[FT] Wave Gun (was: OU & IC & FB3)

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> From: "bkb@beol.net" <bkb@beol.net>

Hey! I just thought, why develop a special beam weapon for the "Shadows" for
B5 when I should probably use this. The Shadows are over the top so

this fits in. Where are my rules???

Wave Gun
--------
Only forward arc (90 deg. FT2, 60 deg. FB) No other weapons fire Vehicle is
unshielded in forward arc Range 36" (progressive area, 2",3",4" for each 12
inches) Damage (regressive 4D6,3D6,2D6 for each 12 inches) No Normal Defense
(yes, I used to play Champions a lot...) Needs to charge, requires 6 points,
roll 1D6 for each turn charging and add to total. Mass: 10 Cost:30

FB style Shadow Slice and Dice Beam

You have the arc WAY too wide for the current wave gun. It is 2mu wide for the
first 12mu, 3mu for the 2nd, and 4mu wide for the 3rd. So the wave is only 6
or 7 degrees wide (much smaller than a clock face, let alone a whole arc) if
it were a true arc. Its actual expansion is about 3 degrees if you measure
from the outside edge of the starting point to the outside edge of the end
point.

If Wave Guns are updated (and hopefully classed), I would like to see it be a
true cone shape (measure from firing ship to max
distance +/- Xmu from centerline).

Classed Wave Gun [untested] Range: 12mu range bands (RB) # RB: 1xClass
Terminal Cone Width: 2xClass in mu (about 13 degrees) Damage: Class number of
d6 actual to anything caught in the damage cone, reduce 1d6 per RB Arc: This
is a spinal mount weapon. It fires only in a straight line ahead of the ship.
Mass: 2^(Class) Cost: Mass * 3 Recharge: Must charge to 2xClass to fire. May
fire as lower class if partially charged. Roll 1d6 per turn to charge; result
is amount of charge added.
Collateral Damage:   If damaged by threshold check or destroyed
by a needle weapon, it does damage equal to the charge it held when hit.
Restrictions:        When fired, screens/shields/shrouds in the
front arc are negated until the end of the turn. No other restrictions.

Class Mass Cost #RB Term Width RB1 Damage Needed Charge
  1	2    9	 1	2mu	 1d6		 2
  2	4   12	 2	4mu	 2d6		 4
  3	8   24	 3	6mu	 3d6		 6
  4    16   48	 4	8mu	 4d6		 8
  5    32   96	 5     10mu	 5d6		10

-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
-----

> -----Original Message-----

> FB style Shadow Slice and Dice Beam

[snippage]

The additional arcs makes this even more "unbalanced" than the original. A
more accurate costing might be something like MASS 30, POINT COST 90.

> On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Peter Mancini wrote:

[...]
> Hey! I just thought, why develop a special beam weapon for the

I don't necessarily see the wave gun as being equivalent to the Shadow
Slice(tm). But that is open to various people's interpretation. Although, I
would have to disagree with the proposed 'progressive area' bit for the Shadow
Slicer. The Shadows generally target one ship (or group of
fighters) at a time, slice it open (or go 'pop-pop-pop' for fighters),
then move on to the next target or threat (not necessarily in that order).
Sizes and dimensions of ships at the scale of FT are too small for the
suggested 'progressive area' to simulate a cutting swath. The amount of
*damage* done to a given target by said weapon, however, would do that quite
nicely.

Mk

> From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil>

How is that any different than what I wrote?
> Range 36" (progressive area, 2",3",4" for each 12 inches)
Other than the fact that " should be mu as per Fleet Book 2.

> Recharge: Must charge to 2xClass to fire. May fire

This is a neat idea. I think I've seen various other attempts at something
like this for the Hvy Beams's.  I also like the collateral damage rule -

makes one anxious to fire if the ship is taking damage.

> Class Mass Cost #RB Term Width RB1 Damage Needed Charge

The above should leave a mark... 'frickin' Death Star main gun...

Just trying to model the show which has them able to engage anything in the
forward 90.

> From: "Mark 'Indy' Kochte" <kochte@stsci.edu>

I need to rewatch season 3 but in my minds eye I recall them getting more than
one ship at a time with the same beam. However I could be either mistaken or
perhaps that religious tart with all of her hyperbole concerning
the Shadows has overcome my otherwise rational nature.  ;-)

I misread what you intended. I thought that you meant the area of coverage
would be the entire front arc (60 degrees).

Now I see that you meant to have the regular cone, but have the long axis of
the cone to be anywhere in the front arc.

> Peter Mancini wrote:

*chuckle*

In season 2's "The Long, Twilight Struggle" there MAY be a scene in which
two Narn cruisers are hit by one beam sweep - but not all ships in the
area,
which is what would/should happen if you use the Wavegun idea for the
Shadow weapon. So from that I can see an arguement for a sweeping beam
covering an area. But it was a one-time thing for the Shadows (okay, and
a one-time thing for Epislon 3's Great Machine in season 1), and I think
it was more for dramatic effect and to illsutrate how *much* more advanced
some tech is compared to the level of most of the races around at that time.
Bearing this in mind, I would be hesitant to introduce an area effect for
Shadow weaponry (just make the damage hideously huge :-). I'd probably
use instead 2 beam shots to simulate one beam sweep.

('illsutrate' should be 'illustrate' - yes, I can speak today! :-/ ).

Right! I think it would be very unbalancing on second thoght and gaging

from the opinion of more seasoned FTers. MK makes a good argument for not
including area effect for Shadow Beams. In retrospect it makes sense my

imagination that they are hideous enough to swipe through many ships -
just look at any WWII diary written by any regular G.I. Joe and all German
tanks they encounter are Tigers. Battle seems to become bigger in the eye of
memory.

--Peter

> From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil>

> Indy wrote:

I think I remember somewhere in a EFSB conversion for Shadows (or maybe it was
B5 Wars)that they used the Heavy Beam weapon mechanic but with a massive
charge, and you could fire that one beam at multiple targets, but it cost you
1 die of damage to skip from the 1st to 2nd target, 2 dice from the 2nd to
3rd, etc. Those dice are then lost as they represent the beams continuous fire
between the targets. All targets must be in the same arc.

***
I think I remember somewhere in a EFSB conversion for Shadows (or maybe it was
B5 Wars)that they used the Heavy Beam weapon mechanic but with a massive
charge, and you could fire that one beam at multiple targets, but it cost you
1 die of damage to skip from the 1st to 2nd target, 2 dice from the 2nd to
3rd, etc. Those dice are then lost as they represent the beams continuous fire
between the targets. All targets must be in the same arc.
***

THAT'S more like the Shadow beam I'd envision!

I'd probably try a relatively small damage, but rolls on threshold, including
core, as the beam would cut ships; they gave relatively localized damage, but
right through.

I'm not saying it'd be easy to balance, but these boys are BAD.

The_Beast

-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon

One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad

> devans@uneb.edu wrote:

Oh, no, these guys are *way* unbalanced! In the B5 universe their main
Achilles Heel were telepaths employed to 'jam' them. Since we don't *have*
this sort of 'system' in FT yet (no need for it overall;
this is more a genre-specific thing), one path one could follow to
develop defenses against Shadow ships is to have a 'system' called
'telepath' (as the Psi symbol - what else? :-) which could then act
like a jammer of sorts against Shadow operations. Each teep could target one
system (FTL, main drives, weaponry; there may be some
systems that are not targettable - FTL, FireCon) in order to "slow
them down" (Sheridan, "Shadow Dancing"). The idea I'm following along here
would require a bit more die rolling (horrors! horrors!!) as the teep(s) would
have to make a die roll in order to make a successful jam
roll (call it range 24 mu, on a 1-3 unsuccessful, 4-5 successful jam
of one system, and on a 6 successfully jam 2 systems (um, no reroll ;-).

To illustrate combating this by the Shadows, you could have the teep and the
targetted Shadow vessel could 'roll off' against each other. If the Shadow
rolls equal to or higher than the teep on a d6, the jamming attempt is
unsuccessful (the earlier roll meant that the teep successfully *targetted* or
found the systems they were attempting to jam). Otherwise if the teep's roll
is higher then the jam attempt is successful and is implemented immediately.
Reroll this 'combat' each turn until either the Shadow vessel is destroyed or
the Shadow breaks free. Or the teep is killed (on a threshold check like ship
systems).

If the main drives are targetted and a successful jam takes place, the Shadow
vessel stops moving (no inertia to carry it forward; it just DON'T move!).

There's a lot more that can be fleshed out here, but I haven't the time right
this moment to brainstorm more. But this should plant some seeds for those who
want to try this stuff out.

That is a beautiful concept. I am reminded that in the later shows they had
banks of teeps on duty. Let me make it even more Genre based. In B5 the
teeps all had a P level.  PsiCorp said this went from 1-10. 1 being Deja
Vu like ability and 10 being Bester. It is a logrithmic scale with the
majority of teeps being 1's, with the rest rapidly decending in number until
you get to a handful of 10's. The of course their is John Ironheart who is
a P20 (X-Men level).

So, here is a quickly cobbled together table. Rank your Teep bank at a
particular P-Lvl.  Each teep gets 1 die.  Each Range Band (RB) is 6mu.
So a
P-10 can reach out 60mu.  Your typical P5 can reach out 30mu.

P-lvl  Dice/RB      % of Population  Cost (no mass)
-----  -----------  ---------------  --------------
1      1/1          34%                 2
2      1/2          17%                 3
3      1/3          11%                 7
4      2/4           9%                15
5      2/5           7%                36
6      2/6           6%                91
7      3/7           5%               182
8      3/8           4%               365
9      3/9           4% (rnd)         729
10     4/10          3%              1458
...
20     5/20         Unique          Unique

This makes up through P5 reasonable. As for the rediculous cost of the higher
leves, consider this, after P6 I altered the formula which other wise would
have tripled the cost of the P10. The cost reflects the rarity of the teep and
not any actual money, per say. Basically they are a hard resource to come by.
You could also use a deck of cards and the decent p5 and above's are face
cards. After you paid a basic price you then draw from the
deck.  if you end up with a non face card you have a P1-4 depending on
the card.

Better yet, forget points, these guys are genre gimics and should only appear
in scenarios.

Each die produces the following effects

1-3: "I'm picking up an offer from 1-800-mypsychic...",  No Effect
4: Slow main drive by 1
5: Slow main drive by 1/2 disable 1 weapon (defenders choice)
6: Shadow main drive fully disabled, all weapons fully disabled this turn.

Anyway that is off the top of my head.

> Peter Mancini wrote:

Aaaaactually, PsiCorps rated teeps up to 12. :-)  Bester was one of the
top end 12s (with some rumor that he may have been slightly stronger; I
*think*, iirc the books correctly, there was a Director of PsiCorps who was a
13). Lyta Alexander was much, much, MUCH stronger after the Vorlons got done
with her (but that's neither here nor there).

> It is a logrithmic scale with the

I don't recall Jason I. getting an official rating, but then again,
neither did our Lyta.  :-)  Whichever, he was a 'superman' in the teep
world.

> So, here is a quickly cobbled together table. Rank your Teep bank at
 So a
> P-10 can reach out 60mu. Your typical P5 can reach out 30mu.

That's how brainstorming works! :-)

Now, how do the Shadows deal with this? Note it is obtusely implied in the
show that the early Shadow vessels do not have teeps aboard, whereas later in
the series there were supposed to be teeps (as being
supplied by PsiCorps - let alone knows who else!) commanding these
things.

> That's how brainstorming works! :-)

Also there is Teep endurance to consider. Perhaps your bank of teeps has 6
endurance points. Each turn you use them you burn an endurance. If you

fail to get your result you can roll again at half your normal dice rating
rounded down for another endurance. Expensive but then again we are talking
the Shadows. So if your P5 gets 2 dice and comes up the the Psychic Hotline,
you can roll 1 die extra but at the cost of an extra endurance
point.  :-)  I like it!

Perhaps the teep pilots get a rating and each 6 they roll cancles a 6 or

less rolled against them, each 5 a 5 or less, each 4 a 4. Interesting!

> Peter Mancini wrote:

> Right! I think it would be very unbalancing on second thoght and

I think that the Sa'Vasku rules (as written in FB2) can be used to create
perfectly good shadow vessels if you dedicate 40% of hull mass to power
generators (up to 20 thrust, or more beam dice than you can shake a stick at,
or REALLY long
range.  Ships for fighter or anti-fighter operations trade power for
hull

I don't know that 20 thrust is really important. I can't recall their ships
moving at unbelivable rates of speed. Can someone recall an episode where they
did?

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> Peter Mancini wrote:

> I don't know that 20 thrust is really important. I can't recall their

It is not that they move at incredible speeds, it is that they can quickly
change direction, even with vector movement. In cinematic, it almost allows
you to be anywhere you want on the table (although, you won't have anything to
fire). The thrust of 20 is actually a side

> Richard Bell wrote:

In my designs my 250mass SDs have a energy output of about 80. I also don't
really bother with drones. I go with pod launchers instead.

Again - I don't think this works then.  There are lots of chase scenes
and the Shadows don't have the ability to chase things down that fast. I think
that if you want you could give them the ability to zero all momentum at the
cost of 1 thrust point, face any direction with another thrust point and then
go. That actually makes some sense... Inertia dampening drives!

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