[FT] Who said Nova cannon's were unbalanced?

Beth don't you know ANYTHING? It's unbalanced because we were told it was in
More Thrust! (Or was it FB?)

Los <grin>

> Beth Fulton wrote:

> G'day guys,
away
> straight in front in a nice big line and then rolled a lot of 1s and

G'day guys,

I'm in the mood for a good argu... err discussion <g> and so I've decided to
ask a question that's been bugging me for ages. Why do you guys think the wave
gun and nova cannon are unbalanced (as evidenced by the reactions to the
initial UNSC SDN design)? Under the FB designs they're no super weapon,
they're regularly used down here and I've only seen them do devastating damage
once and that was because the target got cocky (my son had the wave gun ship
fully charged, but his opponent was so sure he'd take it out through damage
causing threshold checks he ended his fleet 2 " away straight in front in a
nice big line and then rolled a lot of 1s and 2s much to his horror). Given
the fact you can't fire any other weapon system
that turn either then you may as well use large beams/p-torps (or if
using EFSB stuff as well, heavy beams) as you'll more often than not do more
damage that way. The rules for theses two "big" guns were written pre-FB
when ships were a lot smaller, now we regularly see ships hit the board with
masses >100. I'd even go so far to suggest that to make them useful (and to
give them back some of their reputation) under FB I'd double their radii of
effect or give them twice the dice, I'd also drop the requirement that says
Nova Cannons can only be carried by capitals (though that's less to do with
balance and more to do with the fact I don't see it as an important
distinction anymore).

Any way there's a few cents worth to rattle a few cages... been decidely too
quiet around here for my liking anyway;)

Have fun

Beth

> Beth Fulton wrote:

Well, if it's a good bash... discussion you want...

I feel the nova/wave will be somewhat more useful against the smaller
classes of ships due to the reduced thrust of the 'escort' types.

The disadvantage of the FB to the nova/wave will be the general increase
in the size of the ships of all classes.   (A hit will produce a smaller
percentage of damage per hit.)

It is a great SML and fighter broom in either book.

Take that.

:-)
Bye for now,

> It is a great SML and fighter broom in either book.

How do you use it to kill SML's? You place the missiles, you move your ships,
you do the missile attacks, and only then do you get to shoot your wave gun.
Fighter killer, yes, I agree.

G'day John,

> I feel the nova/wave will be somewhat more useful against the smaller

Reduced thrust? Our escorts are usually the faster ones....

> It is a great SML and fighter broom in either book.

Mmmm, we may be doing something wrong, but we don't fire the nova
cannon/wave gun until the ships fire phase so by then all SMs have gone
in or missed and so far fighters seem to use their movement to stay out of
range if in arc, then stay out of arc if in range and then boom they're on top
of you!

> Take that.

I'm not fleet of foot enough to dodge, so I opted to go straight for the
counter attack;)

Cheers

Beth

G'day Los,

> Beth don't you know ANYTHING? It's unbalanced because we were told it

Ok I'm dully chastened;)

Beth

> I'm in the mood for a good argu... err discussion <g> and so I've

I think the problem that most have with the Wave and Nova weapons is that they
potentially allow an inferior tacticial to get 1 lucky shot that destroys an
enormous point value of ships. Thus it's unbalanced from a points perspective.

Likewise, it's possible to get "unlucky" and have the reverse happen.

G'day Schoon,

> I think the problem that most have with the Wave and Nova weapons is

But is it that possible anymore (well in vector at least, can't say for
cinematic sorry)? Unless the target does something pretty stupid in the first
place I wouldn't have said it was that possible anymore, you're far more
likely to get dumped on yourself not being able to fire anything else. When
you regularly see BBs etc let llose with 21 dice (e.g. <12" NSL BB) then the
wave guns etc just don't seem that extreme anymore.

> Likewise, it's possible to get "unlucky" and have the reverse happen.

Considering your talking to me, that's probably more likely the case;)

Thanks

Beth

> But is it that possible anymore (well in vector at least, can't say for

Sure. Consider the NSL Thrust 2 SDN. Using vector or cinematic, it's not going
to be too hard to figure out where this bad boy is going to end up. Now take a
single cruiser armed with a Nova Cannon. Line it up and fire away, potentially
blowing up a 670 point ship for a fraction of the cost.

Of course this example is slightly silly, but I'm only using it to illustrate
the point.

> Likewise, it's possible to get "unlucky" and have the reverse happen.

Let's not forget our infamous Pulse Torp king as well ;-)

> Beth wrote:

> The rules for theses two "big" guns were written pre-FB

Well, a Mass 100 FB ship is roughly equivalent to a Mass 50-60 FT2 ship
- which were quite common, and quite vulnerable to WGs and NCs, in FT2
AFAIK :-/

> I'd even go so far to suggest that to make them useful

IOW making it almost impossible to miss with them, particularly in
Vector movement :-( OK, single ships can dodge, but not a force relying
on ADFCs or similar.

> I'd also drop the requirement

Obviously, since FB doesn't have any solid definition for "capital"
ships :-/

Regards,

> Laserlight wrote:

G'day Oerjan,

> Well, a Mass 100 FB ship is roughly equivalent to a Mass 50-60 FT2 ship

I'll take your word for that (having only played FB), however I don't think
those ships are that vulnerable anymore. Admittedly it may have something to
do with the fact we play vector, core rules and strike the colours so many
weapons can do pretty devastating damage, so in comparison wave guns and such
aren't that impressive anymore. And I disagree with Nik that its just because
I roll ones (I do realise I have that problem and try to compensate for that
bias), but Michael (the corporation player) has been using them for months and
apparently found them so ineffectual he switched
to p-torps instead.

> IOW making it almost impossible to miss with them, particularly in

I disagree, at present there diameter is 2"/3"/4" and the ADFC has 6"
width so unless the guy lines up right in front of you you'd be lucky to get
more than a couple of ships (it fires down your front line so if your even a
little bit out your stuffed usually). Besides as stated on the fighter thread
that would be the downside of the ADFC's design choice.

> Obviously, since FB doesn't have any solid definition for "capital"

Its not hard to say ship of size >90 is equivalent to a capital ship Oerjan.

OK to rehash/clarify the issue I have two problems with the wave gun as
it
stands - relative strength and field of fire. So how's this for a
suggestion, keep the range of 36" (though Derek would probably up it to 48")
double the diameter, but instead of saying every ship touched by the template
say ever ship with their centre point within the area is hit (you use
centrepoint for every other weapon it only makes sense given the accepted
scale vs size of ships for it to apply here too). Comments?
Flames? Shrugs of disinterest and a general "oh shut-up Beth"? ;)

Cheers

Beth

[...]
> accepted scale vs size of ships for it to apply here too). Comments?

How 'bout a general "please keep posting, beth!"?

Mk

At 9:41 AM -0500 11/5/99, Do not pass when solid yellow line is on
> your side of the road wrote:

Right!