> stiltman@teleport.com wrote:
....Reflex field.
> > One problem: you don't get to know whether the fields are up until
So strike that. I'll go for the Novas. I wonder if/how a Reflex Field
needs to change to balance in FT 2.5.Your balance notes make some sense, but I
wonder how they'd playtest with FB level ships.
> > > Rock, paper, scissors. You think I'd throw the same fleet at a
Even _more_ rock/paper/scissors. Do you play with any kind of sensor
rules that can give this info before anyone fires?
> If you see a really large
If it were class 5, I wouldn't worry about it. If it were class 6, I'd have
to see If I could take it - that might almost be a fair fight.
I doubt I'd agree to play many games like this, though. You wouldn't enjoy my
conceding whenever I thought one of us (either one) had brought a rock to
fight paper. I wouldn't have too much fun on either rock or paper side (well,
at least after the first three times I wrapped your rock), so would opt for
another game.
> > This is cinematic movement, remember. You're not going to fire the
Who needs speed? I can stand still from, what, 75" away and blast at will.
2-12 points a shotx2 Novas with all the time in the world. Can't say
it'd be the most fun game, but it'd work.
> > > Aside from a fixed edge being an entirely artificial limitation in
Hm. A "soft" edge is almost worse than a "hard" edge, since it "how far is too
far" becomes a matter of opinion rather than fact.
> > >3) Behemoths/fleets with
Snipers
> that can
It is with thrust 1.
> > > > We simply don't have people deliberately try to abuse the
Too easily countered. The point I wanted to make is that your default setup
favors this kind of design over high maneuver ships, when a floating table
does not have that bias.
> > See other post. I've used Oerjan Velocities in my games before, to
Then you're opponents don't seem to be learning from you (E.g. the KV should
know before starting not to suicide charge a Plansma barage). That can't be
too fun, or challenging.
> > > Semantics, semantics. I call it taking advantage of the space.
A thrust 1 ship can't run down anything except a starbase. Even a thrust 2
eggshell carrier that starts out of range can stay out of range as long as it
wants.
> > > 'Course as Oerjan said, the initial excercise (killing the
Of course, I made that assumption. I wasn't playing tweak/countertweak,
and I wasn't planning on rehashing that particular take, since it wasn't my
original idea.
> > stiltman@teleport.com wrote:
> > > One problem: you don't get to know whether the fields are up
> So strike that. I'll go for the Novas. I wonder if/how a Reflex Field
Hard to say. Cloaking devices can do one of two things, in my experience. Used
properly, they can be used to choose the terms of battle to allow the
fleet deploying them (which is probably going to be outgunned head-on)
to maneuver to their advantage and force the enemy to adjust to them rather
than letting their enemy dictate how they should adjust. If you're in a bad
position, you can just recloak and maneuver some more. It makes for a
somewhat tense game of submarine-and-destroyer, and the person who
doesn't have the cloaking devices can be fairly easily unnerved by not knowing
what the cloakers are going to do if they're not used to it.
Used in a more gambling fashion, they can turn the entire game into a guessing
contest. If someone tries to predict too much about what you're
going to do about ten turns down the road and set up an oh-so-perfect
ambush, they can put you in a box if you do what they expect and you can put
them in a box if you don't.
I tend to do the former, and keep the amount of things I have to guess about
to a minimum. My brother-in-law usually tries to outguess me a little
more than he should (which is halfway consistent with the second para above).
My
wife doesn't have very good Mk. I's (as I believe the phrase goes around here
:) and hates keeping track of where cloaked ships are going to be going so she
doesn't tend to use them.
> > > > Rock, paper, scissors. You think I'd throw the same fleet at a
> > > Major assumption problem here: you don't know if I'm going to fly
> Even _more_ rock/paper/scissors. Do you play with any kind of sensor
Yes, we allow people to demand a vague outline of what they're up against once
they've got some form of scout halfway close to the enemy. We probably
wouldn't give this info out from maximum Class 6 beam range, but if you're not
far outside of more conventional beam range or if you've got fighters
near the opposition we give it out. (Sensor rules in FT/MT indicate
36-54"
range, so we tend to loosely follow them.) You can know that one of your
enemies has a reflex field if you get within sensor range, but you can't know
whether it's up or not until it's fired upon.
As for whether that constitutes p/r/s... well, if you're using a tactic
that has an irredeemable weakness, you probably shouldn't bring it to the
table. This is why we don't tend to fly this sort of thing too often... it
hopes for too much cooperation out of the other side.
> > If you see a really large
> If it were class 5, I wouldn't worry about it. If it were class 6, I'd
> I doubt I'd agree to play many games like this, though. You wouldn't
*shrugs* We just don't over-design things so that they can't deal with
a broad variety of situations.
> > > This is cinematic movement, remember. You're not going to fire
> Who needs speed? I can stand still from, what, 75" away and blast at
Side note, perhaps a bit rules-lawyerly: the FT book states that a ship
firing a nova cannon may not fire _any_ other weapons that round. We
interpret this to include other nova cannons, i.e. you can only fire one of
them per turn. That makes them pretty inefficient to use on large ships that
have to shut down a great deal of other effective weapons to fire them. That,
and the fact that you can't make any course changes while you're firing it
(i.e.
anyone with even thrust 2 and decent velocity probably can avoid just one,
though perhaps not more than 1, if it's three turns out) balances out nova
cannons quite well.
And, FWIW, maximum nova cannon range is only 60" (6" start and 54" travel over
three turns).
> > > > Aside from a fixed edge being an entirely artificial limitation
> > > These two things simply don't happen with us. We typically play
> Hm. A "soft" edge is almost worse than a "hard" edge, since it "how
Perhaps. But like I said, we just don't get into those sorts of arguments
because no one abuses the edge with the understanding that this sort of
details exploitation would probably earn your ships an ejection from the game
on simple principle alone.:)
> > > >3) Behemoths/fleets with
Snipers
> > that can
> > > We don't have much trouble with either of these because closing on
> It is with thrust 1.
Even with thrust 1, pinning someone against the edge of the board with Class 3
beams isn't too hard. If they fly _too_ much faster than that, they're
likely deficient in some area or other that can be exploited. You can't have
speed,
firepower, _and_ resilience all on the same ship. :)
> > > > > We simply don't have people deliberately try to abuse the
> > > See other post. I've used Oerjan Velocities in my games before,
> Then you're opponents don't seem to be learning from you (E.g. the KV
Well, my wife simply took a guess that she wasn't going to be able to outguess
my plasma shots well enough that I wouldn't eventually wear her down without
her being able to get as many shots in as she did. As it was, she brought the
Super Orb down past double threshold before I was even able to do significant
damage to her.
> > > > Semantics, semantics. I call it taking advantage of the space.
> > > Doesn't usually happen. The fighters usually decide the game well
> A thrust 1 ship can't run down anything except a starbase. Even a
_If_ it's on a floating field rather than some place where a planetary
system is in contest. Though even on a fixed one, you can FTL out if you just
want to preserve the ship. Yes, our rules generally force you to bug out if
you
can't fight something relatively head-on at some point in the game. We
like it that way.
[Komarov vs. "dreadplanet" with assumption that no Class 4 beams will
get tweaked onto the latter]
> Of course, I made that assumption. I wasn't playing
No prob. However, I think I've probably made my point and beaten it to death:
the dreadplanet can potentially make a mess, and individual ways of stopping
it in my particular field are only going to force it to make minor tweaks,
whereas you have to really gimmick yourself up to particularly scare it.
Stilt:
> *shrugs* We just don't over-design things so that they can't
I disagree that a Beam-6 fleet is more overdesigned than a 41-45 fighter
group dreadplanet. Each _is_ overdesigned, and each needs to be tweaked
to deal with different types of threats.
> Side note, perhaps a bit rules-lawyerly: the FT book states
I'd agree, though a) I'm not sure I'd interpret that you couldn't fire a
double barreled Nova, and b) I'd been referring to two Nova ships, rather than
two on one ship. As for Nova range, unless I misunderstood,
6+18+24+24
= 72 + 3 blast radius = 75"
> Hm. A "soft" edge is almost worse than a "hard" edge, since
> Perhaps. But like I said, we just don't get into those
Which _could_ be interpreted that people are so afraid of the soft edge
(for fear of being accused of being exploitive) that no one tries to maneuver
anywhere near it, effectively hamstringing fast, wide maneuvering tactics.
> You can't have speed, firepower, _and_ resilience all on the same
True, but a wallowing ship, overgunned that it might be, has a seriously
exploitable weakness.
> No prob. However, I think I've probably made my point...
My points remain two: 1) A tweakable Beam 5 or 6 fleet is no more gimmicked
than a tweakable dreadplanet. 2) Both a Beam 5-6 fleet _and_ a
fighter-overkill dreadplanet _are_ gimmicks.
> At 01:08 PM 6/10/00 -0400, you wrote:
It may be just me, but I every time that I read the word "dreadplanet", I
cannot help but imagine Andre the Giant wrapped in a holoaust cloak, saying "I
am the Dwead pwanet Woberts!"
> At 01:08 PM 6/10/00 -0400, you wrote:
> It may be just me, but I every time that I read the word
I _love_ it! Awesome material for a running joke! ;)
[quoted original message omitted]