Someone suggested using small ships to make a high speed pass, to either 1)
needle beam his drives, 2) knock out his "bonzai jammers" and then launch
missiles. I see this as a waste of points.
1) against any large ship, especially with us, 4 FC is not uncommon. So he'll
destroy 4 tiny ships with his first ship. The next 4 with the next big ship if
the fleets are large enough. Figuring on a 1 hit point ship with its special
weapon, mass of 6 or 7, costing about 25, means to have any chance you need 8
(or more). There's goes 200 points. *poof* gone. If I have 1500 points it
might be worth to have a few more. But I see it as a high risk adventure with
slim chance of succeeding (but I did design a mass 7 suicide needle beamer).
2) Fast ships don't gain any defenses from speed. So instead you're wasting
valuable real estate (mass) for some maneuverability that probably won't
matter due to point 1 above. Once you're within range of his guns and you
don't have your biggies there then what else is he going to shoot at?
Also, someone said to attack from two different sides. Why? What's the
difference? He can still fire at anything with everything, after accounting
for FCs. I have done best from the front or rear arcs since some of his
weapons don't have arcs there (FX and RX arc styles from SFB) but it is hard
to stay in those arcs when you don't know which way he is going to turn (can't
we see the rudder? <grin>).
anyway, I got some new designs to try out.. thanks for all the advice so far.
Glen
> GBailey@aol.com wrote:
> Someone suggested using small ships to make a high speed pass,
The point is here is have you played the ancient game of snakes?:) There the
theoretical best idea is to go cover the entire play area with u turns at the
end of the play area and cover it entirely that way...(Wheee I'm getting side
tracked here...) What I was trying to say is that you have your small ships go
back and fourth gaining speed so that when you've got enough speed you can get
all the way into him and get him with your sub packs or beams or whatever...
And personally I suggest using frigate or so sized ships, possibly with enough
of them to swamp your opponents FC... (And of course your big ships should be
there too...otherwise what else do you want to use to pull away his fire...)
With only a single round or so before you're out of range you should be able
to kill his banzai's and get your own ships repaired and then simply strike
him really really hard with standard SML's.. That's what I would do anyway..
> 2) Fast ships don't gain any defenses from speed. So instead
Of course who said you can't play unorthodox....:) Make thrust 2 ships and try
to gain around 25 in speed...that way you get heavier payload and still lots
of speed..:) Though this isn't probably very smart...
> Also, someone said to attack from two different sides. Why?
I still understand why you don't make a simply head on run with 1 arc 3's
all in the front and 1 in speed...with his multi-arc beams he'll be
seriously under beamed compared to you...It will be dead boring but you'll
make your point...
> anyway, I got some new designs to try out.. thanks for all the
This is just my 2 credits..
> Someone suggested using small ships to make a high speed pass,
Sorry Guys, but as no-one else has dared comment on this yet I just HAVE
to say something..... anyone else got a mental picture of a (probably
japanese) starship surrounded by hordes of missile decoys shaped like little
ornamental trees......?
Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(runs away screaming).
*****
By the way Jon, did you get the Dogfight submission?
Neath Southern Skies - http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/
[mkw] Admiral Peter Rollins; Task Force Zulu
[pirates] Prince Rupert Raspberry; Base Commander
> -----Original Message-----
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Ground Zero Games wrote:
> >Someone suggested using small ships to make a high speed pass,
no, no, it's not the shape, it's the method. y'see <tale size=tall> the term
'bonsai jammer' describes a human doctrine which is essentially copied from
the sa'vasku. as we all know, the SV ships are biological; they are born, they
grow, and they die. SV ships reach an adult size of
about 200 mass for males, 300 for females. smaller ships (20-100 mass)
are generally juveniles of some sort.
now, it happens that sometimes the sv need to defend themselves a kind of
parasite which travels through space at high speed, seeking out nearby SV
ships to feed on; the defence they have evolved against this is to surround
themselves with a flock of decoys which die under the parasite onslaught,
saving the bigger ships. they can't just use baby SV for this, as surviving
decoys would then go on to grow up, leaving the pod overpopulated and short of
resources.
instead, they use as yet unclear methods, probably involving feeding of a
restricted diet, to inhibit the growth of a population of ships, giving them a
pool of perpetually small ships to defend the rest of the pod. it is the fact
that they are carefuly cultivated with the specific aim of maintaining a small
size that led to the term 'bonsai' being used; bonsai jammers are just the
human equivalent of this ancient SV strategy.
> Jon (GZG), who is up FAR too late for this sort of thing....
late? your header indicates that it was only six past midnight when you wrote
that. puny human!
tom
ps what, you expect a </tale>?
In a message dated 01/20/2000 6:05:22 PM Central Standard Time,
jon@gzg.com writes:
> Sorry Guys, but as no-one else has dared comment on this yet I just
I have a picture of that anime series, Tenchi Muyo, in my head. ;-)
Meanwhile back at the topic... I think everyone else has already said it, but
I have a couple pennies lying
around here. My favorite two answers to this type of mildly-mobile
bases are
the SMs/fighters approach or the out-beaming approach. Oerjan laid it
all out, you can buy more dice with more restricted arcs and use your
maneuvering thrust to keep him in arc. Concentrate fire. Stay out of range of
his C1s while keeping him in range of your C2s. Overwhelm him from a distance.
Of course, in a campaign setting, your fast fleet would dodge right by his
hulks and attack the real target.
> Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, thanks, just haven't had the chance to read it yet! Will pass it on to
the editor.
Jon (GZG)
> Neath Southern Skies - http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/
In a message dated 1/21/00 2:01:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> owner-gzg-digest@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU writes:
> around here. My favorite two answers to this type of mildly-mobile
Of
> course, in a campaign setting, your fast fleet would dodge right by
It's not that easy to keep ships in narrow arcs when close. I've designed
360 degree all class-2 beam ships, so I can outbeam him. One was used
once by another and it dished out some damage. We still lost due to other
factors. I don't use them cause it's cheesy.
You don't leave a dangerous enemy in your rear area. What about your assault
ships waiting off somewhere while the fleet tries to drive off the enemy?
Glen
Geez, I go offline for a day and a half and y'all swamp the mail! Wow...wonder
what monday will bring...
> around here. My favorite two answers to this type of mildly-mobile
Save yourself some points, and get 50% more C2s by designing ships New
Israeli style: use off-set arcs (ie ALL beams are either F/FS/AS or
F/FP/AF). So instead of having 360s, you buy 50% more C2s and put them
all in the same off-set arc. Then you can either:
1) circle around him like a wagon train, or
2) do a pass, turn around, do another pass, but roll your ships (see also
FleetBook page 5, left column, at top: "Rolling Ships") to put him back in arc
again.
Is the 'all-beams are off-set' cheesy? Well....your call. Noam doesn't
think so. ;-)
Mk
> Glen Bailey wrote:
> Someone suggested using small ships to make a high speed pass,
You don't need small ships to use needle beams or knock out Banzai
jammers. I used small ships to knock out BJs in the recent - well, not
so recent now - FSE vs NSL battles I reported to the list, but that was
mainly because the FSE doesn't have any larger ships which don't use
SMs :-/
> 1) against any large ship, especially with us, 4 FC is not uncommon.
If those 200 pts can kill enough of his BJs to allow your Salvo Missiles to
kill 150 pts of battleship each, it's still worth it.
> 2) Fast ships don't gain any defenses from speed.
Completely wrong IMO. Fast ships gain the ability to not be in the
range bands where the slow ships outgun them - range band 3 (24-36 mu)
in your case. Being able to avoid getting outshot definitely counts as
"defenses" in my book.
> It's not that easy to keep ships in narrow arcs when close.
In Cinematic, and if "narrow arcs" means a single arc, I agree
(particularly if that arc is (F) - I find broadside arcs to be easier
to use).
> I've designed 360 degree all class-2 beam ships, so I can outbeam
C2-3 batteries (ie, 3-arc) are almost as easy to aim, and give you 50%
more firepower to boot. If you are afraid of overshooting, use off-set
arcs (all weapons covering the F/FP/AP arc) and roll ships if the enemy
is uncouth enough to be on your "blind" side.
> One was used
C2-6 batteries cheesy? And you don't think his units to be that?
Jeez... The C2-6 is a decent weapon, and it is certainly very easy to
use, but it's not exactly all-conquering.
> You don't leave a dangerous enemy in your rear area. What about your
I don't consider it dangerous to leave a thrust *1* enemy force behind.
It can't catch anything anyway - not even my assault transports or
fleet train units, since they are thrust 2 or faster.
Regards,
btw, we allow firing out the rear arc.
1) his BJs aren't that small. Either 14 mass with a C2 beam, or mass 24
with a C2 beam and 2 SMRs, now redesigned as mass 34 and extended ranging the
2 SMRs. Not easy to take out with any small to medium sized ship.
2) so you come in from out of range to within 12". Unless you have the
initiative, more than likely at close range he'll destroy or cripple half your
force, you get 1 shot to do some damage, then his second ship destroys or
cripples the remainder. So now many points are tied up in ships that are
either destroyed or out of the fight. And what does your 1 shot do? Dink some
armor? Take out 1 very small BJ (leaving another 5)? With initiative you get
two shots. I've looked as using small ships, I just don't see them as a
winning solution, ever. Have you faced 26 beam dice of damage from one ship?
Figure on six of those being 6s? Add in four 5s. Figure on two of the rerolls
as 6s. It's not pretty to be on the receiving end.
I'll see if I can get one of his designs. I've created various similar
designs: (think of the WW2 BBs) Mass 184, Maneuver 1, FTL, weak hull, 20
armor;
weapons: 8 C3s with 5 arcs, 4 at AP+FP+F+FS+AS, 4 at FP+AP+A+AS+FS
(4 quad turrets, 2 forward and 2 aft); 2 C2s with 6 arcs (secondaries); 8 C1s;
2 pulse torpedoes, AP+FP, FS+AS (I don't know why he added these
recently); 6 PDS, 1 ADFC (so if two "BBs" are present that's 12 PDS to deal
with), 4 FCs. Cost: 658
Sorry, that's 36 beam dice. Make it 72 with 2 of these in a 1500 pt fleet.
Figure the rest of the points are SMR missile boats that act as BJs as well.
Tell me a tactic that works against this. Cinematic movement. I know your
first response: SMs. Give me a sample fleet of this and then try one without
overdoing the SMs (I try to stay in a Star Trek flavor since I use those
miniatures most of the time).
Glen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
------------------------------
From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
> Someone suggested using small ships to make a high speed pass,
You don't need small ships to use needle beams or knock out Banzai
jammers. I used small ships to knock out BJs in the recent - well, not
so recent now - FSE vs NSL battles I reported to the list, but that was
mainly because the FSE doesn't have any larger ships which don't use
SMs :-/
> 1) against any large ship, especially with us, 4 FC is not uncommon.
If those 200 pts can kill enough of his BJs to allow your Salvo Missiles to
kill 150 pts of battleship each, it's still worth it.
> 2) Fast ships don't gain any defenses from speed.
Completely wrong IMO. Fast ships gain the ability to not be in the
range bands where the slow ships outgun them - range band 3 (24-36 mu)
in your case. Being able to avoid getting outshot definitely counts as
"defenses" in my book.
> I'll see if I can get one of his designs. I've created various
It would appear that attack/torpedo fighters would be pretty decent even
with the 12 pds. Say in a 1500 pt fleet you could get up to 10 groups.
Depending on which Star Trek you follow the StarFleetBattles Federation used
fighters quite heavily in the later years. Anyway, even if he manages to wipe
half of your fighters that is still 30 dice of damage. If they are torp
fighters he is done. And as for his BBs engaging your carriers...hehehe. I
would just love to see his face as you spend 3 turns just launching fighters.
WARNING! There are quite a few bits marked <sarcasm> in this post!
I'm sorry, Glen, but I'm beginning to get a distinct impression that you have
decided that your opponent's designs are unbeatable and that you don't want to
try anything which might shake you both out of that
belief. I hope this impression is false, but it - and your tone of
writing, as well - has coloured this reply.
Glen Bailey complained:
> btw, we allow firing out the rear arc.
Even when you used the main drive (if you didn't it's allowed anyway)?
House rules are all very well, but they do change the game balance -
sometimes quite a bit. In this case you're suffering from it. If you don't
like the effect of your own house rules, change them or drop them.
> 1) his BJs aren't that small. Either 14 mass with a C2 beam, or mass
If BJs aren't many they won't soak up enough incoming missiles. If they aren't
small and cheap they're decent missile targets in their own right. If they are
many but not small and cheap they are *way* too expensive. In short, BJs have
to be small, cheap and many.
5-6 DD-sized ships aren't many, aren't particularly small, and aren't
very cheap. In short, they don't work very well as BJs.
> 2) so you come in from out of range to within 12". Unless you have
Dink some armour? Think again. 6-8 dice per small fry (subpacks) tend
to do more than that, particularly against "very small BJs" - which you
yourself just claimed that he had none. Usually quite enough to put a nasty
dent into a super destroyer or escort cruiser as well, though.
Kill BJs are exactly what the BJ-killers are there to do. However, if
he doesn't have BJs you can lead with your main ships instead. No need to
clear away units which don't exist <shrug>
> Have you faced 26 beam dice of damage from one ship?
<sarcasm> I've played Full Thrust for the past six years. What do you think,
could I possibly have faced big, overgunned ships occasionally?
</sarcasm>
> Figure on six of those being 6s? Add in four 5s. Figure on two of
The average damage from 24 dice is 19.2. The dice you list above add up
to 18, plus probably some 4s you've forgotten - may or may not be
important, depending on whether or not you use screens. Either way, it doesn't
look that much above average.
> I'll see if I can get one of his designs. I've created various
Probably because you're using either screens or heavy armour.
> 6 PDS, 1 ADFC (so if two "BBs" are present that's 12 PDS to deal
Try this ship to fight it with:
Mass 184 Cost 643
Thrust-4
FTL Weak hull (37 boxes) 15 armour
Screen-1
4 FC 1 ADFC 6 PDS
28 Class-2 batteries (FP/F/FS or F/FP/FA arcs)
This ship is fast enough to avoid the 24-36mu range band completely. It
outguns the sample barge above by 30-40% once inside 24mu, as long as
you keep him in your forward 180 arc - which shouldn't be that
difficult given the differences in thrust rating. Oh, and those 30-40%
don't include the effects of your screen which stops about 20% of his beam
fire.
If you don't like putting all eggs in only two baskets, split it up
into two Mass 90-ish BCs instead.
If you can, maneuver to end your movement in the spot he occupied the
previous turn - it is guaranteed to be in his rear arc, which cuts his
firepower by at least a third. Enjoy rolling 56 dice against an
unscreened target (average damage 44.8) to his 24 dice against screen-1
(average damage 15.2). Even if he wins initiative he's unlikely to inflict a
single threshold on you with one salvo, while you're quite likely to inflict
*two* thresholds on him with your salvo.
If you can't get into his rear arc, approach from ahead but turn aside
and circle him in the 12-24mu range band instead of overshooting. No
need to let him use those C1 batteries or get good hit numbers for his pulse
torps. You only roll 28 dice per salvo, but OTOH he's reduced to 18 dice and
up to 1 pulse torp.
> Figure the rest of the points are SMR missile boats that act as BJs
"The rest of the points" in a 1500 pt battle using two of the above
barges are 184. About enough to buy 3 Mass-16 ships, each of which
can't possibly carry more than 2 SMRs - and that assumes a slow,
brittle ship, too, otherwise it's 1 SMR per ship.
<sarcasm> Gee, I'm really scared of that SMR salvo... and three BJs protecting
two targets are absolutely guaranteed to divert enough SMs to protect
his ships if I choose to buy SMRs of my own instead of C2-3 batteries.
</sarcasm>
If his capitals are smaller (likely, if they only throw 24 dice at close
range) he can have more SMRs. Handle them just like he handles
yours - point defence and ADFC - or dodge them.
> Tell me a tactic that works against this. Cinematic movement.
You've already recieved posts from several people which tell you just that.
Read them.
> I know your first response: SMs.
You obviously didn't read my first response to your initial request for help,
then. My immediate reaction, quite early in the post, was "use
3-arc C2 batteries".
<sarcasm>
3-arc C2 batteries are not the same as SMs AFAIK.
</sarcasm>
> Give me a sample fleet of this and then try one
If you use SMs, you need to spend between one-third and half of your
total weapon Mass on them - otherwise you have too few of them to make
an impression, or else don't have enough secondaries to clean up the mess left
by the missiles. What you are saying is effectively this:
"Give me a sample fleet using SMs, but make sure it is suboptimal because
otherwise I won't use it."
Your choice to use a poor fleet mix of course, but don't blame me when you
lose.
Your problems seem to be:
1) You use a house rule which favours him (rear-arc fire allowed even
while using the main drive)
2) You don't know how to aim or dodge SMs - in fact, according to your
own words you don't know how to maneuver at all 3) Your ships come from a
specific background, and are therefore severely restricted as to what weapons
and fire arcs you consider "acceptable".
You have only yourself to blame for 3), and yourself or your gaming
group for 1). I suspect you'll overcome 2) eventually - as I said
earlier, it took me quite some time and a number of spectacular defeats to
learn how to maneuver well in Cinematic.
Regards,
In a message dated 01/22/2000 6:43:29 AM Central Standard Time,
> GBailey@aol.com writes:
> Tell me a tactic that works against this. Cinematic movement. I know
> without
Hiya Glenn,
Well, that does depend on your flavor of ST.Do you mean Star Fleet Battles? Or
something more true to the series? If the latter, you are stuck with
outbeaming him. There is a possibility too that the designs of the Star Trek
universe are not well-suited to play against these BBs. Would you mind
showing us some of your designs? What is your fleet composition? It appears
that your opponent's two BBs compose around 80% of his points. How many
vessels are you fighting against? Are you playing on a floating map or static
map? One thing you might be able to do to defeat his fleet is to
introduce a fleet-composition house rule. We had such a rule in Brian
Bell's Cygnus fleet game (URL:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/rlyehable/ft/pbem/cygnus/rules.html) that
worked quite well I think.
Have you considered the Klingons? ;-) Their designs are beam-heavy.
And they look cool ta boot! Hmm, I think I'll stop by Armageddon Outfitter
(URL:
http://www.primenet.com/~reynol/gaming/war/ao/fbsd/) and whip up a
Klingon BB in a bit just to see what it looks like...
You COULD design ships with 3-arc C2s on one broadside that could roll
as necessary. The design would be lopsided and odd. For cinematic movement
though, it allows you to circle him at the range of your choice. I have not
attempted this, and it would be much more difficult on a static map. And it
might be considered cheese, but sometimes we fight fire with fire. :-)
In a message dated 1/22/00 7:43:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
GBailey@aol.com writes:
> I'll see if I can get one of his designs. I've created various
> without
Well, if the flavor is Star Trek, and you are talking about Federation
designs, you will have to stick with SM and fighters or just going with the
beam-2 approach (then get within 24 fast and stay outside of 12), but if
you're talking Klingons...
...you could make the case for a nice load of D6D drone cruisers and call the
drones either MT missiles or SM (or, mayber better yet, extended range
SM).
For a design for the D6D, just come up with a thrust 4, 3 SML, 2 beam-2
(180 degree) design, and tack on a shield generator. A weak hull is okay if
you plan on staying out beyond 24". Call it a Mass 72 vessel. Roughly 240
points or so (I haven't done the design, this is just off the top of my
head). Add in something for him to concentrate his fire on--lots of
armor,
screen-2, call it a C8 or D8 or something like that--but shoot that ship
last (I'm assuming that you don't allow your opponent to see your ship control
sheets) so he doesn't realize how weak it is offensively. Or you could just go
with a bunch of SMR units and call them (in SFB terms) scatterpack shuttles
off of Kzinti drone frigates...the possibilities are endless!
Personally, I have very bad luck with SM and would just take the massive
Beam-2 approach myself, or massed pulse torps (and call my ships
Romulans--oooh-there's another idea--use cloaked ships to choose your
range--thrust 2 or 3 will do for those).
Whatever approach you use--good luck!
Rob
In a message dated 1/23/00 2:01:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> owner-gzg-digest@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU writes:
> From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
Yes. How does it throw off the balance? If he can fire out the rear then I
can, too. And I do.
My last post came about from frustation since I just came from a night of
combat. I lost twice, but then my partner takes one of my designs and doesn't
do what it is designed to do. He runs off away from the area defense
ship I was running and gets toasted by 6 salvos. The second had my
12 MT missiles miss his movement 1 ships. I think I didn't lead him enough. I
must really suck at maneuvering.:) In the third game it was Steve, who was on
my side for a change, who's BB
got toasted by SMs because he got split from his psuedo-BJs and my ADFC
(a Nova Cannon split our force, ours split theirs up, too). I couldn't help
but smirk thinking "about time" and "now you know how it feels". The game
ended early so could not tell who would have won with what's left.
I admit it. "Standard" designs can't beat his. I've been toying with "weird"
designs (i.e., a 16 needle beam ship). I'll try the massive 3 arc C2s and roll
if necessary (I keep forgetting about this). It doesn't fit with any minis but
I'll call it an Ohka. But first I came
up with another idea: 2 cruiser-sized 4 Needle Beam ships and a small
Nova Cannon ship plus whatever with remaining points. I'll go for the drives
and once hit then just line up the NC from outside 36" and pop him every turn.
He'll probably be able to FTL away unless I want to modify my needle attack
and attempt both the maneuver and FTL drives. This brings up a question:
If two hits by needle beams are scored on the manuever drive in
one volley does the drive get reduced to 0 or just to 1/2 as if hit
once?
> <sarcasm>
I>'ve played Full Thrust for the past six years. What do you think,
> could I possibly have faced big, overgunned ships occasionally?
I'm humbled. I've been playing for 6 months, once or twice a week.:)
> If you can, maneuver to end your movement in the spot he occupied the
*sigh* why didn't I ever think of this? I bow to the Master. I'm still
studying your Maneuver 101 class assignments and doing
the "lab" work (or is that "field study"?). :)
Glen
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 07:42:45 EST
From: GBailey@aol.com
Subject: Re: FT tactics vs slow ships, tiny ships are toast
> Have you faced 26 beam dice of damage from one ship?
Only 26? :-)
> Tell me a tactic that works against this. Cinematic movement. I know
> Glen Bailey wrote:
> > > btw, we allow firing out the rear arc.
It is a lot harder for a thrust-1 ship to keep its rear arc (or "blind
spot", to use the Starfire term) away from the enemy than it is for a
thrust-4 or faster ship. Because of this, thrust-1 ships gain more from
this house rule than thrust-4 ships do, and he's the one flying
thrust-1 ships.
> My last post came about from frustation since I just came from a
> defense ship I was running and gets toasted by 6 salvos.
:-(
> The second had my 12 MT missiles miss his movement 1 ships. I think I
Sounds likely, yes.
> I admit it. "Standard" designs can't beat his.
Depends on what you consider a "standard" design <shrug> I wouldn't
mind taking a Fleetbook force in an 1500-pt battle against the
battlewagons you described in your previous post (not NAC, though <g>). But,
well... that's me <g>
> But first I came
> Nova Cannon ship plus whatever with remaining points. I'll go for the
Two FCs on each needle ship. The first ship to shoot fires two needles at
either of his ships' main drives; the second also fires two needles at each
target, but goes for the FTL drive if the first took the main drives out.
If you're using the FTL rules on FT p.24 and his capitals were within ADFC
range of one another when their drives went, they may have some trouble going
into FTL, too... having a capital ship blow up in the
middle of a formation can be quite spectacular :-)
> This brings up a question:
A 1-point drive gets reduced to 0 on the first needle hit or failed
threshold roll. Not sure if the rules say this explicitly anywhere, but it's
in the FT FAQ at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/3565/faq-index.html , in the
FB1 section.
> >If you can, maneuver to end your movement in the spot he occupied
Another of those things I didn't realise until I had played a couple of years
<shrug>
Well, the start spot is not *entirely* guaranteed to be in his rear arc
- if he makes a 4-point turn it will be on the very edge of his rear
arc, and if he makes a 5-point turn or more it'll actually be outside
the rear arc... but unless Steve suddenly starts using Kra'Vak ships
(or thrust 8+ human ships) it'll hold true <g>
> I bow to the Master.
<g>
Good hunting,
In a message dated 01/23/2000 1:03:25 PM Central Standard Time,
> Noam.Izenberg@jhuapl.edu writes:
> FOrget SM's. Take my fleet from Brian Bell's BYOF game. Thrust 4,
Trust me Glen, these hurt!! ;-)
Bill
Beam 5s Steve and Glen have enough problems with my beam 4s. It comes down to
this; the faster ships gets you to the range you can explot better than a
slower ship. You just have to have a range were you have an advantage.
Andy
[quoted original message omitted]
In a message dated 1/20/2000 7:25:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> BDShatswell@aol.com writes:
> Meanwhile back at the topic. . .
Of
> course, in a campaign setting, your fast fleet would dodge right by
There's were you need a nova mine (I saw the rules for this on line some
place) and then have the ship that is laying it move at a high rate of speed.
In a line a breast formation that would be very messy.
-Stephen
Mk said:
> Save yourself some points, and get 50% more C2s by designing
"Islamic Federation style", you mean. I haven't heard anyone else say anything
about its being cheesy, it's just not immediately obvious.
> From: "Andrew Apter" <apter@prodigy.net>
Yeah, but the "plinking" game is boring. But so is losing constantly.
:(
I may try a 5 beamer or a fast 4 beamer until he changes his ways. I already
have a 6 x C4 beam with a M drive of 6 that fires out the side
arcs (FP+AP). I haven't played with it yet, maybe it's time.
I could look at this a test of various designs against a strong capital ship.
Which, btw, I decided to write up myself just to see what I can come up with.
I even made the sillhouttes to match. Man, do they look nasty. My "Iowa" class
can dish out 45 beam dice at short range, costs 823 (it even has a "Tomahawk"
extended range SMR). My "Ohka" class ship to fight it costs 800 and has 32 C2s
and 12 PDS.
Glen
> On 24-Jan-00 at 15:48, GBailey@aol.com (GBailey@aol.com) wrote:
:(
> I may try a 5 beamer or a fast 4 beamer until he changes his ways.
If you really want to be nasty about it use a single ship. A big ship (in my
experience) destroys an equivalent point value of small ships.
> Laserlight wrote:
Actually, it is immediately obvious!
I think the NI and the IF should shoot it out to see who can claim the 'honor'
of this brand of cheese.
Shall we do a survey?
Bye for Now,
Laserlight responded:
> Mk said:
No, meant 'New Israeli' style - because Noam's NI ships are the
only ones I've encountered with the all-C2s-offset-to-one-side
designs.
M 'back from being offline for 4 days - yeesh!' k
> Actually, it is immediately obvious!
Which is why so many of the ship designs we see posted, um,
_don't_ use this? :-)
> I think the NI and the IF should shoot it out to see who
Noam has been too preoccupied with RL to fight a PBeM battle lately, I've
asked.
Laserlight responded:
> Mk said:
> No, meant 'New Israeli' style - because Noam's NI ships are the
You mean you haven't _memorized_ my website? I'm mortally
offended. :-)
<No gauntlets available, I'll have to make do with those cheap brown serge
gloves...Whack! Whack!>
Actually, I've been too preoccupied to fight in a _fourth_ PBeM. I think
I'm suffering in the second and third, though the first is in a break in the
action. Once NEAR hits rendezvous week lord knows what my fleets are going to
be doing.
The NI fleet as presented in my pages is more traditional than the ship's
Indy's fought. Someday (read no sooner than April, probably) I'm going to
overhaul the whole thing, probably putting back my broadside designs.
Relatedly, I just received a new batch of Brigade minis. I'll take this
opportunity again to propose/request/beseech Brigade models be
recognized in some way as the (or at least an alternative) source of New
Israeli ships. They're pretty darn neat. (I know, I know, nothing's been said,
nor likely will be. I can dream.) I'm already champing at the bit to get my
hands on the upcoming Excal^H^H^H^H^H Jericho. Now all I have to do is find a
way to work a Wave Gun or Nova Canon into the NI fleet doctrine.
Eventually I will have new additions to the fleet and gallery.
Noam said
> Relatedly, I just received a new batch of Brigade minis. I'll
No problem, a Wave Gun is something like a scattergun with antimatter pellets.
Alarish builds them (Tunguska class) and might be willing to sell them to
certain limited clientele.