> Collin wrote:
Someone work out how far an elite trooper could run (with and without leader
transferred actions) for the realism freaks on the list;) [Although how your
sergeant can make you run twice as far by shouting at you I don't know
;]
** Never been pursued by an uppity Warrant obviously.... they have *ways* of
motivating....
> Scott Wrote:
On a totally seperate front, my mind being jogged by this discussion. What
about masking fire? In FMA, on the individual level, a model should definately
BLOCK line of fire. I don't remember if think this is adressed in the FMA
rules. (I'm
away from my rules right now so can't cross-reference).
** It does say figure scale is ground scale and if you can hide behind
terrain, you are hidden. This I assume also applies to fellow figure
(ambulatory sentient (or mostly so) terrain elements).
======================================================
To address some of the comments Scott and Los collectively made for both FMA
and SG2.
On an individual basis: Combat movement is fraught with danger and
uncertainty. You might twist a leg, trip, fail to get moving as fast as you
wanted, have to duck some incoming fire, etc. I've seen people dither about in
the
open for godsake! It is non-deterministic. But there are still
multiple styles of combat movement - one is the all out sprint, the
other is the bounding advance. (The other is the combat crawl). These apply on
an individual level (FMA). As a squad, you don't need to
reflect this the same way (SG2). There are also march/walk, jog, etc.
as movement types for an individual. For an individual, combat movement is the
product of himself and his immediate environment.
As a squad: Combat movement is fraught with danger and uncertainty. Any squad
member might twist a leg, trip, fail to get moving as fast as the Sgt. wanted,
have to duck some incoming fire, etc. This can lead to the whole squad
fragmenting or staying together and not making as much progress as was
desireable. For a squad, combat movement is the
product of each individual sub-movement and the environment. The fact
there are a number of individual sub-movements each of which is
variable in effect mean that the squad itself moves in a variable manner.
So, how do we put this together in a way that provides coherent rules for both
systems but they might have the same feel or integrate well?
SG2 exists. It has two movement types - a fixed movement, and a
variable combat movement. My assumption is that the combat movement relfects a
bounding style of movement. The fixed movement (I'll differ with Scott here)
seemed to me to be march movement. And yes, you get two actions, so you can
execute two moves. So a patrol move could be a 6" set move plus a fire action,
whereas a light jog could be a 12" move with no fire. The one thing the game
does not reflect directly is
the difference between engaging a stationary target and a moving one -
but the problem is of course that this effect is greater at short ranges than
at long ranges (due to the degrees of arc your firearm must cover while
tracking moving targets).
FMA is in the process of being formed. What makes sense here?
Well, a fixed move should exist. We'll call your base move a walk or
march. Then their should exist the variable combat moves - but there
really should be more than a single kind. There is a distinct difference (in
terms of max distance coverable) between a dash from A to B and a bounding
advance, or a combat crawl. These distinctions can (if you are happy with
that) be subsumed in SG2 as being part of the combat move. But in FMA, they
really should be represented.
I think I might recommend something like this:
MOVE ACTIONS
2-move actions:
ASSAULT/RUSH (Charge to enter close assault) (2dX for movement in each
move action) (2d6" for std troops)
FLEE/ROUT (Race madly away) (2d(X+1 shift) for movement in each move
action) - you can run faster scared than angry! (2d8" for std troops)
1-move actions:
MARCH/WALK (Normal Movement, non combat) (X+1 shift") (d8" for normal
troops)
PATROL/BOUNDING (Normal Combat Move) (1dX per move) (1d6" for normal
troops)
CRAWL (Combat Crawl) (d(X - 1 shift) per move) (d4" for normal troops)
DASH (Run from A 2 B full tilt) (2dX per move) (2d6" for normal troops)
If executing any manouvre type that involves rolling more than one dice (FLEE,
DASH, or ASSAULT), figure must make a roll against motivation with his quality
die (to represent physical training). If he fails, he is gains a suppression
(winding). This means if in the open, he follows the rules for suppression in
the open.
As a benefit to those executing any combat movement (Bounding, Dash,
Assault, Rout, Crawl - anything but a normal march or walk basically),
enemy fires at 1 RB further. (or alternately, you could argue this is the
normal state of affairs, and marching is the "odd man out" and that fire at a
unit walking or marching should be at 1 RB closer).
Just another 0.02. The granularity of FMA is such that more movement
options must be visible to the end user - the timescale is shorter,
the focus is on one man, and the distances are shorter. This contributes to
actually bring focus to the different types of moves (as opposed to SG2 where
the turns are longer, the scale of movement bigger, and the variables more due
to more people involved so a more approximate style with two move types is
probably sufficient).
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> ** It does say figure scale is ground scale and if you can hide behind
By the way, one thing I'd like to see more of from the Foundries of
GZG/Eureka/Geohex are prone figures. There are already standing and
kneeling figures. If we have some more prone poses (I know there are some),
then given the small number of guys in a FMA scenario, you could have a
depiction of each posture for each figure. (standing, prone, kneeling).
> [quoted text omitted]
<snip good summaries>
> FMA is in the process of being formed. What makes sense here?
I quick question, doesn't one of your actions in the assault to CC have to be
CC? (The flee is cool)
> 1-move actions:
Would there be a stipulation that the second action cannot be a firing action?
> PATROL/BOUNDING (Normal Combat Move) (1dX per move) (1d6" for normal
If not, then why would anyone ever do this one? (Unless you get a free
In-position or a modifier to your in position attempt)
> CRAWL (Combat Crawl) (d(X - 1 shift) per move) (d4" for normal troops)
Auto in-position or some other defensive or firing advantage?
> DASH (Run from A 2 B full tilt) (2dX per move) (2d6" for normal
But you can't fire in your second action.?
> If executing any manouvre type that involves rolling more than one
Sounds good. Also how about when a unit routs it automatically must use Flee
for movement if it's going to move at all.
> As a benefit to those executing any combat movement (Bounding, Dash,
Ahh Ok that's good. Nix everything I asked about various defensive benefits of
your various move types, though my question of which should support subsequent
fire actions still stands...
You have made many good points. I'm heading up to Cape Cod this weekend for
several days and will be bringing all my stuff with me. I got my
10-year old cousin into warhammer 40k a couple of years ago( hey it's
the easiest way to get a kid into wargaming so back off!), so with these FMA
rules to test out, it's time to subvert him into some real gaming.
Cheers...
A leader should make it easier to make troops move, direct fire, and improve
morale, but to make troops move faster or further?
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> In a message dated 8/5/99 3:07:07 PM EST, dluff@erols.com writes:
<< A leader should make it easier to make troops move, direct fire, and
improve morale, but to make troops move faster or further?
> [quoted text omitted]
A leader doesn't make the soldiers shoot better, move better or pick targets
better but he does coordinate all these things by directing fire, enforcing
fire discipline and causing the unit to move together for a purpose they ALL
understand. Yes, i think that effectively that moves your further and faster.
Issued forth in response to my ramblings, the sage words of the mighty Los:
From: Los <los@cris.com>
> I think I might recommend something like this:
I quick question, doesn't one of your actions in the assault to CC have to be
CC? (The flee is cool)
** I assume that is what happens at the end of the double move.
Assault/Rush was meant to cover the move - wait to be killed if you
didn't make it - move again - close assault series of actions.
> If executing any manouvre type that involves rolling more than one
Sounds good. Also how about when a unit routs it automatically must use Flee
for movement if it's going to move at all.
** <I sort of assumed that>
> As a benefit to those executing any combat movement (Bounding, Dash,
Ahh Ok that's good. Nix everything I asked about various defensive benefits of
your various move types, though my question of which should support subsequent
fire actions still stands...
** Well, I have an additional thought: If you crawl, you'd get fired on as if
you were 2 RB further out. (You see, hitting a prone target
is a b*tch - my limited experience with firearms, paintball, and MILES
tells me that...).
** As to firing: Anything that you didn't end up winded after (by picking up a
suppression) you should be able to fire after. A short dash won't necessarily
make you incapable of shooting. (If you are
winded, you might have troubles - you should fire with penalties to
your shooting even if single suppressed or winded but I don't recall
if this is reflected - I think you get one less action, but really the
action you take should be penalized with one negative die shift on
your quality too - it isn't just you do less, you do it less well
also). So if you don't end up wounded... then you can do whatever you like.
You could march 1 then shoot (though if you were engaged in march mode you'd
have your ass kicked).
** Two choices exist for someone who dashes twice - two separate
checks for winding or 1 nasty one rolled at the end versus double your
motivation. One has the simplicity of a full turn for one check. The other
gives the effect of dash, then wind, then lag the rest of the way or eat dirt
because you are shagged out. If you use the two checks method and you fail
your winding check and are suppressed in the open (following Jon's new rule),
you may have to dash again anyway, but this time your die type is shifted down
one for movement and your test
to become winded (again - a double suppression) is at +1 (for your
already existent suppression or winding). This is more complex. It may be
simpler just to make the nasty check (against double motivation) once at the
end of the double dash, and if the failure is bad (less than half the number
required), then you pick up two suppressions. If you just miss it, but not by
less than half, you get one suppression.
You have made many good points. I'm heading up to Cape Cod this weekend for
several days and will be bringing all my stuff with me. I got my
10-year old cousin into warhammer 40k a couple of years ago( hey it's
the easiest way to get a kid into wargaming so back off!), so with these FMA
rules to test out, it's time to subvert him into some real gaming.
** A new buddy has just moved to Ottawa bringing a table. FMA skirmish with
some new rules for movement (like these!), multiple suppressions, and some
form of grenades and area suppression will soon be tried!
Later List! Tom.
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> ** Well, I have an additional thought: If you crawl, you'd get fired
Even better.
> *** Two choices exist for someone who dashes twice - two separate
I like one check too, because in the flow of the game that's what you would be
doing, one haul ass move then you takes your chances at the end.