The following are listed in the Fleet Book as having been sold to other
powers:
NAC / NSL / FSE / ESU
SC 45 / 8 / 22 / 58
CT 15 / 9 / 16 / 15
FF 43 / 3* /35 / 17
DD 21 / (5+2) / 18 / 28
DDH 0 / 0 / 3 / 10
CL 9 / 8 / 7 / 15
CE 4 / 2 / 8 / 8
CH 6 / 6 / 5 / (14+2)
BC 6 / 2 / 10 / 6
BB 3 / 5 / 2 / 3
BDN 2 / 0 / 1 / 5
CVL 6 / 0 / 0 / 0
CV 0 / 0 / 0 / 1
Notes: the 3 NSL FF's were sold to a private purchaser. The
(5+2) NSL DD's include both Waldberg variants; the (14+2) CH
includes Gorshkovs and Voroshilevs. One of the NAC BC's is the late Kinshasa
of PAU service. And someone really did buy a Konstantin class CV.
Now the question is...who bought them?
Undetermined customers (canon only): Indonesian Commonwealth,
OU, New Israel, Sayeed Khalifate, Dutch, Free Cal-Tex, LLAR, and
Romanov Hegemony (plus anyone I've forgotten). Some or all of these may build
their own ships (including FB1 designs built
under license from the major power), and non-canon powers may
have bought some (e.g. Alarish acquired a Jerez). Suggestions as to which
suppliers sold to which clients?
I'd say the PAU buys from NAC (thus the Kinshasa) and ESU, alternating as the
political climate changes. Islamic Fed buys from FSE. On the other hand, RH
never buys from ESU; Sayeed Khalifate never buys from FSE.
--Chris DeBoe
> The following are listed in the Fleet Book as having been sold
Concur.
The OU has 2 of the FSE Battlecruisers, though with a slightly different
weapons fit as the FSE didn't supply any missile systems for them.
In addition, the OU has at least 1 NAC Capital Ship - I must look up
Brendan Robertson's page again to see exactly what it is.
Basically, I want to make sure that anyone who has a well-painted
miniature, preferably one that has a picture on the web, has "first dibs" on
unallocated ships (after Canon). Thus the "Dreamtime" painted ships of the OU.
Second priority is to people who have written up some fiction or background
material which requires a ship of a particular class to be in a particular
Navy. Thus the 2 FSE BCs of the OU.
I think this is as good a method of allocation as any. Anyone want to be
Keeper of the Keys? Any reaction from The Tuffley?
> Now the question is...who bought them?
I'd say that the question is not EXACTLY who bought what, but who generally
buys from whom.
The Players on the field:
Superpowers:
New Anglian Confederation (NAC) - Self-Design
Eurasian Solar Union (ESU) - Self-Design
United Nations (UN) - Self-Design
Major Powers:
New Swabian League (NSL) - Self-Design
Federal States Europa (FSE) - Self-Design
Minor Powers:
New Israel (NI) - Self-Design & Purchase (Assorted Suppliers)
Islamic Federation (IF) - Self-Design
League of Latin American Republics (LLAR) - Purchase (ESU & FSE)
Romanov Hegemony (RH) - Produces ESU Designs
Free Cal-Tex (FCT) - Produces NAC Designs
Oceanic Union (OU) - Self-Design & Purchase (Assorted Suppliers)
Indonesian Commonwealth (IC) - Self-Design
Scandinavian Federation (SF) - Self-Design
Saeed Khalifate (SK) - Produces IF Designs
Japan - Produces NAC Designs
Holland - Purchase (NSL, ScanFed, Swiss)
Switzerland - Self-Design
That's my take on it. Comments & changes?
> I'd say that the question is not EXACTLY who bought what, but
You know, if you're going to keep saying what I'm thinking, I'll just shut up
and let you do all the typing.
> Islamic Federation (IF) - Self-Design
> League of Latin American Republics (LLAR) - Purchase (ESU &
Of course.
> Romanov Hegemony (RH) - Produces ESU Designs
> Oceanic Union (OU) - Self-Design & Purchase (Assorted
Or sometimes "astonished suppliers". Whatever did happen to that NSL capital
ship, eh?
> Indonesian Commonwealth (IC) - Self-Design
For small ships, but buys from someone else also?
[quoted original message omitted]
> Now the question is...who bought them?
> buys from whom.
> That's my take on it. Comments & changes?
2 kopins worth incoming......
That's an awful lot of self-designs. I'd change a lot of them to
"self-design
and buy from X".
> The Players on the field:
The background I wrote for the IC indicates that the major families are
rolling in filthy lucre. I see the IC as being a major customer for just about
everybody, with various factions within the IC tending to buy from various
major powers, or at best, producing under licence. So an IC fleet would be
composed of mainly
cast-offs from everybody, but lots of them. And some of the cast-offs
would be so extensively rebuilt internally as to be new designs.
Capital ships might be a different matter. I see most nations that "roll their
own" (as well as buying) mainly concentrating on the smaller ships, size 100
and below. The Big Stuff requires major dockyards - so are beyond the
capabilities of the smaller nations. The IC might be different, buying lots of
Ibezas, Nanuchkas,
G'day Schoon,
> Minor Powers:
Yep
> Islamic Federation (IF) - Self-Design
Think they probably did some purchasing as well, either off another minor
power or the ESU/FSE I'd guess
> League of Latin American Republics (LLAR) - Purchase (ESU & FSE)
Yep
> Romanov Hegemony (RH) - Produces ESU Designs
Nope, can't see that one sorry (a) why would the ESU supply their major
philosophical enemy and (b) why would the RH buy stuff off there philosophical
enemy (not like its a recent split, they've been separate for 150 yrs haven't
they...in GZGverse time that is)... or does Taiwan buy its military hardware
off China and I'm just too thick to have noticed (which is quite possible mind
you)?
> Free Cal-Tex (FCT) - Produces NAC Designs
Yep, though I can see it playing a wider field too and maybe dabbling in a few
home made "armed merchantmen"
> Oceanic Union (OU) - Self-Design & Purchase (Assorted Suppliers)
Yep
> Indonesian Commonwealth (IC) - Self-Design
Another one where I think they'd be buying off others also - once again
most likely the ESU
> Scandinavian Federation (SF) - Self-Design
Probably
> Saeed Khalifate (SK) - Produces IF Designs
At the start (the ones they ceased when they split), but I'm guessing
they'll end up buying off other suppliers or kit-bashing their own
(maybe little more than modifying old IF designs they have to hand)... bit
like
the ESU-RH situation I'd guess (though 90 years younger).
> Japan - Produces NAC Designs
Why not a load of their own too - of all the nations I could see taking
their own path by then I'd say these guys would be at the top of the list
(especially if they end up the way all anime fans expect... fighter/mech
heavy)
> Holland - Purchase (NSL, ScanFed, Swiss)
Yep
> Switzerland - Self-Design
Maybe some purchasing.
Just some thoughts
Cheers
Beth
[quoted original message omitted]
Hi everybody,
> Sean Bayan Schoonmaker wrote:
The UNSC would probably self-produce some ships, but buy others, since
they wouldn't have that large an industrial capacity. Or, as another
possibility, some nations would pay their dues to the UN by transferring ships
to the UNSC.
This is based on the assumption that the UN of the Tuffyverse, while more
independent then the current UN, still suffers from a small budget and
resource base, especially compared to the other powers. (Everybody's
interested in a UN, but nobody wants a really strong
UN...)
Just an idea...
J.
> The Players on the field:
Concur. GW Chaos fleet in silver and gold.
Laserlight wrotes
> The following are listed in the Fleet Book as having been sold
(snip)
Nice job
> Notes: the 3 NSL FF's were sold to a private purchaser. The
I would think the NAC would not sell to the LLAR (at least no
major/up-to-date ships) because of the long-standing enmity due to the
NAC's occupation of South America. Otherwise, I think the LLAR would otherwise
buy
from all producers and be able to design/licence-build vessels up to DD
or
perhaps CL size. Industrial capacity is not sufficient to self-build all
the vessels they need, so they still buy smaller ships as well as capital
vessels. Also able to convert larger ships. Main foreign supplier would be ESU
(common enemy in the NAC) and FSE (ditto, plus cultural links to
Spain/Portugal).
I also would like to have the LLAR buy the Konstantin CV.
Any procedure to decide who got what?
Greetings Karl Heinz
> I also would like to have the LLAR buy the Konstantin CV.
Dice at dawn and who ever rolls a one.... sorry couldn't help it, I don't even
want it... now where did I put my dried frog pills...;)
Beth
> I also would like to have the LLAR buy the Konstantin CV.
Not till now. So let's make one.
All those in favour of the LLAR acquiring the "Simon Bolivar" or possibly
"Fidel Castro" or "Che Guevara", the Konstantin Class CV anyway, say AYE, the
contrary NO.
(Votes by Jon Tuffley over-ride all others)
AYE 1
NO 0
> I also would like to have the LLAR buy the Konstantin CV.
They're probably welcome to it!
I hope they got a good deal on a LARGE supply of spare parts too - the
hull is getting pretty old and turning into a maintenance nightmare and
money-pit...... I suspect she'll spend more time in spacedock than out
of
it.... ;-)
> The following are listed in the Fleet Book as having been sold
[snip]
> Basically, I want to make sure that anyone who has a well-painted
Hey, don't drag me into this..... <grin>
Sometimes I think you guys have WAAAAY to much free time on your
hands.....
;-)
Seriously, if you want to split 'em up between yourselves, then fine - I
doubt that the canon background will ever get [officially] developed in so
much detail that it'll pin down the location of every ship, and frankly I
wouldn't want it to - it would be very restrictive on players.
Just bear in mind certain things...... 1) I'm going to be steadily expanding
the mini ranges, and that means a lot of new ship designs for minor powers to
come (no, don't ask when, they'll be ready when they're ready!) 2) This may
seem like sacrilege to some people, but the numbers of sales listed in FB1
were just off the top of the head to give some "colour" to the background
bumf, and to give players who needed it the excuse to fit almost any ship into
their own fleets (I know it shouldn't normally matter, but it provides a
loophole for those people who are unfortunate enough to have to play against
the "it's not in the book, so you can't do it"
munchkins....).
> On Sun, 28 May 2000, Robert W. Hofrichter wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
complain! you think the Swiss will be be buliding ships before the Dutch?
> I'd see Holland producing its own designs before the Scandinavians.
the Dutch do build their own ships today, after all, and in my
filling-in
of their future history (http://users.ox.ac.uk/~univ0938/gzg/nl/), i've
made them fairly big-league when it comes to shipping. i've also
designed
ships for them - please can i keep them? :)
tom
> Sometimes I think you guys have WAAAAY to much free time on
Yeah, well, we have to have _something_ to do until BDS comes
out....
> I would think the NAC would not sell to the LLAR (at least no
Perhaps also NSL.
> I also would like to have the LLAR buy the Konstantin CV.
The only likely other candidate for it that I can think of is the PAU, and I'd
say LLAR is a lot more probable. Rather than appeal to only one nation's
sentiments by naming it after a
specific hero, how about call it _Libertador_?
> At 18:12 2000-05-28 -0400, you wrote:
The PAU also buys from the FSE (seen notes on the Suffren; they ordered
4).
---
Brian Bell
And also the fact that the timeline has advanced since FB1 changes the
construction figures. A couple of years means more old hulls sold
off/destroyed, new construction, new designs etc.
Neath Southern Skies -http://home.pacific.net.au/~southernskies/
[mkw] Admiral Peter Rollins; Task Force Zulu
[DitD] Captain Puppilier
> -----Original Message-----
to
> the background bumf, and to give players who needed it the excuse to
> I'd say that the question is not EXACTLY who bought what, but
> Oceanic Union (OU) - Self-Design & Purchase (Assorted
That brings up yet another source of supply: Prizes of War, and on irregular
occasions, Salvaged vessels.
So we have the following sources:
Construction to a native design Construction to a licenced design (perhaps
with mods)
Construction to an un-licenced design (perhaps with mods)
Purchase Purchase of a base hull to be refitted using local parts. Captured
(ie taken as a Prize during conflict) Salvaged (ie taken without owners
permission in a damaged condition) Stolen Leased Lent
I forget what proportion of the Royal Navy's ships of the line were actually
prizes in 1805, but it was on the order of 50%. They took more ships than they
lost from all causes.
I think the best that we can say is that, for each Canonical service, they get
"the bulk" of their forces from source X, much of the remainder from Y, a few
notable instances from Z, and the rest "miscellaneous".
Examples (which may not be true):
The OU forces are mainly locally constructed mass-produced modular BORON
(Basic Operational Refit of Navy) designs (the Eureka models)*, with the
remainder from a variety of sources, including small numbers of other local
designs.
Recently, they bought 2 Suffrens from the FSE just before relations
deteriorated, but these ships were never fitted with their missile armament.
Another notable ship is the (former) NSL SuperDreadnaught "Graf von Lueckner",
salvaged without NSL permission (and under the noses of Vultures R Us) and
currently refitting as the OUS "Jackaroo". Given the damage this ship
incurred, the refit may be
abandoned as not cost-effective.
Several UN-standard Design Cruisers and a number of smaller UN-standard
ships are in theory part of the OUDF, but are leased to the UN and usually
serve with the combined UN fleet crewed by OUDF personnel. Likewise, there are
a number
of IAS vessels (usually IAS-manufactured BORON designs) with IAS crew
that are leased by the OU to provide supply and scientific backup to IAS
installations in OU space.
There are persistent rumours that some Special Forces Landing Ships of
destroyer size exist with exotic Stealth technology, but the exact status of
these (if they exist at all) is unknown.
*The original designation, Modular Operational Refit of Navy was quickly
changed.
The IC has purchased most of its Navy from a variety of sources, however a
large number of local construction units exist, such as the ( GZG range yet to
be designed). Difficulties in construction have meant that not many of these
have so far seen service, but the number is growing.
Nearly all shipyards have always found someone in the IC to buy their wares at
inflated prices (providing the right "agents fees" were paid). Various
families' agency agreements have meant that designs from all 4 major powers
are in service, along with small numbers from the OU and Switzerland, a larger
number from the IF, and others.
The IC consequently has a large number of logistics support vessels, as
interchangeable spare parts are almost unknown. Many of these vessels are also
fitted for landing
Jon Tuffley on the LLAR acquiring the Konstantin carrier
> They're probably welcome to it!
That fits pretty well the modern-day situation of Latin American
carriers. According to my 1993 world defense almanach, Brazil and Argentina
each had a 1940's vintage carrier (extensively refit), both in dock and more
likely to be scrapped than to be used again.
Ships are not acquired just for purely military reasons, prestige often plays
a significant role in the decision.And players buy a mini because it looks
cool.
As an aside, based on slightly boosted present-day strengths, I see the
LLAR having about the following fleet:
1 Attack carrier (as said, as much for prestige as for real military reasons)
2-3 light carriers (to do the real work)
half a dozen battleships (about what Latin America had in the dreadnought
era - anybody got a Jane's ca.1914 ?)
a dozen or so cruisers
sundry destroyers and smaller vessels
Greetings Karl Heinz
On Mon, 29 May 2000 11:28:02 +1000 Beth Fulton
<beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au> wrote, anent of who buys what in the way of
ships from whom:
Quoting Schoon:
> Japan - Produces NAC Designs
> Why not a load of their own too - of all the nations I could see
fighter/mech heavy) <
Plus the fact that Jon T has said that there's a load of Japanese ships
in the pipeline -- heavily anime-influenced, IIRC. Remember that Jon
asked us to choose if the FT-11xx range were to be UN, Japanese or
someone else. We said UNSC, which he was happy with because he had
other ideas for Japan -- so add Japanese self-design to that list.
Phil, hoping I remembered all that correctly...
> aebrain wrote:
Another notable
> ship is the (former) NSL SuperDreadnaught "Graf von Lueckner",
You mean to say, your patrol vessel calls SARCo, we come into the aftermath of
a combat zone at great risk, we board and secure the SDN for you so you can
truthfully tell the NSL that it wasn't you who stole, er, captured, uh,
acquired the ship, and this is the thanks we get?
> gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU wrote:
Jon Tuffley on the LLAR acquiring the Konstantin carrier
> They're probably welcome to it!
That fits pretty well the modern-day situation of Latin American
carriers. According to my 1993 world defense almanach, Brazil and Argentina
each had a 1940's vintage carrier (extensively refit), both in dock and more
likely to be scrapped than to be used again.
Ships are not acquired just for purely military reasons, prestige often plays
a significant role in the decision.And players buy a mini because it looks
cool.
As an aside, based on slightly boosted present-day strengths, I see the
LLAR having about the following fleet:
1 Attack carrier (as said, as much for prestige as for real military reasons)
2-3 light carriers (to do the real work)
half a dozen battleships (about what Latin America had in the dreadnought
era - anybody got a Jane's ca.1914 ?)
a dozen or so cruisers
sundry destroyers and smaller vessels
Greetings Karl Heinz
South American Dreadnoughts circa 1914: Argentina: 2 Chile: 2 both taken over
by the British in WWI. One was returned over to Chile after the war. Brazil: 3
one (the Rio de Janiero) was seized by the British and became the Agincourt.
Offered to Brazil after WWI, but obsolete by that time and so the offer was
refused.
So a half-dozen battleships for the LLAR would be about right.
***
Ships are not acquired just for purely military reasons, prestige often plays
a significant role in the decision.And players buy a mini because it looks
cool.
***
Just remember, these tend to be held back from REAL danger as much as
possible. If I recall, many units in Argentina navy were held back from the
Falklands/Malvinas brew-ups because of difficulty of repair/replace. AND
they would have been pretty easy to whack.
As an aside, I'd like to suggest some 'missing' ships might actually still
be in the navy. In the ESU, front line/deep space commanders use, er,
creative bookkeeping and acquistion. My DD patrol flotilla has attached two
Gorchov's, a Beijing ADFC variant, and a frigate. VERY creative...
The Gorchov's were being returned to the reserve fleet, and the Beijing was
refused reassignment berths after accompaning BDN to it's death to FSE missle
salvoes. The BDN's captain was a fool, but the Bejing garnered the
rep as a hard-luck ship, and few admirals believe in the iron wall of
fate like ESU force commanders.
Duty aboard the 'flying ghettos' is even worse given the storage of
replacements of SM's. Rotation to the Escort Cruiser, fitted as it is as a
plush fleet ship, is a prized form of reward.
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
> aebrain wrote: