Oerjan and I were discussing an IF vs KV vector battle in light of the
forthcoming FB2, and Oerjan pointed out a balance issue.
The KraVak, we all know, tend to have one-arc-only heavy weapons
plus lots of maneuverability. This will make them balance human fleets in
Cinematic mode; but in vector, the KV can always turn to face at the end of
their move, so a limited firing arc doesn't really limit them, and the human
fleet will get outmaneuvered and obliterated. (Actually, Oerjan said something
to the effect that he'd take the IF side to face my KV, making
it pretty much an even fight--thanks, Oerjan :-P ).
Further, in vector we have a couple of ways to abuse the system. If you're
running away from someone, you can thrust, rotate, and
fire, then next turn rotate and thrust--you get a full effect F
arc shot every other tun while running away at full speed. You can also use
the following extremely cheddary sequence to get more than your maximum
thrust: Thrust, turn 90 degrees, and push; next turn push, turn back to your
original heading, and
thrust. A thrust 4 ship can effectively move 5 MU/turn using
this sequence.
I am therefore going to enter a suggestion that rotating in Vector be limited
to the beginning of the move.
Debate?
G'day Laserlight,
> Oerjan and I were discussing an IF vs KV vector battle in light
Thats why he's near and dear to all our hearts;)
> The KraVak, we all know, tend to have one-arc-only heavy weapons
Sod that for a joke! Admittedly it doesn't limit them as much as in cinematic,
but the number fo times I could've REALLY done with a second arc. Case in
point, Lachy and I are going hammer and tong, KV muddle headed navigator ends
the ship at an astonishing 2" from NSL BB (WOW even I stand a chance of
hitting with the KV at 2", heck I could shout insults at them at this
distance), unfortunately Lachy's BB is about 5 degrees out of my forward arc.
While I went and found my "KV insult guide" Lachy's BB tore the stuffin out of
me!!!!
> Further, in vector we have a couple of ways to abuse the system.
Maybe, maybe not....
> If you're running away from someone, you can thrust, rotate, and
Must resist argument here, must resist...;)
> I am therefore going to enter a suggestion that rotating in
Actually this may or may not solve the problem... let it just be said Jon
ain't deaf;)
Cheers
Beth
Greets,
I would rather see the vector spin cost upped to 2pts rather than than having
the rules enforce a timing issue on the players. Why NOT thrust and then spin?
There is no real logical reason to enforce spinning only at the beginning.
On the gripping hand, upping the cost to two can be explained as 1pt to start
the rotation and the other point to stop it at a given heading...
-=Kr'rt
Being only able to fire every other turn seems like quite a penalty to me.
If we are going to play with the vector rules, I would suggest that: 1) Pushes
are done away with. A maneuvering thrusters are not going to push a ship
1000km in 15 minutes. 2) Give a ship a number of Maneuver Points and a number
of Thrust Points. 3) Cost a turn at 1pt of Maneuver per clockface (facing)
turn. 4) Mass of an engine would be:
Mass = (Thrust * .025) + (Maneuver * .025) [round up]
5) Cost of an engine would be Engine Mass * 2 6) All Fleetbook 1 ships are
considered to have equal maneuver and Thrust Rating.
This would allow to have a greater mix of ships and restore an advantage for
having a more agile ship.
The more than maximum thrust is easily handled by the common (near cannon)
house rule of not allowing a push to be separated from a MD by a rotation.
---
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net <mailto:bkb@beol.net>
http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/
---
[quoted original message omitted]
> fleets in Cinematic mode; but in vector, the KV can always
Beth replied:
> Sod that for a joke! Admittedly it doesn't limit them as much
(gently) Beth, I was talking about _normal_ players.
> At 08:10 PM 3/19/00 -0500, Brian wrote:
I like (and have used, really) a lot of the above suggestions, but don't you
need to point the FB1 ships so that they have *half* the maneuver rating of
their main drive?
Point #3 is from the original vector rules Jon used (pre-FB1 release),
and
I still prefer it to the "always turn 180" -- though that is at least in
part because I use Space Fleet "we steer like a cow!" starships. <grin>
Besides, this way your maneuver rating will be trimmed along with the thrust
should you fail a threshold check... now, is that because of the engines, or
because something in the hull structure went "boiing!" and you don't want to
stress it before the DCPs get over there...?
G'day,
> (gently) Beth, I was talking about _normal_ players.
Yeah OK then...but the doc says the twitch will be gone soon...;)
Beth
> Laserlight wrote:
> Oerjan and I were discussing an IF vs KV vector battle in light
Or at least doesn't limit them nearly as much as it would in Cinematic.
> and the human fleet will get outmaneuvered and obliterated.
To be more accurate I said that the *IF* will get outmaneuvered and
obliterated in Vector, due to their particular choice of hull configuration
and weapon mix.
Other human design styles, eg the NSL and ESU, have done quite OK in
the Vector playtest battles against the KV - Beth is our resident
expert on those, though admittedly she *does* have certain problems rolling
high enough to hit even when her ships are facing the right
direction ;-)
> (Actually, Oerjan said something
Well, *you* were the one who suggested that you'd need to remove all of *my*
FC systems to make it a fair fight... <G>
> Further, in vector we have a couple of ways to abuse the system.
[description of potential Vector abuses snipped]
As Beth said, "Must resist" <g>
> I am therefore going to enter a suggestion that rotating in
Sorry, can't resist <g> Let's say that FB2 is... likely to change the premises
for your suggestion somewhat. I'm afraid you'll have to wait a
few more weeks to learn exactly what those changes are, though ;-)
Later,
In my original formula, I had maneuver cost 2x that of Thrust.
However, I found that this led to VERY unmaneuverable ships. All of the stock
ships with a MD of 2 would take 6 turns to be IN POSSITION to reverse thier
course. This was a little too limiting.
However, to make it more in line with cinematic, it could read:
1) Engines are divided into 2 ratings: Rotation (R) and Main Drive (MD) 2) The
speed and agility of the ship are determined by these factors. Rotation
provides the ability to change the facing of a ship Cinematic: 1 point of R =
1 clock face change Vector: 1 point of R = up to 2 clock face changes in
facing Main drive provides the ability to change the velocity of the ship 1
point of MD = 1 point of thrust applied 3) The mass of the engine is
determined by the ratings of the engine.
Engine Mass = (MD * 0.25) + (R * 0.5) [round up]
4) Cost of the engine would be 2 * Engine Mass 5) Damage from a threshold
check would inflitct a reduction to
1/2 of EACH rating [round down]. A second damage from a
threshold check woud knock out the engine completely. 6) All stock ships from
the fleet book would have a MD rating equal
to the listed rating and an R rating = 1/2 the MD rating.
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
-----
> -----Original Message-----
[snip]
> I like (and have used, really) a lot of the above suggestions, but
<grin>
> Besides, this way your maneuver rating will be trimmed along with the
> >If you're running away from someone, you can thrust, rotate, and
This one has been discussed before. The easiest way to deal with this is to
say a push and a thrust may not be separated by a rotate.
G'day Oerjan,
> though admittedly she *does* have certain problems
You know I'd be insulted by that if it weren't so true;)
After the awe inspiring Phalon fleet that turned up for Derek this morning
I've been inspired to go find dice which feature numbers greater than one!
Cheers
Beth