> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:22:40 John M. Atkinson wrote:
More interesting to me: how do they get *home* from work? Is it possible to
cloak a shuttle or launch to allow covert recovery? Some sort of updated
version of the Fulton Recovery system (the personal beanstalk!)?
Space Opera-style grav belts?
If there's no good way to exfiltrate a team, it kind of limits their use
to take-and-hold sorts of missions.
Thoughts?
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Insertion and Extraction
Insertion Methods: Orbital Drop in Stealthed Drop Caps
- This could look like a meteor shower
Low Orbit Drop in Power Armour/Grav Chutes
Deployment Via Lander/Shuttle (with Stealth)
Deployment Via Main Vessel (if stealthed and capable of landing in a sea or
the like).
Infiltration as part of civilian crew/traffic
Extraction Grav Belt to High Altitude RV with Stealthed ship Stealthed Main
Vessel (return to the sea, board ship, escape offworld) Stealthed Lander
Skyhook Extraction System on fast pass of stealthed lander
Exfiltartion as part of civilian crew/traffic
Go to ground for later extraction or to help in later operations (go Native!)
These are just some suggestions. Perhaps Los or some of the others have some
suggestions. The trick is to make an undetected approach to the planet for the
Jump Capable ship (for both Infil and exfil
operations) and to extract/insert the troops from the atmospheric
envelope without detection (either by camouflaging them as something
like meteors or by having anti-detection tech good enough to prevent
any detection).
My 0.02.
Tom.
/************************************************
They need to be picked up by a specailops vehicle just as they were dropped
off. Taht's why it's mportant to spend time designing that ship so that it's
stealthy. I suppose beanstalk is possible (if your tech supports it). But
what's the signature? As is a fulton like system (they're really almost never
ever used because the fatality rate is so high)
Insertion and extraction of SF teams are major operations usually involving
LARGE amounts of support even for one little ship going down.
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Insertion Methods:
Deployment via parachute by low orbit insertion froma Lander. Stealthier than
a drop cap. And less signatuire.
> Deployment Via Main Vessel (if stealthed and capable of landing in a
This is sort of a modern Fulton. You get them up to high alt, even for a few
minutes of seconds and it's timed right by a snatch froma lander.
> Stealthed Main Vessel (return to the sea, board ship, escape
A version of FULTON we call MPU (for message pick up)
> Exfiltartion as part of civilian crew/traffic
Another good method for populated worlds.
> Go to ground for later extraction or to help in later operations (go
(The usual method)--^
Los spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> > Insertion Methods:
Stealthier
> than a drop cap. And less signatuire.
That was one option. But maybe the drop cap has enough stealth caps
and anti grav that it makes a quiet 'hole-in-the-sky' landing with no
detection. In which case it is just as good. But I think the drop cap would
work well if you had PA. Meteors hitting the ocean (even if near shore) don't
merit attention. Your PA SF guys then walk ashore under water.
> > Deployment Via Main Vessel (if stealthed and capable of landing in a
Yep. Or Tractor Beam if you are hi-tech ish.
> > Stealthed Main Vessel (return to the sea, board ship, escape
Or maybe you have some sort of impact foam or bladder that you can use to
encase yourself for such High G pickups. Better odds than today of survival.
> > Exfiltartion as part of civilian crew/traffic
Or walk out. Only that doesn't work in space....
/************************************************
> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Los wrote:
> They need to be picked up by a specailops vehicle just as they were
What's a 'fulton like system'? Real world tech or speculative stuff? Curious,
Brian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
I believe the aerospace vehicle deploys a hook (Hence Fulton Skyhook) and the
operator deploys a balloon tied to a rope or whatever. (He is attached to
this). The vehicle makes a pass, snags the cable with the hook, and presto
changeo off goes the operator into the sky at teh end of the cable. Then they
are reeled in. I imagine the acceleration is quite obnoxious on the
individual. I would think using a bungee would be better (Los anyone tried
this?). In the future, acceleration cushioning via an intertial damper
(portable) may let you reduce the effects of this acceleration making htis
more useful.
> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Los wrote:
/************************************************
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> That was one option. But maybe the drop cap has enough stealth caps
I don't feel that you can always count on meteor showers hitting when you want
then, thus plan on using them for cover. If they even hit at all. The method
Heilne makes famous using multiple caps or cap parts to include spoofs or
decoys works great for a regular drop when you want to spoof targetting but
the point is not being seen. It has to be one capsule (or one per guy). Also I
imagine grav drives leaving some sort of DF-able signature that a
parachute/foil wouldn't so maybe they are used at the last moment before
landing.
Assuming the enemy is as intelligent as you (and of a similar Tech level) are
they would very soon be analyzing meteor showers in an attempt to increase
their target discrmmination. I would.
Good idea about the water, but screw the walking along the ocean floor. Just
have a submersible porpulsion attachment for the PA.
We should also discrimminate between between a clandestine insertion and a
stealth insertion. Clandestine (in our book) means that no one. Knows your
presence ever existed in the operational area. Stealth mean you were not
tracked coming in. So for a Stealth enterance, you could negate a small window
of the enemies defense coverage (Say over half the North American continent)
by jamming or the destruction of orbital or ground based systems. The hole
only hasn to last for insertion. The bad guys know something happened, butit's
sucha huge area they can't pin point who or what.
1. Clandestine Example: Canada and US are at peace. Tom's unit secretly
infiltrates the US posing as Montreal Canadiens fans heading to a Colorado
Avalanche Game. Their misison is to destroy the Budweiser corporate
headquartes for the blight they've left on the name of North American beer.
Once they blow the palce up They exfil in a similar fashion. Noone in the US
knows who did it, just that Budweiser blew up.
2. Stealth Example. We are at War with Canada over fishing rights. The
Canadian Navy and RCAF wild weasel units negate all sensor coverage of the new
england coast for 4 hours. Tom's unit conducts a SCUBA insertion into New
Bedford and blows up the New Bedford Dried Cod processing plant on Lisbon
avenue. Then tehy are extracted. We know it was the Canadians and we know it
was probably Barclay's rangers, but we were powerless to prevent them from
doing anything.
> Or maybe you have some sort of impact foam or bladder that you can
Well ships and fighters have inertia dameners. Maybe there is a small version
that'll work in a pick up capsule. Same principle.
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Brian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
This is almost never used for Humans and banned on and off. Saw a safety
bulletin video where they were hauling in a SEAL in a C130 when the cable
snapped 3 meters from the ramp.
The way they deal with the Gee accell is by using a bungee chord. As the plane
first snags the baloon you see the cable tighten, then he rockets off like a
sling
shot. Its really amazing. They did use it alot in the late sixties/early
seventies and you can see an example in "The Green Berets."
This sounds like how James Bond was picked up at the end of 'Thunderball'.
(Rather drastic acceleration - 0-300 knots in 2 seconds.)
'Neath Southern SKies
> -----Original Message-----
Los spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
Also I
> imagine grav drives leaving some sort of DF-able signature that a
Maybe. I guess if you can control grav, you might be able to detect
anti-grav, but I'd think limited in range hence if no detectors were
near you, you'd be okay.
As for the other matter, I wasn't waiting for a meteor shower. Today
we track about 1-3% of celestial bodies that will intercept Earth's
orbit. In the future, this may rise. But how high? I don't know. How
much tech does it take to support this - probably a fair bit. How far
will the range be? I don't imagine all that far. And things will avoid
detection (smaller meteors and such) because alarming every time a small
meteor came would be silly.
So your insertion is not covered by a meteor shower, but to the outside world,
a couple or six little hot things falling from the sky (from the cloaked
insertion vessel) into the ocean are not worthy of notice. Heck, the Greys
could be inserting guys like that on Earth today, with a population of five
billion, and we wouldn't know. In the future, this kind of insertion is dead
easy on colony worlds and feasible (probably) even on capital class worlds
(for small teams).
> Assuming the enemy is as intelligent as you (and of a similar Tech
I think you'd find 1. They are randomly distributed with little pattern 2.
They are inherently unpredicatable in density 3. Monitoring every small object
in nearspace is prohibitive 4. You'd tend to have your monitors (even if you
could watch for them) only pay attention to things that are either big enough
to be a problem wherever they hit or any sized object aimed at a population
centre. Well your SOF knows this, and they insert into the water (for
cushioning and dissipation of heat from the drop).
> Good idea about the water, but screw the walking along the ocean
Well, whatever. And maybe small subs like the Seals use. They could
be pod-dropped.
> We should also discrimminate between between a clandestine insertion
That's what I had in mind.
Stealth mean you were not
> tracked coming in. So for a Stealth enterance, you could negate a
Sure, that coudl be done, but isn't as good. Then he knows to be wary (in
general).
> 1. Clandestine Example: Canada and US are at peace. Tom's unit
Never happen. Ottawa Senators fans.
Their misison is to destroy the Budweiser corporate headquartes
> for the blight they've left on the name of North American beer.
Don't use the word Beer in that Context. It insults real beer.
Once they blow
> the palce up They exfil in a similar fashion. Noone in the US knows
(Except for the suspicious presence of slogans like "Remember the White House"
scrawled on bits of the rubble). (And an apology note, unsigned but polite and
using real English spelling, left to the workers).
> 2. Stealth Example. We are at War with Canada over fishing rights. The
(This is Fantasy...)
Tom's unit conducts a SCUBA insertion into New Bedford and
> blows up the New Bedford Dried Cod processing plant on Lisbon avenue.
Then tehy
> are extracted. We know it was the Canadians and we know it was
Historically, they'd quickly be afforded the nickname Barclay's B*st*rds. Such
as phrases sometimes heard at the gaming table "Tom, you lousy B*st..." (you
get the idea).
> > Or maybe you have some sort of impact foam or bladder that you can
Good idea.
/************************************************
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
Not exactly. The term meteor shower is usually reserved for above background
levels of meteor activity. This is usually caused by the Earth's orbit
intersecting regions of interplanetary debris. The debris is most commonly
attributable to comets, which are quite localized.
> 2. They are inherently unpredicatable in density
This may be true for a first observation of a meteor shower. Over time density
predictions improve in accuracy. I would say that meteor activity is more
predictable than say, seasonal weather patterns.
> 3. Monitoring every small object in nearspace is prohibitive
Agreed. The ability to predict does not imply that someone will spend the time
and money to actually make any.
> 4. You'd tend to have your monitors (even if you could watch for
This would depend on the target of your monitoring operations. You may only be
interested in objects within a very narrow size restriction. For example, it
isn't possible to fit a PA trooper in a meteor less than
3m, and it isn't necessary to put one in a pod that's 10m across. Also, you
may further limit your search to objects that should burn up in the
atmosphere, but don't. Of course, any such monitoring project would be
expensive in terms of satellite production and maintenance, computer hardware
and software development as well as personnel to keep it running. This aside,
it may be that colony ships deploy such sensors as part of their SOP. Also,
things may be made simpler if you just destroy every meteor bigger than some
threshold size out of hand.
> 1. Clandestine Example: Canada and US are at peace. Tom's unit
This seems to be right out of "Canadian Bacon"...
> (Except for the suspicious presence of slogans like "Remember the
"We are terribly sorry that you must be punished for crimes against humanity.
Real beer must have a darker colour, and be drinkable without being toxic."
Tony spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> >I think you'd find
Sure but your background level of activity is probably randomly distributed
and so a shower is not an impossibility.
> >2. They are inherently unpredicatable in density
But is that good enough to justify investigating every meteor
incursion? Especially on a non-core world?
> >3. Monitoring every small object in nearspace is prohibitive
yes.
> >4. You'd tend to have your monitors (even if you could watch for
> >problem wherever they hit or any sized object aimed at a population
> >cushioning and dissipation of heat from the drop).
> in the atmosphere, but don't.
Ah but I'm betting that isn't that easy to tell. Can you tell a
meteors type/density as it enters the atmosphere? Maybe. I don't
think I'd say so in 2183.
Of course, any such monitoring project
> would be expensive in terms of satellite production and maintenance,
I'll bet NASA and the NSA have one running for NAC on Earth, but probably
nowhere beyond Earth, Albion and other Inner colonies.
This aside, it may be that colony ships deploy such
> sensors as part of their SOP.
Depends on colonization model. If big, gov't funded, well to do colony
expidition, yes. If economics is a limiting factor, maybe one or two
satellites to watch your main camp area. Otherwise... other areas uncovered
(too expensive to protect bush).
Also, things may be made simpler if you
> just destroy every meteor bigger than some threshold size out of hand.
Even more expensive in some ways than monitoring and a high risk of accidental
failure....
"Mrs. Platt, His Majesty's Government Regrets To Inform You That Your Son,
Mathias, Was Killed When His Single Person AirStream Interface Glider Was
Mistaken For A Meteor By The Automated Defence
Systems...."
> >(Except for the suspicious presence of slogans like "Remember the
ROTFL!!!! (And must contain more than 4% alcahol... preferably
5-10%).
/************************************************
Los spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
Well, I assume any planet within the GZG universe suffers similar impacts (as
other bodies in our system do). It could be (I'm sure) better or worse to a
degree.
> > Sure, that coudl be done, but isn't as good. Then he knows to be
Sure, but more time (I think) is spent at peace. Then you do deniable clean
ops.
> The overwhelmingly vast majority of SOF insertions in wartime fall
You don't, but you might upgrade your forces alert status (from "Alert, we are
in a war" to "Alert, there might be guys landing").
imagery
> recon? SOF insertion. Assett pick up, LZ survey, etc etc etc. So many
Sure, but the ones you already protect you may just 'be that much more alert'.
And then try (your intel guys job) to figure out what the enemy comms blackout
was for.
> > ?(This is Fantasy...)
We have wild weasels. But taming them and teaching them to fly might be real
hard....
> Barclay's Bastards - Formerly the 932nd Regiment, Imperial
Tom.
/************************************************
> We have wild weasels. But taming them and teaching them to fly might
Which reminds me of the classic story "Mother Hitton's Little Kittuns". The
ultimate in both wild weasels AND planetary defense, all rolled into one
psychotic little package...
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> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> So your insertion is not covered by a meteor shower, but to the
Keep inmind I was talking about an insertion against a high Tech level
adversary. Anything less than that is gravy. Our planet has lots of things
hitting it. But what about others? Also you might get a planet that has a
single base or whatever and maybe not even sufficient orbital surveillance
coverage. In that case you can make insertions "over the horizon". Both Gowda
IV and 946 at Rot Hafen are good examples of that methodolgy. While the
assetts drop by the RNS Meadows uses your falling debris method as cover for a
capsule insertion.
> Sure, that coudl be done, but isn't as good. Then he knows to be wary
If you are at war with the enemy, then he is already wary (In general). The
overwhelmingly vast majority of SOF insertions in wartime fall into the latter
method of insertion. There are major EW assets as well as fire support and SAR
waiting in the wings in either direct support or just in case stuff. Think
about it. If you can blank a slice of the western hemisphere and insert
anywhere in North America. How the hell am I gonna know what target or even
why you blanked coverage. imagery recon? SOF insertion. Assett pick up, LZ
survey, etc etc etc. So many tgts no way to cover them all.
> > 2. Stealth Example. We are at War with Canada over fishing rights.
I know. Do you guys even have wild weasel? Or maybe you can subcontract with
that Australian Submarine to get you in <g>
> [quoted text omitted]
Barclay's bastards.... I like it!