> PART ONE
Thanks!
One thing. The fact that in the NAC,
> non-white or non "Anglo" populations are the majority (Then you add in
I
> can see as the years go on and the Anglican minority grows that the
I understand exactly where you're coming from - this point has been
raised twice now. As I said in my response to John, when the NAC was founded,
it was ONLY Quebec, Canada, the UK, and the various bits of the former US. I
assumed that the significant Hispanic portion of the population in the US and
Les Quebecois would have a real problem joining a new state which
didn't give them protection for their language and culture -
particularly given that the Quebecois had gone through the process of gaining
independance and the Hispanics had just finished fighting a race war... So, my
version of the NAC has integral protection for Spanish and French
built in from the beginning. English is the dominant force - lets be
honest here, with two hundred million English speaking Americans, seventy
million English speaking Brits, and fourty million English speaking Canadians
(OK, I'm inflating the numbers a bit, but I figure this doesn't happen 'til
several decades from now when the populations have grown) joining up together,
they're going to set it up with English as the dominant language. Following
the timeline as presented, with the Monarch becoming the head of state of the
new organization, English will be
enshrined in the new constitution. There are maybe 8 - 10 million
Francophones and maybe 50 - 70 million Hispanics joining up at the same
time, which is a SIGNIFICANT number of people - hence my assertion that
their languages and cultures get official recognition and protection from the
beginning.
Also, this conveniently works with the fact that the NAC absorbs Central
and South America later - they would have been more prepared to be
absorbed
knowing that Spanish was protected in the NAC anyway... (OK - Brazil is
a rather significant wrinkle, given that they speak Portugese, and there's 120
million of them... but we can iron that out later...)
What actually happens within the NAC as these large numbers of Spanish
speakers are brought into the lap of Her Majesty...? I figure it could go
two ways: the Spanish speakers are second-class citizens with the real
political power being held by the "rich north Anglo-Gringos" - leading
to all kinds of social unrest and political upheavals OR there are a couple of
smart, wise people with foresight and a sense of historical perspective who
recognize this problem way back at the beginning, enshrine protection for
Spanish in the NAC constitution when it is written, and when the LLAR is
absorbed, there is a ready made support structure of senior
bureaucrats/officials/etc from the NACs Spanish speaking areas to
welcome them and give them confidence SO the NAC avoids as much as possible
the severe social unrest that could happen if they tried to assimilate all of
South America by forcing them to Anglicize (*it wouldn't happen!!*) So, I
write a slightly utopian ideal, in which the founders of the NAC are clever,
anticipate the problem (initially because of the large Hispanic population
they have joining the NAC at its founding), and we don't have another civil
war within the NAC with the "Spanish" fighting the "English". You could
imagine a nightmare scenario, with the FSE backing Spanish insurgents
throughout the NAC sphere... hey, wait a minute... that might be
interesting... hmmm
The name "New Anglian" comes about for several reasons - the simplest
one being that the fine gentlemen at GZG who wrote the game wrote what they
thought was cool and wanted it that way - which is as good a reason as
any (they aren't making public policy, afterall, but writing a game that they
will enjoy). Using the reasoning in the game universe - they picked New
Anglian 'cause it was the US, Canadian and UK that formed the real core of the
NAC at the beginning. It had its large minority populations, but the massive
influx of Spanish people didn't come 'til much later, by which time the NAC
had matured and the Anglo populations had grown, etc etc etc.
A sticking point for me in all this is the whole issue of Quebec joining at
all. I wrote my history with the idea that the Quebecois joined relatively
easily, after they were guarenteed protection in the NAC constitution. I
wonder, however, if it would go so smoothly. If Les Quebecois, after trying
for three decades to get their independence were to watch a
race/cultural war in the US, why would they easily leap back into a
political union akin to a larger version of Canada. I think, in retrospect,
that if I were writing this history from the beginning, I might have Quebec
not join the NAC right off, and either come to be a member by economic
necessity quite a bit later, be taken over by force, or most
likely, join the FSE - which would throw a wrench into the NAC's happy
world.
<snip the PART 2 stuff - tackle that later>
> Adrian Johnson wrote:
Yes. Very true. What's the Second US Civil War about? I kind of pictured
it as a big combination of factors - such as the growth of a Hispanic
majority in the South West, many of whom would be illegal immigrants (this
isn't meant in any way to be a slur against Hispanic Americans - just a
reflection of social trends that are already developing) - and by this
time
you'd be getting second-generation "illegals" who are hiding from the
system. Massive youth-gang problems throughout much of this region.
Drug-based crime. Reactions to this from extremists - such as the
highly
conservative "religious-right" - Christians they may claim to be -
tolerant they ain't...
Remember my "story" is set several decades from now, when these problems have
had a chance to really fester...
> honest here, with two hundred million English speaking Americans,
No - the other 80 - 100 million are the Hispanics who I mentioned later.
OK, I'm playing a bit fast and loose with the numbers, but that doesn't really
change my point, which was that the majority of the FOUNDERS of the NAC were
English speakers...
> A sticking point for me in all this is the whole issue of Quebec
I
> wonder, however, if it would go so smoothly. If Les Quebecois, after
Just ship them all to France- it seems that is where they want to be
anyway
;-)
> Adrian Johnson wrote:
> didn't give them protection for their language and culture -
Of course, I have problems with that premise as well--as loud as they
might seem to observers from the other side of a lake, the "Race War" idiots
are pretty much a fringe minority, who are not prepared nor equipped to fight
a civil war.
> honest here, with two hundred million English speaking Americans,
Except we seem to have misplaced a third of the US's population.
> On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Jared E Noble wrote:
> >economic necessity quite a bit later, be taken over by force, or most
The real French won't take them.:)
> Adrian Johnson wrote:
> Yes. Very true. What's the Second US Civil War about? I kind of
I don't buy this interpretation at all--the Religious Right are a pack
of blowhards, but as unlikely to nuke American cities or actually form an
effective military force as they are to grow wings and participate in Gay
Pride marches. And the idea of the military siding with them is a little far
fetched.
> >> honest here, with two hundred million English speaking Americans,
> >Except we seem to have misplaced a third of the US's population.
> No - the other 80 - 100 million are the Hispanics who I mentioned
The US population is about 285 million, of whom 75% are non-Hispanic
Whites. You've misplaced a lot of Americans, and that's assuming no population
growth.
> Adrian Johnson wrote:
It's a story. The whole idea of the US destroying itself in a civil war is far
fetched. So is faster than light space travel, but that's hardly the point.
Do you have any constructive suggestions?
> >> honest here, with two hundred million English speaking Americans,
25% of 285 million is 71.25 million - that leaves appx. 210 million
Americans who are "non-Hispanic Whites". I guestimated about 200
million And Hispanics are by far the fastest growing population group. Once
again, this timeline is set *decades* from now... decades of population
growth, mostly Hispanic. White populations in most of North America and
Western
Europe have negative growth, and that trend is not reversing - the
number
of "whites" in the US in thirty years will be less than now - though
this starts to get really complex 'cause there are a LOT of Hispanics who are
"whites". The Hispanic population of the US in 30 years will be significantly
greater as a percentage of the total than it is now. I suggested that they
would be up near 80 to 100 million in my revised post, and around 70 million
in my first post. And I suggested 200 million
English-speaking Americans would be joining the NAC. I don't see how
I've misplaced anybody in any significant way. OK, maybe there's 10 or 20
million extra English speaking Americans who join the NAC. My whole point
about the numbers was an explanation of why the NAC is English speaking and
"Anglian"... If you want to revise the number of English speaking
Americans upward, fine - that makes my point stronger. I don't really
see any point in continuing to debate over numbers that don't really affect
the core concept of what we were discussing, though.
Adrian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> I understand exactly where you're coming from - this point has been
And you'd have to think that the asian majorities in some areas would be
demanding language protection too. Then again, if most docs are electronic,
and translation programs are good quality, and computers can speak and be
spoken to by those not literate, then maybe ANY language would be available
relatively easily.
> So, my version of the NAC has integral protection for Spanish and
I think it should be for any language in an area where there is a significant
minority population, else I think the asian groups along the western seaboard
would be uninterested in reintegrating with the NAC.
English is the dominant force - lets be
> honest here, with two hundred million English speaking Americans,
I think you're population figures are a little out. Even assuming Canada's
status as a deep water port on both coasts is established and the Northwest
passage is opened up, I don't see us with forty
million Anglophones. We might have 30-35 Million. If our pop grows
rapidly, it will be due to immigration, many of whom will not be primarily
Anglophone. I think you could expect an influx of asians and indians and
people from the various trouble spots around the world. Of course, post ACW
I'm assuming that we'd have a bunch of Americans who fled the US settle in
Canada. But that's a minor point.
> joining up together, they're going to set it up with English as the
As I mentioned above, if you had the capability through computers
(and I think you will), I don't think this is an issue - I think
services can be delivered in any language easily. (The hard thing is the
translation software but that's what we pay our coders for!).
> Also, this conveniently works with the fact that the NAC absorbs
Well, if you delivered services in any language required, you'd just extend
that universal policy to Brazil.
> What actually happens within the NAC as these large numbers of Spanish
But they may still, due to level of development, due to political snobbery,
whatever, be viewed as new kids on the block (by the original founders) much
as I'm sure the Canucks and Yankees are still
viewed by some in the UK as Colonials. But the English Crown/Gov't
has been reasonably bright about not mucking itself too deep into nightmares
that it can't win (Northern Ireland being one exception but its in their back
yard). I'd have to think they'd try to integrate South America slowly but
fully.
So, I
> write a slightly utopian ideal, in which the founders of the NAC are
Although you may have resistance movements and separatists in these countries.
And you may have other powers formenting unrest to give the NAC grief.
> You could imagine a nightmare scenario, with the FSE backing Spanish
And plausible. Or the ESU preaching to some socialist/communist roots
in the southern hemisphere. Or the NSL appealing to the Aryan branches in the
Pacific Northwest. All of theses things probably ARE happening.
> The name "New Anglian" comes about for several reasons - the
It's also "NEW" anglian. Which means it looks forward rather than back and
embraces other views and other ethnicities.
> A sticking point for me in all this is the whole issue of Quebec
I
> wonder, however, if it would go so smoothly.
Hmm. It might be it didn't go smoothly. How do we know some areas in the NAC
still aren't protectorates forcibly held? (Just a thought). And even if it did
join, it may have been due to huge economic pressures from everyone else
joining.
If Les Quebecois, after
> trying for three decades to get their independence were to watch a
The realities of the economics. The NAC (controlling the Maritimes, the rest
of Canada, and the US) could make life really hard for Quebec if it didn't
join.
I think, in
> retrospect, that if I were writing this history from the beginning, I
Except, as someone rightly pointed out, the FSE wouldn't want Quebec.
> From a military standpoint, it is indefensible, from an Economic
/************************************************
> Good thoughts guys - is anyone collecting and collating these ideas for
I've been collecting it all, but as to a collated history of the NAC, we'll
have to see... I know Thomas is working on another version of the story
-
and that'll probably start a whole new round of discussions. Maybe after that,
when we've received all the commentary we're going to from everybody, one of
us will put it together and stick it up on a website somewhere.
(...then we'll have GZG turn around and say "nope, it didn't happen that
way...")
Still - there's lots to be thought about if we're going to end up with a
decent "New Oxford Encyclopedia - A Brief Survey of the NAC, New Albion
Press, 2183"
> Adrian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
I
> assumed that the significant Hispanic portion of the population in
Firstly, if 'race conflicts' are partially responsible for the US Collapse as
has been posited, might there be some amount of people leaving? perhaps
returning to the lands of their ethnic heritage, or at least other countries
that aren't having so many problems. While this may be temporary, it could
change the population spread at the beginning of the
NAC formation (OK - I realize this one isn't too likely, but I thought
I'd throw it out.)
Secondly, I really thing I have to agree with Tom's suggestion -
Electronic
Docs and multi-lingual computer translation are going to be ubiquitous
by the time we're talking about. If a region (say Brasil) wants to handle
internal affairs in Portuguese, that's great. On the top NAC level, though, I
think English would be the dominant language of government, and so the
representative that Brasil to the NAC Parliament, His Lordship the Earl of Sao
Paulo, Joao Ferreira de Almoco, would conduct business of state in English. I
don't think this would be too difficult to imagine. Most people in goverment
are well educated (scruples are a separate issue) and
more and more 'well educated' means multi-lingual.
So NAC level stuff is conducted in english, available in basically any
language you want. Regional is conducted in the Dominant language of the
Region (Portuguese for Brasil, Spanish for Argentina, Mexico, Chile,
etc.)
Local and community can change as well.
> So, my version of the NAC has integral protection for Spanish and
Yes. See below.
> Also, this conveniently works with the fact that the NAC absorbs
Well, if you delivered services in any language required, you'd just extend
that universal policy to Brazil.
Yep - with the understanding that their representative to Parliament
will beconducting business in English.
> You could imagine a nightmare scenario, with the FSE backing Spanish
Good thoughts guys - is anyone collecting and collating these ideas for
a new history of the NAC?
Jared spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Firstly, if 'race conflicts' are partially responsible for the US
perhaps
> returning to the lands of their ethnic heritage, or at least other
We're talking lots of people. They might move to Canada, but overseas? I think
that part of the world was pretty exciting too.....
> Secondly, I really thing I have to agree with Tom's suggestion -
Most
> people in goverment are well educated (scruples are a separate issue)
and
> more and more 'well educated' means multi-lingual.
And we may have small vocoders that can translate. You'd be effectively
polylingual by having one of these. Maybe its a UN tech
development - the multilator....(not mutilator, although it may have
been named that in early versions due to its slaughtering of the spoken word).
How a parliament of all the different nations may
interact - all members wear an earbug. Each wears a throat mike. The
throat mike takes their native language, encodes it into a 'universal
language' (not necessarily understood by anything other than computers), and
it is broadcast in an appropriate language to each
other member of parliament simultaneously. Sort of a high-tech
version of today. Multilators could be portable, but used in that format
they'd pick up stuff at the throat mike and translate it into a language
selected by the wearer which would then be spoken through a small speaker.
Of course, as now, an effective multi-lingual speaker would have an
asset in moving up in the gov't. But the huge # of languages out there would
make it standard to use multilators.
> Well, if you delivered services in any language required, you'd just
This isn't even necessary anymore. It could be done in the HoL but not in
parliament. The HoL wouldn't do it because it had to enforce English, but
because it was Tradition. The parliament, being more functionally oriented and
less held to Tradition, would implement
full multi-lingualism.
> Good thoughts guys - is anyone collecting and collating these ideas
I'm taking what Adrian wrote, some comments made, and (as Adrian said) coming
up with a alternative version of some of the events. Once that comes out
(probably end of the weekend), we'll try to put the result with feedback all
together into something we can call the "Unofficial (unless Jon T says so) NAC
history".
We're kind of acting like the History of the Imperium Working Group did for
the Traveller universe.
And I'm looking forward to posting the resulting NAC history to my web page:)
/************************************************
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
goes without saying :-)
> > - Electronic
potentially based around the Universal Network Language technology
currently being developed by - wait for it - the United nations
University:
http://unl.ias.unu.edu/
once more, life imitates GZG-L ...
> The
i can only assume mr barclay is aware of the UNL project. otherwise, this is
just too scary for words (those bloody orbital mind control lasers
again!).
Tom
Thomas spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
ROFL!
> potentially based around the Universal Network Language technology
Wow.
> i can only assume mr barclay is aware of the UNL project. otherwise,
Must admit I had nary a clue that this was going on. Damn, the Gnomes of
Zurich have done it to me again! (It's nice that my thinking apparently
parallels that of the real world closely as that was what I was trying to
achieve).
Tom.
/************************************************