When Silent Death: The New Millenium came out, it tended to alienate the older
players. Now Jon has argued that a new version of a game doesn't destroy the
old version, and I agree with this. However, I tend to be an early adopter and
I would pick up the new version anyway. What happens in your game group if
half the guys want to move on to the new version and the other half like the
old version just fine? Well, experience indicates that your game group moves
on to a different game entirely. Jeff saw this with Silent Death (SD seems to
be recovering now, but it's taken several supplements to do it). I saw it with
RuneQuest back when Avalon Hill
released RQ3. If the follow-on product isn't an enhancement to the
existing rules but a rewrite, it tends to divide the players playing the game
and can lead to a decline in the playing of the game.
My fear is that the changes in FT3 will not be readily accepted. This will
result in cons running FT2 and FT3. At some point FT2 will no longer be for
sale so new players will only have FT3 available. The problem comes if the old
guard mostly refuse to move to FT3. At that point there is no one pushing the
new version. Add to this a lack of fleet books and the game could stop
selling. We'd still have our ships and our rules, but it would be harder and
harder to bring in new players. I don't know if this would happen but it's
what I fear.
Jeff and I had a discussion about this and we came to the conclusion that
there wasn't a lot wrong with FT. We'd like to see the point system fixed
(there's the A battery over price, the unbalanced Kra'vak weapons,
etc.).
We'd like to see a campaign system and a fleet book (if not a whack of fleet
books). I'd like to see some new systems and the real thrust movement rules
(as an option only). However, if these were all rolled into a combination
fleet book/second supplement I'd be happy. Jeff feels that DS2 needs a
revamp, with the command and morale system of SG2 grafted onto it, before a
revamp of FT is needed.
> These comments are not intended to bash JT and GZG. I think highly of
I couldn't agree more. As I said, I'd pick up FT3 without a second thought. So
would a lot of list members, though a number of list members have expressed
antipathy towards some of the suggested rules changes. I would like nothing
more than to have the GZG games the most popular SF miniatures games on the
planet.
> FT's Future
i think i would have to agree wholly
many comments cut
> FT's Future
It was
> agreed that GW is a miniatures company who creates rules to sell
> keeping something new always coming out. FT minis are not selling
> This ties in with what I've seen locally. If you can get people to try
I can second (or third) this train of thought. Full Thrust is very popular in
my club but most of the games we play are designed by me or are invovled with
the campaign(s) I am running. Very rarely will anyone pull out ships for a
pick up game.
> They are looking to get quickly into a game but do not want to spend
The only time gamers in the club design fleets is when I set up a specific
battle and assign to players as admirals. As a club we play a great variety of
games and many members would probably choose to play the easier game to run on
short notice.
> When Jeff runs FT games at his store, they always fill up quickly
Again the ease of play issue. At least some members of the club besides myself
would buy a fleet book and we would have more to work with for pickup games.
> My fear is that the changes in FT3 will not be readily accepted. This
> Jeff and I had a discussion about this and we came to the conclusion
I'll agree with Allan's comments here almost word for word. I'm afraid to see
how much FT3 will change the basics of FT2. I really like the game as is and
with a few changes would be happy. I hope that many of the more radical
changes will be optional or add ons. I'd like to see the Fleet book and
campaign book before FT3.
> As I said, I'd pick up FT3 without a second thought.
Again I agree, although I worried about the impact of FT3 on the game it is on
my buy at once list. I enjoy playing and demoing GZG systems and I hope they
continue to grow more popular.
> This ties in with what I've seen locally. If you can get people to try
I'd have to agree with you on this point. There has been at least two
occasions that I've had to turn down playing FT with new people solely because
I; (A) didn't have a fleet built up, (B) wasn't sure what "house
rules" they'd be using to build said fleet.
> There's one other thing: players like games with a lot of support. It
For me, yes and no. Back in the Dark Ages, I liked playing AD&D because it had
good set of rules, lots of modules, etc. I got out of it because (well, other
than I grew up:)) they changed the rules format, and added a whole bunch of
"stuff" that I didn't want; the players' class collections (you know, those
boxes of "stuff" players needed to buy in order to make a particular class of
character), bunches of spell book additions, character sheets (which I rarely
used), etc. Got me wanting to play basic D&D again, (and I HATE basic D&D).
> > They are looking to get quickly into a game but do not want to spend
I'm on the list, and I don't disagree. I get to play usually twice a month,
and I don't have time in the interum to build up fleets and make scenerios,
etc. Our twice monthly playtimes are eaten away by doing this instead.
> ....FT doesn't have any ability to just play a pick up game with little
> pregame work....
I agree.
> My fear is that the changes in FT3 will not be readily accepted....
This may sound like sucking up to JT, but I have full confidence in his
abilities to make FT3 compatible with FT and MT. Any changes in FT3 will most
likely be under the heading "Optional Rules" or some such. The only thing Cons
will need to state in FT games are what rules will and will not be in effect.
Either that or allow the players set the ground rules before
starting.
> We'd like to see the point system fixed (there's the A battery over
This brings up one snag in new rules; ship costing changes. I guess players
will have to agree beforehand which prices to use. I agree with the A
batteries being a tad low, but as to Kra'Vak; hey, who said the universe was
fair?
Glad I picked up on this thread; I've been tossing all "*.con) threads
altogether. Since we are on the topic of GZG improving FT, if there was one
thing I'd like GZG to come up with, it would be a scenerio book or some type.
I'm not much of a scenerio builder; don't know what should balance what and
all. I would like to see this book include scenerios that can tie in DSII and
SGII; Maybe have chapter one be ship invasion, chapter two be beachhead
attempting, and chapter three, actual land warfare. Something along the
lines of that.
For what its worth, our FT leader is trying to build a universe set around the
framework of 19c. Europe. Lots of angst there, I guess. Basically, take the
19c. skirmishes, and update them for space opera.
> At 12:34 PM 8/21/97 -0700, you wrote:
> This may sound like sucking up to JT, but I have full confidence in his
> abilities to make FT3 compatible with FT and MT. Any changes in FT3
> From the FT3 playtest rules as they stand this isn't the case. I don't
> Glad I picked up on this thread; I've been tossing all "*.con) threads
I like this idea. A fleet book (or several fleet books), a campaign and
scenario book, and maybe an alien book. I'd like to see the SG2 alien stuff
with FT stuff as well. Some people might object to buying one book for two
games, but this is how a number of other companies do it and it usually works
well. You're essentially using one game to market another.
> For what its worth, our FT leader is trying to build a universe set
Basically, take
> the 19c. skirmishes, and update them for space opera.
Geez, that sounds familiar! I've done something fairly similar. Last year I
ran an "Age of Iridium" PBEM game based loosely on the Russo-Japanese
war.
> pshoffner@earthlink.net wrote:
I'm not much of a scenerio builder; don't know what should balance what and
all. I would like to see this book include scenerios that can tie in DSII and
SGII; Maybe have chapter one be ship invasion, chapter two be beachhead
attempting, and chapter three, actual land warfare. Something along the
lines of that.