[FT] Savasku Pods

What's the approved method if any for defending against Savasku pods? It seems
like extra damage control parties would be useful, but they can be eliminated
on threshhold checks, so they may not be around when you need them.

In fact what are the general tactics used by those on the list?

How often are the Savasku played? What's their success rate?

Thanks.

> David Griffin wrote:

Don't get close to them.:)

> How often are the Savasku played? What's their

Depends where you play. Some people don't like playing against them at all and
won't. I've just finished a fleet and want to use it quite regularly.
Aparently they win a lot. But most of what I'm hearing is huge amount of
cheese.

G'day,

> What's the approved method if any for defending

Keeping them far enough away it takes a good shot to hit you would be the best
bet.

> How often are the Savasku played?

They're not played here as often as other fleets (mainly because we often play
late in an evening and my brain power is at a minimum at that point

and because they're a bit tough for Lachy (7yrs) to just grab and run with). I
haven't kept a hard record, but I'd say they probably lose as often as others,
but you don't see as many "smashed to death" results as I tend to chicken out
faster with these guys (as when they go down they really go down fast) than
with more standard fleets where you're not juggling power allocation. Note
though that we don't use superships etc, as we only have a single fleetpack of
SV so there's no room for some of the

issues others have noted.

Cheers

Beth

Stay out of the forward arcs. If you're talking about leech pods, there's not
much you can do once you're hit. Remember that pod launchers are crap versions
of Ptorps, and treat them as such.

I've really only used them in webgames, but the main thing is to keep the
speed up. It is possible to swamp them with fighters, but you need to accept
the casualties from AF pods. Don't allow custom builds for SV (fleet book
only), as you'll get butchered most times.

There are some un-official changes to SV (which you may or may not have
seen floating around on the list), most people use at least some of the below.
1. Change stingers to 9" range bands. 2. Pod launchers are powered by Repair
pool. 3. Spicules are powered by Defence pool.

This makes power decisions more critical, as you can't recover from mistakes
as easily, and they lose the heavy range advantage.

Neath Southern Skies -http://home.pacific.net.au/~southernskies/
[Firestorm] Battletech PBeM GM
[Dawn Patrol] World Cup 2001 - "Australia II"

> -----Original Message-----

I have played against then extensively. Some of my
thoughts.....

The idea behind the Sa'vasku is really neat. The technology is very different
from the 'normal' ships. They add a great deal of spice to the game because of
these different technologies.

Here are some suggestions:

DO NOT ALLOW SUPER SHIPS IN ANY WAY!!!! Custom building Sa'Vasku ships allows
for abuses of the power structure that you won't believe. If you allow
customized ships, especially BIG customized ships, you are opening yourself up
to bigtime problems.

If you play the 'canned' ships out of FB2, they are very well balanced with
all the other races, with the
same win/loss ratios.

Just my $.02 worth

> --- David Griffin <carbon_dragon@yahoo.com> wrote:

[quoted original message omitted]

> on 5/5/01 4:25, Bif Smith at bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk wrote:

> Of course, there is also the point of playing equal points fleet, not

One problem with balancing SV ships is toning done some of the items that can
be unbalanced with self designed ships but at the same time not dramatically
increasing the brittle nature that I've found SV ships to have when taking
damage. The toning down of the stinger range bands to 9mu goes a good distance
to helping this. As does the other suggestions of having spicules energy come
from the D pool and pod energy coming from the R pool for the reasons
mentioned I believe in an earlier email.

One of the problems with balancing new systems is that new systems and styles
of ships often require different tactics, usually vastly different ones as is
the case with SV ships. That's not to say that tactics can
overcome some of the min-max designs we've recently heard of or the ones
I've played with and against for testing and tryout. Some different, but
potentially unbalancing factors were talked about when SMs were introduced
with SB1, however as people had a chance to play more with them and develop
new tactics it was found that they weren't as devastating as was first
thought.

One key element I've found is SV ships tend to be the master of anyone (or
possibly two) elements of the battlefield during anyone turn and they can
change which item they excel at from turn to turn. An example is many of
their ships can maneuver and/or change speed greater than any other ship
in the game without have to be specially designed to do so if they're willing
to put a majority of their energy into movement. The same goes for beam
weapons in that they can out range anyone (with medium to large ships) if
they're willing to commit a lot of energy to it. To this end it's important to
not allow the SV ships the ability to be this specialized every turn.

To this end it's usually difficult for SV ships to have ALL the same
capacities that other ships enjoy every turn. For instance, raising level two
shields, having an equal factor of beams ready, having all the
torp/heavy weapons available, and being able to maneuver.

I'm not saying that tactics can balance out all the issues people (including
myself) are finding dealing with SV ships (especially custom designs).
However, new tactics have to be investigated before too many changes are
implemented lest the new systems/race be crippled accidentally by not
knowing that there are effective counter measures.

With that said I've found that the biggest head-ache is that SV beams
can out distance opposing weaponry fairly easily. Add to this that it's
possible to out range many opponents and still keep the edge on speed and
maneuvering and there's a potential game killer (as well as long and boring
tactic that can make the game less than enjoyable for at least one of the
players).

Okay, I've been too long winded obviously. <BG> I'm preparing to receive
incoming...

I started this thread because I had some bad experiences with pods from custom
designed ships. As a player who uses custom designed (though generalized)
human ships, it's hard to demand of the Savasku player that he not use any
custom designs. Therefore, I was trying to see if there were any established
tactics that really changed the balance of power. I've just refused to play
Savasku recently because the customized ships with their huge numbers of pod
launchers, or heavy
long range beams, or huge numbers of non-morale
dependent fighters made the game not fun.

It sounds from what I've heard that the book ships aren't near as bad, though
I'd still wonder if the larger ones aren't a little too cheap for their point
value.

Frankly, if there was an official (GZG) revised point system that kept custom
designs from getting out of control, it would go a long way toward my
willingness to fight them again.

I wish Mr.Tuffley would comment on this topic, especially as to whether a
revised custom design point schedule is likely to be forthcoming in future
products.

G'day David,

> Therefore, I was trying to see if there

Well we've thrown out a few suggestions so far, but its just harder to say for
SV than humans that X is a sure in tactic because of the flexible nature of
the SV. There's a number of things which work, but you might have to try a few
of them. Apart from the specific examples given earlier to
counter the "mega-ship" problem I'd suggest you try some of the
following more general tactics (by the way I play vector so don't know how
well these hold for cinematic):

1. Don't close to slowly, I know the SV can zip about, but if they're moving
they're not shooting as much so don't give them an opportunity to

just sit in place and react. 2. Use combined arms against them, with the
suggested changes to
pods/spicules this can really make them sweat over whether they've
guessed their allocation right. Combined arms can also see them diverting more
energy to their equivalent of shields so once again less punch back. 3. Really
concentrate your fire power, SV ships are brittle compared to human ships so
make them lose a power generator or two and they'll start to feel the pinch
bad. 4. Use fighters and missiles against them, in fact if possible fool them
in to big fighter battles. I know they don't worry about morale etc, but it

way weakens the ships that launched them... any ship that has launched fighter
groups should be a fire target as they'll usually pop very quickly and won't
have the biomass to try and effect repairs. People who custom design may have
caught on to beefing up biomass to compensate for loses due to launches, but
so far the temptation to match the human force has almost always overwhelmed
the caution of ship structural integrity (I say this as both someone who plays
with and against SV...it can be hard holding back on those drones).
  5. If you allow fighters/drones to start launched make sure they cross

off "used biomass" on the mother vessels don't let them sneak in extra biomass
that way, or you could just restrict them to having to grow and launch in
game, that means humans will have an edge in this area as they

can launch all at once but the SV can't. Something else which makes the SV
player have to think.

I haven't had the chance to game this last month, so I'm a little rusty on
some things, but this should be a good start.

> I've just refused to play

Have you had a chance since the suggested changes were mentioned or since
the counter-tactics were brought up? Are these "normal" sized ships by
the
way or "mega-ships"? (I have a feeling I'm getting to people mixed up
here sorry).

> It sounds from what I've heard that the book ships

We haven't found them to be over the top, if anything sometimes they don't
feel strong enough when you're "carrier" crumbles on you;)

Cheers

Beth

> I started this thread because I had some bad

I try to avoid "official" pronouncements on this sort of thing until
they've worked themselves out for a while....a knee-jerk reaction to
"quick fix" an apparent problem can often cause more problems in its turn, and
as Kevin commented about the SMs it sometimes turns out that once everyone
gets used to them then a lot of the perceived problems go away
anyhow....
On the S'V there IS attention needed to this particular aspect, that of
overpowered custom designs, and we'll address that "officially" when we do FB3
(yes, it will be coming, just DON'T ask when.... <grin>); in the meantime,
keep trying out the suggestions that have been made already (stinger range
reduction and moving some systems to different energy pools); when and if
everyone agrees that they do the trick, we may make them "official" (hey,
there's that word again...). You mention that you use custom human designs
that are "generalised", and
presumably in the spirit of the FB1 designs - in that case I don't see
you'd be unreasonable in asking your S'V player to keep his custom designs
"generalised" too, and in the spirit of the FB2 designs, rather than using
munchkinised ones.

Jon, I don't think you realize how much this one email is gonna make my life
easier.

I have been battling Sa'Vasku customized mega-ships
for quite a while, to no avail. I have tried every tactic I can think of, and
every tactic that everyone here has suggested.

Heh heh heh see, if we decide to play a 2000pt battle, my buddy will build one
giant 2000pt Sa'Vasku ship. He puts a bit of hull, a bit of armor, some
anti-fighter and anti-missle defense.....then he adds
one or two beam weapons and everything else goes into power.....no screens,
nothing.....he doesn't need them. He pumps up the beams with the excessive
power that he has, and procedes to blow my ships out of the sky one by one
before I can even get into range. Usually what happens is that my ships get
blow to peices before I even get a shot. Fighters work better, but with a
2000pt ship.....fighter defenses are not a high percentage cost. Who needs
screens if I can't even get in range to hit him?? Heh heh heh I finally just
told him...no more custom Sa'Vasku (but them I had to agree to no more custom
humans)....the Sa'Vasku designs out of the book are quite balanced, just
customizing allows abuse.

My point is, just knowing that 'The Man' thinks there are some adjustments
needed will go along way to showing my buddy that there is a balance issue,
and hopefully convince him to accept some limits during the ship designs.

Thanks!!!! My life is better already!!!

> --- Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:

> -----Original Message-----

Just out of curiosity, have you tried cloaked ships? You'll have to play a
guessing game as to where he will end up, but you might be able to close with
him that way.

Just a thought. Don't have any idea how feasible it would be.

That would be a great idea!!!! (too bad the cloaking field is not 'official').
We have been toying with adding some of the new systems that we discuss
here.....I've almost got them convinced to playtest the holofield and heavy
needle beam. If they agree, maybe I'll try it with a cloak, that might
actually
work!!!

> --- "Hudak, Michael" <mihudak@state.pa.us> wrote:

Have you tried 'switching sides'? He playing your fleet, you playing his? The
experience is usually a good indicator when a rule or strategy has been
stretched in to the land of "il belle fromage".

Jon's obviously tried to keep the concept of 'official' pretty nebulous. What
works, works.

The_Beast

-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon

One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler

Why don't you play a random contact range, say 1 d10 times 10 mu's; then take
a swarm of cruisers. Every tenth game should put you in his face from turn 1.

A better fix would be a limit on the amount of mass that can be used for power
generators. I would suggest a limit of 30% of mass. This is a good limit
because it allows all existing FB2 Sa'Vasku designs to be legal. The highest
ratio of FB2 Sa'Vasku is the Sa'Kess'Tha scoutship with a 27.3%. Sa'Vasku
bases might be allowed an extra 10% or so.

One way to integrate this into one short quick rule would be to limit the
Sa'Vasku to no more then 40% of mass for Power Generators and Main Drive Node.

[quoted original message omitted]

> on 5/9/01 18:10, Bif Smith at bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk wrote:

> Thats why I suggested increasing the cost of the power generators from

Respectfully, wouldn't changing the cost of the power generators possibly
through the ships in FB2 out of balance with the other published ships then.
Granted currently the SV can use a single Stinger node to channel any
available power, an advantage to be sure. An artificial mass limit on
generators can hopefully be avoided, but I see it as a better way to go for
the moment.

Let's compare costs a little. I'll use 3 class 2 beams and the equivalent
amount of dice generated by a single stinger node. If I make a mistake or
three I'm sure someone will point it out.  ;-)

Human side: 3x Beam 2 6 mass cost including Basic Hull 24 cost Mass needed
indirectly for 4 MD & FTL 1.8 mass cost including Basic Hull 5.4 cost

Total cost (not including shielding or other percentage systems) 29.4

SV side: Stinger 2 mass cost including Basic Hull 8 cost PG needed to
duplicate 3x Beam 2 6 mass cost including Basic Hull 18 cost Mass needed
indirectly for MD & FTL 1.6 mass cost including Basic Hull 4.8 cost

Total cost (not including shielding or other percentage systems) 30.8 *** this
doesn't take into account the additional energy needed for movement

If the cost of the generators is changed to 4 points per mass the total cost
of the SV stinger equivalent to 3x Beam 2's becomes 42.8, an increase of over
40%.

Overall it might balance out super ships that have been optimized but it
appears from a quick glance and limited analysis that it could throw FB2 SV
designs out of balance a bit in some cases.

All in all I believe part of the problem with monstrous SV ships is similar to
that of designing any monstrous sized ship for any race. Specifically the
ability to fire all your offensive power near or at the beginning of the fire
phase (assuming sequential fire), limit the loss of fire power due to smaller
threshold lines, having your defenses cover all of your assets at
once, etc...   Gigantic ships tend to be more efficient for the same
point cost I believe regardless of the race and technology, however the SV
range advantage makes this even more problematic. Just my conclusions though.

> >

I suspect that while your method will make Sa'Vasku supper ship more balanced,
it will also make the existing FB2 Sa'Vasku less balanced (too expensive). I
would rather place a limit on the mass available to power generators, then
increase their cost. This in no more artificial then "Pulse Torpedoes can have
at most three arcs" or, "Pod Launchers have only one arc", etc.

> --- Kevin Walker <sage@bresnanlink.net> wrote:
...
> Overall it might balance out super ships that have

If you try these rules, and the Savasku lose a lot no matter who is playing
them (in order to discount the possibility that the better or worse player
tactically is playing them), then you might be able to draw that conclusion. I
don't think that will happen, but I admit I'm not an authority.

> All in all I believe part of the problem with

We've seen large ships in our game designed with human technology and they
don't seem to be unbalancing in the way that large custom Savasku are.

Maybe what we need is a FT Tactics manual?

> on 5/10/01 8:18, David Griffin at carbon_dragon@yahoo.com wrote:

> If you try these rules, and the Savasku lose a lot

Another way of testing these is setting up canned scenarios and test runs with
several varied tactical approaches. Otherwise an individual players luckiness
factor with initiative and weapons fire can also make a big difference.
Another bonus to the canned and repeated scenario play is that
some/all of the runs can be done solo as to permit the interjection of
averages (or abnormalities if warranted) to the run to witness the results.

If I can get my game table uncovered from the mess that remains part of my
basement I'll have some quick small runs at some testing (having several
inches of water a month ago across the entire floor prompted much late night
lifting of items off the floor - not to mention that some of the pumps
have run nearly constantly for the past two months to keep the water level
below that of the basement floor except for the one occasion).

> All in all I believe part of the problem with

True. My main point though is that large custom ships of any fleet can be a
little unbalancing in many situations when going against smaller, more
numerous and balanced designs. As the large custom SV ships issues are
addressed I feel it's best if we can separate the factors that make large
custom SV ships more unbalanced from those that can make all large custom
ships a little more powerful. Allowing us to address those factors only unique
to the SV, possibly permitting us to not downgrade regular SV ships that are
reasonably balanced at the moment. The Power Generator issue is probably one
of these "separate" factors. However, my experience and
play-testing indicates that adjusting the overall cost of them across
the board doesn't balance cost properly over the entire size spectrum of SV
ships.

> Maybe what we need is a FT Tactics manual?

A good and interesting idea. There are some very interesting tactics that
don't apply to other game systems which aren't evident at least in the
beginning to many players as I'm sure many, including myself, can attest to.

> --- Kevin Walker <sage@bresnanlink.net> wrote:

> I would rather place a limit on the mass available to power

Perhaps not a MASS limit but a% of MASS limit.

This sounds as if it may be worth a try. The trick is to make it work for the
small SV ships as well as for the large SV ships.

How about changing the way you allocate power? You allocate power from a
generator to a pool (rather than points to a pool). And set 2 as the maximum
number of generators that can be linked to any of the 4 pools. This also means
that as the SV loose power generators, they may not allocate to all 4 pools
(they have to decide which pools to allocate
power to). And effectivly limits a SV construct to using 1/2 its power
for weapons, defense, movement or repair.

---
Brian Bell bbell1@insight.rr.com
http://www.ftsr.org/
---

[quoted original message omitted]

Clarification: It should read "allocate power generator(s) to a pool (rather
than points to a pool)."

[quoted original message omitted]

G'day,

> We've seen large ships in our game designed with

Just out of interest have the human ships involved ever sported one of those
class 6 or larger beams that are possible if you take the mass progression
thing on and up? I haven't had a chance to sit and down and see whether the
extra mass involved compensates more than the extra power generator mass does
in the SV, but it was just a thought. I'll try and have a look over the
weekend.

Beth

G'day,

> This sounds as if it may be worth a try. The trick is to

Personally I don't like this as I think its's really going to cane the small
SV's butt. I can't remember the size of the power pools off the top of my
head, but this will definitely restrict the small SV to being very

short ranged and may even stop scout sized SV firing at all.

Beth

I have played against the massive Beam weapons. My buddy took a monolith that
had class 5's....and once he took one with class 6's. We found that the mass
cost progression effectively balances them.   He was
able to hit me at longer ranges then I could hit him, but the huge mass meant
he didn't have that many....he would hurt me, but not so much as I was dead
before I entered into range for my weapons. The Sa'Vasku beams however DON'T
pay any extra cost or mass for the extra range and extra damage. Also, making
a human monolith ship have any manueverability is extremely expensive, so
usually you can counter the giant ships with good manuevering from small
ships......The Sa'Vasku don't have that problem either. This is why I would
agree that massive human ships aren't quite as overpowered as Sa'Vasku.

> --- Beth Fulton <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au> wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> [quoted text omitted]

I've done ships with class 5's, but the cost for the big beams is so
expensive, it seems to balance. You get a few shots at the enemy's expense,
but it's hard to do it before they get into range with their cheaper but more
numerous weapons.

> --- Beth Fulton <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au> wrote: