Richard Hofrichter, where are you?
I've just had a look at the Indonesian ships in the ship registry. I haven't
seen them before. Yet they make perfect opponents for the OU designs I made,
some of which have made it to the ship registry, the majority haven't. Just
similar enough in design philosophy (mainly in weaponry)
that they could well have "co-evolved". Just different enough
to have distinct flavours.
I think there's quite enough now for FB3. St Jon the Divine is
obviously over-worked, and what with Bugs Don't Surf etc could
do with all the acting-unpaid-supernumary help he could get.
So....
Here's an immodest proposal: That we get the ball rolling re a possible FB3
(assuming Jon Tuffley esq doesn't object). I say
"possible" because he's under no obligation to use any of it -
but if there were great hunks of text in near-camera-ready form,
SSDs worked out, checked, play-balanced etc we could save
him some time. Payment (if you're lucky!) would be at most 1 copy of the final
product.
Difficulties: a) Miniature availability. I'd like to include some ships that
haven't been designed yet. b) Line Artwork. The excellent line art in FB1, FB2
should be continued, but only Jon T can organise this.
OK, so what *should* be in FB3?
a) Errata to date.
(Warning! Controversy!) b) Balancing of KV, Phalons, SuVasku. In Cinematic
movement,
the KV are over-costed by as much as 10%. Some people here
think 15%, and this is the figure used by the estimable Brendan Pratt at
Cancon. (He's won it 2 years running, the best I've managed is 3rd so he knows
what he's on about).
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~cgs/Blurbs2001.html#FULL%20THRUST
Sa'Vasku range bands altered to 8" bands.
Point defences treat Plasma Bolts as normal targets with no re-rolls
(1-3=
0pts 4-5= 1pts 6= 2pts).
Close range set pulsers only yield 4d6. Kra'Vak point costs are reduced by
15%.
The highly esteemed OO has produced many good arguments that the Pulser at
Close Range should be 6 dice not 4. All I can say is that if you find this to
be the case, use Medium or Long instead. In our playtesting, Cinematic on
table-tennis tables, terrain so no floating - which I think is a very
large
proportion of the total FT audience - then close range pulsars are de
rigeur at 6dice.
c) Fleets. We should at least have all the ships that GZG currently make.
Anything else? IC forex?
d) Rules: What rules do we need: MT missiles, for sure. Anything else?
From - Wed Jan 03 11:05:58 2001
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From: Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [SG2] Questions
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 20:45:39 -0500
Organization: Haphazard at best.
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On Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:49:18 -0500, "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)"
> <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil> wrote:
> [Bri] Hmmm. The rules seem to contradict themselves.
Yes, they do.
> A non-penetrating
The rule on page 18 states that a vehicle will take a Suppression marker
in...
uh... cases where the vehicle would take suppression. This is implied to mean
that a minor hit, or a non-penetrating major hit, will apply a
suppression marker.
So, a non-penetrating hit MUST place a suppression marker. That's a
given.
The rule on page 39 states that a non-penetrating hit causes a
Confidence Test, failure of which means the vehicle occupants MUST leave the
vehicle.
It is possible to have a Suppression on a vehicle while not hitting it. It is
impossible to have a non-penetrating hit without also having a
Suppression. The rule requires you to leave the vehicle when you test
Confidence after a
non-penetrating hit. So, I interpret the forced bailing of a hit vehicle
to override the "can't leave the vehicle if suppressed" rule. I interpret that
as "can't voluntarily leave the vehicle if suppressed".
> I would say that, no the crew would not leave the vehicle until the
> could not perform combat actions until they succeeded in the confidence
> check or remove the suppression marker.
That actually goes against the rule that says vehicle occupants are not
stopped from performing actions in a suppressed vehicle. It also means, in a
big game, you'll have to have some way of indicating vehicles that were
suppressed from vehicles that were suppressed and failed a
non-penetrating hit
confidence test.
In the interest of simplicity, the interpretation that the failed Confidence
Test forces a bail out regardless of suppression is the easiest to use.
> [Bri] Yes, if a sniper chooses to use normal movement instead of
I've seen it happen in cases where a sniper decides to become part of a squad.
I've also seen it happen in scenarios where a sniper had to escape from a
board or moved to occupy a terrain feature for victory conditions.
Allan Goodall awg@sympatico.ca
Goodall's Grotto: http://www.vex.net/~agoodall
"Surprisingly, when you throw two naked women with sex toys into a living room
full of drunken men, things
always go bad." - Kyle Baker, "You Are Here"
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To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <200012291552.eBTFqap56164@soda.csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ft} FBII Ship Bits
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 20:58:03 -0500
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I've got Kra'Vak, but no Phalon or Sa'Vasku at my geocities site.
www.geocities.com/rwhofrichter/
Sorry.
Rob
[quoted original message omitted]
> Alan Brain wrote:
> Richard Hofrichter, where are you?
Is that Robert Hofrichter's evil twin? <g>
> OK, so what *should* be in FB3?
Problem here. Brendan Pratt doesn't design any custom ships (unless he's begun
doing so in the last half year), so he can simply reduce the points costs of
the published ships by 15%. The rest of us can't do
that - we have to reduce the cost of some specific Kra'Vak components
instead. But which ones, and by how much?
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~cgs/Blurbs2001.html#FULL%20TH>RUST
8" or 9", yes.
> Point defences treat Plasma Bolts as normal targets with no re-rolls
Can live with that.
> Close range set pulsers only yield 4d6.
We've fought a dozen battles on fixed 4'x8' tables pitting FB1 fleets
against "all-C" Phalon forces now, and the Phalons have *still* lost
every one of them... Brendan never described what tactics the Phalons use to
keep the range close (nor what tactics their opponents have tried to prevent
them from closing), so I still don't know what we're
doing wrong locally :-(
> c) Fleets. We should at least have all the ships that GZG currently
Max 4 fleets in a fleetbook; may be less if there are many new rules. GZG
currently has 4 fleets without any published stats: UNSC, IF, OU and ORC.
> d) Rules: What rules do we need: MT missiles, for sure. Anything
Sensors and boarding combat, and cleared-up fighter rules (currently
they're spread out over all five books...).
Regards,
Oerjan Ohlson oerjan.ohlson@telia.com
"Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it, depends on what you put into
it."
- Hen3ry
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From: John Crimmins <johncrim@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: [Ft} FBII Ship Bits
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Thanks for the responses, everyone. SInce I had a snow day today, I got to ake
use of them sooner than I expected.
Right now, my quandry is what to do with my GW Tyrannid fleet. 50+
ships, most of them DH size and smaller. Make 'em Sa'Vasku, and treat the
small SV fleet that I already own as Phalons? Or vice versa? I have to play
around with the fleets and see what suggests itself.
John X Crimmins johncrim@voicenet.com "...is one of the secret masters of the
world: a librarian. They control information. Don't ever piss one off."
--Spider Robinson, The Callahan Touch.
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Subject: Re: RE-ship names
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> >Oddly enough, if you read it again you'll see it says
Not as many as there used to be. <G>
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> On Sat, 30 December 2000, "Oerjan Ohlson" wrote:
> >http://members.optusnet.com.au/~cgs/Blurbs2001.html#FULL%20TH>RUST
(This is for the list in general, not specifically Oerjan who has seen the
disc ussions.)
Beth has been doing testing with 9" range bands.
Most things in FT are measured in multiples of 3. 6-sided dice, 12"
range bands, 3" radius of effect for SMLs in vector movement, etc. As a memory
aid, 9" ran ge bands are divisible by 3 and half way between 12" and 6".
While it's still early, if I was going to bet on what will become "official",
I 'd put my money on 9" range bands.
> Sensors and boarding combat, and cleared-up fighter rules (currently
Interface craft and a tie-in with SG2 and DS2.
I'd like to see a generic tactics section in the book. Something very much
like we've had posted here from time to time.
Allan Goodall - agoodall@canada.com
__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com
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From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <200012302351.AAA17632@d1o902.telia.com>
Subject: NSL vs KV, was Re: [Ft} OU & IC & FB3
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> >the KV are over-costed by as much as 10%.
Apropos which, the junior admiral of my household requests the advice of the
List on what NSL ships and tactics to use to deal with 2000 points of KV.
He took 2 modified Von Teg's and 2 Maria von B's against 4 Ko'Vol and a
Si'Tek. It turns out that a K5 hit, with the usual 10 damage, does a threshold
per hit on a Maria. He was not as happy about this discovery as I was...
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http://www.desktopstarships.com
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From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: NSL vs KV, was Re: [Ft} OU & IC & FB3
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> Laserlight wrote:
> the KV are over-costed by as much as 10%.
Cinematic or Vector?
> He took 2 modified Von Teg's and 2 Maria von B's against 4 Ko'Vol >and
This is one of the two reasons why the KV cost more than human ships
<g>
Regards,
Oerjan Ohlson oerjan.ohlson@telia.com
"Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it, depends on what you put into
it."
- Hen3ry
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From: "Jeremy Sadler" <webmaster@stargrunt.com>
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Subject: NYE
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 01:30:50 +1100
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Greetings all,
> From me Down Under, who are now in 2001, Happy New Year to all you
Regards, Jeremy (Waiting for the monolith to arrive...)
From - Wed Jan 03 11:06:12 2001
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Subject: [OT] Starguard Web Game soon
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Well, there is life for all the Starguard grognards (Starguard is the SF
skirmish set of rules first edition in 1974, and currently on Edition 5, which
early on introduced a lot of people on the west coast to SF skirmish wargames
using miniatures. Not the earliest but a survivor from
those neo-lithic days) since there is another web game starting soon.
And like most Starguard games who the 'enemy' is may not be too sure until the
shooting starts. You know who is supposed to be the enemy usually but this
time the Fabian mercs (East European Comrades in Space) are guarding an
unpopular (Bopaul) facility for 'research' on an planet
settled by ethnic/cultural descendants of South Asia. And the research
leader is the center of some pretty murky rumors...
If you want reports of how the game progesses please e-mail me and I
will forward them to you. I won't post them on the list since it *is* OT.
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <200012310936.KAA14836@d1o960.telia.com>
Subject: Re: NSL vs KV, was Re: [Ft} OU & IC & FB3
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> >Apropos which, the junior admiral of my household requests the
Cinematic. In Vector I'd just say "stay in a pack and keep turning to face
them."
Come to think of it, in Cinematic I'd say about the same--find a piece
of space you like, reduce speed to zero and rotate as needed.
From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
> Problem here. Brendan Pratt doesn't design any custom ships (unless
I think the KV are balanced in vector. So a straight 10-15% discount
across the board wouldn't be too bad when playing Cinematic.
> >http://members.optusnet.com.au/~cgs/Blurbs2001.html#FULL%20TH>RUST
Much of a muchness, I could live with either, the difference is lost in the
noise.
> >Point defences treat Plasma Bolts as normal targets with no re-rolls
Me too - don't see why it's needed, but no reason why not.
> >Close range set pulsers only yield 4d6.
> We've fought a dozen battles on fixed 4'x8' tables pitting FB1 fleets
Or what *we're* doing wrong locally. maybe we're missing something obvious
that your group has seen.
Maybe a PBEM game would be in order here? No need for actual combat, just
manouvering.
> >c) Fleets. We should at least have all the ships that GZG currently
Depends on the size of the fleet. For example, IF and UNSC are both large
ranges. But OU has a small range - FF, DD, CL, CA, CVL, that's it.
If my "modular designs" are adopted, this could have maybe another
page consisting of the standard modules, but it's still only 3-4 pages.
> GZG currently has 4 fleets without any published stats: UNSC, IF, OU
ORC - Out Rim Coalition. (as opposed to Orcish Revolutionary..)
But only the UNSC fleet is as big as the Big 4's. I think there's room enough
for another fleet, maybe 2. But only if there are some minis forthcoming,
otherwise there's no point. Leave them for FB4.
> >d) Rules: What rules do we need: MT missiles, for sure. Anything
> Sensors
Yes. I like simple. ECM and ECCM should be here too.
> and boarding combat
Yes - maybe use the SuVasku Leech mechanics,
> and cleared-up fighter rules (currently
Yes. No need for any changes, just a consolidation.
Things we can leave till FT3?
Campaigns Ground Interface Terrain Debris Striking colours (suggest a check
every turn at last hull box and get
damaged -
score must equal the number of hull boxes left, but a 6 always fails) Painting
guide Sources of Minis.
OK, next question:
Assuming we have FB3 consisting of USNC IC OU FSC
Who's gonna do what? Rather than decide by having a vote, asking the estimable
Jon etc, I suggest that anyone who wants to can have a crack. The rules are as
follows:
a) You must write some PHB (Pseudo-Historical as opposed to
Pseudo-Scientific) about
the navy in question, much as in FB1. b) You must write the stats of ALL of
the ships in the navy you choose, all those specified in
http://www.gtns.net/gzg/contents.html. Not just stats, but some PHB
similar to FB1. Use a Spreadsheet or automated tool for generation, to avoid
errors.
> Alan Brain wrote:
> Problem here. Brendan Pratt doesn't design any custom ships >>(unless
You seem to miss the point. Brendan can implement a straight-off 10-15%
discount *because he does not use custom-designed ships*. According to
his own words he uses the published FBx ships exclusively. In particular, he
doesn't mix KV tech with tech from other races.
However, some players do mix "alien" technologies. Look at Paul
Radford's UNSC designs, for example - humans with a smattering of
K-guns. I haven't published my "Renegade Legion: Leviathan" conversions
anywhere, but they are even worse: human screens and missiles combined
with Phalon layered armour and pulsers, and Kra'Vak K-guns (for the
crowbars). I've seen some designs (sorry, don't remember where) with
Advanced Drives on otherwise human-tech ships; I've toyed with
re-working my "Eldar-ish" fleet along these lines as well, but haven't
had time to do it yet.
So, to re-phrase my question: If you use a straight cost reduction for
"Kra'Vak" ships, how exactly do you define "Kra'Vak" for the purpose of giving
this discount?
Would any of the mixed-tech ships mentioned above count as "Kra'Vak"?
How much "non-KV" tech may a ship have in order to count as "Kra'Vak"
and get the discount? Answering "None" means that you explicitly penalise
players for not adhering strictly to the canon GZG background
- which, given its strong GW marketting flavour, is something I'd
really prefer to avoid.
Another problem with a flat 10-15% rebate for KV ships is that a KV
"soap-bubble" carrier with no K-guns and minimal engines would cost
only about 90% as much (not counting the cost of the fighters themselves) as a
human carrier with the same hull and fighter force, but which replaces the KV
ship's scatterguns and advanced drives with less effective PDS and normal
drives. In this case there's no question
of the KV ship getting the rebate - it uses KV tech systems only - but
it doesn't sound as a very good idea from the game balance point of view.
> Close range set pulsers only yield 4d6.
We have a lot more training in countering custom designs, but that's about all
I can think of straight off.
> Maybe a PBEM game would be in order here? No need for actual >combat,
There's definitely a need for actual combat in such a battle. We don't
keep the range open *indefinitely*; only for *long enough* - namely,
long enough to destroy or cripple so many Phalon ships that the enemy outguns
them (usually massively) when they finally do get close. It's kinda hard to
determine how long "long enough" is unless you do the
shooting :-/
> d) Rules: What rules do we need: MT missiles, for sure. Anything
> and boarding combat
The boarding party trying to smash up the target ship instead of capturing it?
Schoon's rules, or some variation thereof, seem more appropriate to me.
> and cleared-up fighter rules (currently
Some of the currently published fighter rules contradict each other and others
(the launch rules in particular) currently don't work very well, so
*some* changes are probably not out of place :-/
> Things we can leave till FT3?
"Last hull ROW and get damaged", no?
> Painting guide
Why? Smells of GW again :-(
> Sources of Minis.
Any "Sources of Minis" list will be out of date the minute it leaves the
printers, but it's a good way to indicate that "you DON'T need to use the
official (tm) Full Thrust minitatures for playing this game"
:-/
> OK, next question:
FSC?
Regards,
> Bell, Brian K (Contractor) wrote:
> I agree. The tug/tender rules need modification.
The main problem is tugs *vs* tenders - there's essentially no reason
to build tenders (internal carrying bays) rather than tugs (tug FTL drive).
> I do think that 10% is a little low however. If you build a FTL ship
The 12-30% is... somewhat debatable :-/ More on this below:
> Here are some of Laserlight's IF ships as example:
Should be 8/30 10/36 25/20
> Hasan as-Sabah 31/107 37/125 19.3/16.8
Typo; last entry should be "17.0/12.7".
> Foch 216/805 250/909 15.7/12.9
If you use correct values, you get an average increase of 14.33% for the above
12 ships.
Your sample is a bit small though. If you include all the FB1 warships
(the 57 main entries, not every sub-variant) as well as the 8 IF ships
above, you get an average of 13.6% (with extreme values 6.7% and 20%).
Averaging over the thousand or so FB1-tech ships I currently have
archived gives 13.1%. Or at least it gave 13.1% a couple months ago; I
haven't checked since early November :-/
A 2-3% cost difference is generally too small to have a noticable
impact; the initiative rolls tend to have a bigger impact than this (at least
for battles smaller than ~5000 pts per side). If you fight to the
last ship and/or count ships that FTL from the battle as "killed", +15%
works about as well as +10% - the inaccuracy is drowned by the effects
of initiative rolls (and maneuvering, lucky/unlucky threshold rolls,
etc.).
If OTOH you score more points for killed/captured enemy ships than for
cripples which escape (cf. the "Striking colours" thread) then the
sub-light ships have a distinct disavantage: they can't withdraw into
hyperspace, so they tend to die (or surrender/be captured) more often
than FTL-capable ones. This lowers their value a bit further, pushing
the cost increase down closer to 10% than 15%.
Regards,