On Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:57 AM, aebrain@austarmetro.com.au
> [SMTP:aebrain@austarmetro.com.au] wrote:
I really prefer MTs, but it's a matter of taste - your opinion is at
least as good as mine.
> > I presume that your ship with 12+ MT missiles is intended as a
certainly has a lot to recommend it (and would give Jon a chance to make TWO
heavy carrier models for the Japanese).
> The fleet at the end of all this should be able to hold its own
Alan, I presume the mass of the Long Lance is 2? It wasn't stated when
mentioned during WotW discussions.
A few possible designs for discussion
Destroyer Mass: 40 Cost: MD: 6 FTL: Yes
Hull: 12; 3/3/3/3
Armour: 1 Crew: 2 Systems: 11 mass 1 x FCS 2 x PDS 1 x Pulsetorp (F) 2 x Long
Lance Capship missiles
Heavy Cruiser Mass: 84 Cost: MD: 6 FTL: Yes
Hull: 24; 6/6/6/6
Armour: 4 Crew: 5 Systems: 26 mass 2 x FCS ADFC 3 x PDS 2 x Pulsetorp (F)
2 x Class-2 (6-arc)
2 x Long Lance Capship missiles
Battlecruiser Mass: 130 Cost: MD: 6 FTL: Yes
Hull: 38; 9/9/10/10
Armour: Crew: 7 Systems: 40 3 x FCS ADFC 4 x PDS
Fighter Bay - Std Fighters
2 x Pulsetorps (F) 2 x Long Lance Capship missiles
4 x Class-2 (2 x AP/FP/F, 2 x F/FS/AS)
SuperDreadnought Mass: 240 Cost: MD: 4 FTL: Yes
Hull: 72; 18/18/18/18
Armour: 10 Crew: 12 Systems: 86 mass 4 x FCS ADFC 4 x PDS
Fighter Bay - Std Fighters
3 x Pulsetorps (FP/F/FS)
4 x Long Lance Capship missiles
2 x Class-4 (F)
4 x Class-3 (2 x AP/FP/F, 2 x F/FS/AS)
3 x Class-2 (6-arc)
Light Carrier Mass: 180 Cost: MD: 6 FTL: Yes
Hull: 48; 12/12/12/12
Armour: 6 Crew: Systems: 52 2 x FCS ADFC 4 x PDS
4 x Fighter Bays - Std fighters
2 x Long Lance capship missiles
4 x Class-2 (2 x AP/FP/F, 2 x F/FS/AS)
2 x Class-1 (6-arc)
> Alan, I presume the mass of the Long Lance is 2? It wasn't stated
Correct, it's 2 when in a rack. 1 from a (3-mass) launcher.
MT missiles come in 4 flavours (chosen before battle)
"Misericorde" - 3D6 warhead, endurance 1
"Standard" - 2D6 warhead, endurance 3
"Long Lance" - 1D6 warhead, endurance 5.
"EMP" - EMP warhead, endurance 1 (causes an additional threshold on
(3+Scr) or above, plus 1 pt, so an EMP vs SCR-2 target needs a 5+. 3
EMPs affecting a ship in one turn would cause a single 4+ threshold if
it was undamaged, a 3+ if it had lost 1 row etc)
MT missiles move 18" per turn like fighters but before they do, home in as per
SMs, but can also burn an endurance like fighters to move 6" (3" in
vector)after ships have moved.
> A few possible designs for discussion
In summary: make em more fragile, add some more beams and maybe screens with
the saved weight. Standardise on armour = 1 row of hull ( so 16
hull -> 4 armour).
> Destroyer
Initial reactions: cut down hull to 20%.
Add 2 Beam-2s or (better) 4 Beam-1s.
If that's too fragile, increase size.
> Heavy Cruiser
Hull to 17, add 2 Class-2/3 + 3 Class-1/6
> Battlecruiser
Hull 26, Armour 6, add 1 Class-2/3 and 3 Class-1/6
> SuperDreadnought
Hull 48, Armour 12
Add 2 more class-4s(!!!), 1 Class-2/3, 4 Class-1
(what about Screens??)
> Light Carrier
36 hull. Armour 9. Delete missiles.
Add 1 Fighter Bay, add 2 Class-2/3.
Of course they're your designs, that's just a first opinion,
You're right, I forgot about the screens.
Destroyer Mass: 40 Cost: MD: 6 FTL: Yes
Hull: 8; 2/2/2/2
Armour: 1 Crew: 2 Systems: 15 mass 1 x FCS 2 x PDS 1 x Pulsetorp (F) 2 x Long
Lance Capship missiles
4 x Class-1 (6-arc)
Heavy Cruiser Mass: 84 Cost: MD: 6 FTL: Yes
Hull: 16; 4/4/4/4
Armour: 4 Crew: 5 Systems: 34 mass 2 x FCS ADFC 3 x PDS 2 x Pulsetorp (F)
2 x Class-2 (6-arc)
2 x Class-2 (FP/F/FS)
4 x Class-1
2 x Long Lance Capship missiles
Battlecruiser Mass: 130 Cost: MD: 6 FTL: Yes
Hull: 26; 6/6/7/7
Armour: 6 Crew: 7 Systems: 40 3 x FCS ADFC 4 x PDS
Fighter Bay - Std Fighters
2 x Pulsetorps (F) 2 x Long Lance Capship missiles
Class-2 (FP/F/FS)
4 x Class-2 (2 x AP/FP/F, 2 x F/FS/AS)
4 x Class-1
SuperDreadnought Mass: 240 Cost: MD: 4 FTL: Yes
Hull: 48; 12/12/12/12
Armour: 12 Crew: 12 Systems: 108 mass
Screen-2
4 x FCS ADFC 4 x PDS
Fighter Bay - Std Fighters
2 x Pulsetorps (FP/F/FS)
4 x Long Lance Capship missiles
4 x Class-4 (F)
3 x Class-2 (6-arc)
4 x Class-1
Light Carrier Mass: 180 Cost: MD: 6 FTL: Yes
Hull: 36; 9/9/9/9
Armour: 9 Crew: 9 Systems: 61 mass 2 x FCS ADFC 4 x PDS
5 x Fighter Bays - Std fighters
Class-2 (FP/F/FS)
2 x Class-2 (AP/FP/F)
2 x Class-2 (F/FS/AS)
> Alan E Brain wrote:
> Correct, it's 2 when in a rack. 1 from a (3-mass) launcher.
Wouldn't mass 2 launcher make more sense? 4 mass for 2 missiles in either a
rack or launcher, then you have a mass savings from the third missile on.
> "EMP" - EMP warhead, endurance 1 (causes an additional threshold on
Is this different then the MT book? EMP missiles there have 3 endurance.
> In summary: make em more fragile, add some more beams and maybe
How about 20% hull, 10% armour? that's just my personal preference:)
> A SuperDread with 4 Beam-4s, and thrust-4 so it can keep em bearing,
Spinal mount baby.:) I'm still of the mind of huge beams backed with swarms of
missiles.
Hey, what comes in the IJN mega fleet pack?
Here's my take on some IJN ships as I wait in anticipation for my mega fleet
to arrive.:) Tell me what you think.
Jaime
Destoyer: Mass = 44 Cost = 152 Thrust = 6 FTL = Normal CrewFactors = 3
DP = 8; 2/2/2/2
Armor Box = 4 Weapons and Such # Name
2 Class 2 Battery, 3 arcs (ap/fp/f; f/fs/as)
3 Class 3 Battery, 1 arc (f) 1 Fire Control 2 PDS
Heavy Cruiser: Mass = 84 Cost = 283 Thrust = 6 FTL = Normal CrewFactors = 5
DP = 16; 4/4/4/4
Armor Box = 8 Weapons and Such # Name
2 Class 2 Battery, 3 arcs (ap/fp/f; f/fs/as)
2 Class 3 Battery, 1 arc (f) 1 Class 4 Battery, 1 arc (f) 2 Fire Control 3 PDS
1 ADFC
Heavy Cruiser {Missile}: Mass = 8 Cost = 291 Thrust = 4 FTL = Normal
CrewFactors = 5
DP = 16; 4/4/4/4
Armor Box = 6 Weapons and Such # Name
3 Class 2 Battery, 3 arcs (ap/fp/f; fp/f/fs; f/fs/as)
3 SML (ap/fp/f; fp/f/fs; f/fs/as)
3 Std SML Salvo 3 ER SML Salvo 2 Fire Control 3 PDS 1 ADFC
Battlecruiser: Mass = 94 Cost = 327 Thrust = 4 FTL = Normal CrewFactors = 5
DP = 18; 5/5/4/4
Armor Box = 8 Shields = 1 Weapons and Such # Name
3 Class 2 Battery, 3 arcs (ap/fp/f; fp/f/fs; f/fs/as)
3 Class 3 Battery, 1 arc (f) 1 Class 4 Battery, 1 arc (f) 3 Fire Control 4 PDS
1 ADFC
Battleship: Mass = 134 Cost = 460 Thrust = 4 FTL = Normal CrewFactors = 7
DP = 26; 7/7/6/6
Armor Box: 12 Shields = 2 Weapons and Such # Name
2 Class 2 Battery, 3 arcs (ap/fp/f; f/fs/as)
4 Class 3 Battery, 1 arc (f) 2 Class 4 Battery, 1 arc (f) 4 PDS 1 ADFC
Super Dreadnought: Mass = 244 Cost = 840 Thrust = 4 FTL = Normal CrewFactors =
13
DP = 48; 12/12/12/12
Armor Box = 21 Shields = 2 Weapons and Such # Name
3 Class 2 Battery, 3 arcs (ap/fp/f; fp/f/fs; f/fs/as)
3 Class 3 Battery, 1 arc (f) 2 Class 4 Battery, 1 arc (f) 1 Class 5 Battery, 1
arc (f)
2 SML (ap/fp/f; f/fs/as)
2 Std SML Salvo 2 ER SML Salvo 4 Fire Control 6 PDS 1 ADFC
Fleet Carrier: Mass = 244
Cost = 836 + fighters
Thrust = 4 FTL = Normal CrewFactors = 13
DP = 48; 12/12/12/12
Armour Box = 19 Shields = 1 Weapons and Such # Name
6 Class 2 Battery, 3 arcs (2 x ap/fp/f; 2 x fp/f/fs; 2 x f/fs/as)
2 SML (ap/fp/f; f/fs/as)
2 Std SML Salvo 2 ER SML Salvo 2 Fire Control 6 PDS 1 ADFC
From: "Robertson, Brendan" <Brendan.Robertson@dva.gov.au>
> You're right, I forgot about the screens.
Like the revised ones a lot.
From: "Jaime Tiampo" <fugu@spikyfishthing.com>
> Alan E Brain wrote:
The launchers are the same ones as for SMs - much like a Mk12 launcher
can fire Standards or Harpoons (or ASROCs IIRC).
There is also a fear that having 1-mass missiles of any description will
be unbalancing. I'd rather err on the side of caution.
> > "EMP" - EMP warhead, endurance 1 (causes an additional threshold on
Yes. The MT missiles described above MAY repeat MAY be the version in FT3. Or
FB3 if that comes out first. Only Jon can say, and he isn't. Saying, that is.
> > In summary: make em more fragile, add some more beams and maybe
4 armour).
> How about 20% hull, 10% armour? that's just my personal preference :)
Would make em toast in the hands of the KV. The estimable Oerjan thinks
that even 20/5 is too much armour, but as in my experience the K-1 does
as much as the rest put together, I disagree. But I play cinematic.
> > A SuperDread with 4 Beam-4s, and thrust-4 so it can keep em bearing,
Yes, keep the range long. Remember those "Long Lance"s may only do 1D6, but
> Hey, what comes in the IJN mega fleet pack?
4 x fighter groups (plus the new-style "spider" stands)
4 x Corvettes 4 x Frigates 4 x Destroyers 2 x Patrol Cruisers 1 x Super
battleship 1 x Super Dreadnought 1 x Carrier
In other words, something of everything that's currently in production....
Don't forget the Mega Fleet deal is only available until tonight! ;-)
> Ground Zero Games wrote:
Um, can you explain a bit what these are (the stands that is)? Is there a
picture anywhere?
TTFN
Jon
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:46:49PM +1100, Robertson, Brendan wrote:
Legal design, costs 136.
> Heavy Cruiser
Not a legal design, 2 over-mass:
Item Mass Points
Basic Hull (84) 84
Hull Integrity 16 32
Armour 4 8
FTL Drive 8 16
Main Drive (Thrust 6) 25 50
Sub-total 53 190
FCS x 2 2 8
ADFC 2 8
PDS x 3 3 9
Pulse Torpedo (1 arc) x 2 8 24
Class 2 Batt (6 arc) x 2 6 18
Class 2 Batt (3 arc) x 2 4 12
Class 1 Batt (6 arc) x 4 4 12
Missile x 2 4 12
Sub-total 33 103
Total 86 293
Becomes legal if you increase hull size to 88, 301 points.
> Battlecruiser
Legal, but 2 under-mass; I'd be inclined to add another beam-2 in the
forward hemisphere.
Item Mass Points
Basic Hull (130) 130
Hull Integrity 26 52
Armour 6 12
FTL Drive 13 26
Main Drive (Thrust 6) 39 78
Sub-total 84 298
FCS x 3 3 12
ADFC 2 8
PDS x 4 4 12
Fighter Bay 9 27
Pulse Torpedo (1 arc) x 2 8 24
Missile x 2 4 12
Class 2 Batt (3 arc) 2 6
Class 2 Batt (3 arc) x 2 4 12
Class 2 Batt (3 arc) x 2 4 12
Class 1 Batt (6 arc) x 4 4 12
Sub-total 44 137
Total 128 435
With the extra B2, 441 points.
> SuperDreadnought
Legal design, 834 points.
> Light Carrier
Legal design, 607 points.
Yes, I like these - sufficiently different from the FB fleets and the
other ships I've been playing with (mostly NR). I'd still like to see rules
for big spinal weapons in the "official" versions.
From: Alan E Brain <aebrain@austarmetro.com.au>
> "EMP" - EMP warhead, endurance 1 (causes an additional threshold on
Maybe I'm just suffering from caffeine depletion, but this isn't as clear to
me as I'd like. Is that "plus 1 point" meaning a point of hull damage? You're
saying multiple EMP hits do a single threshold check? What happens if I manage
to get 6 hits at the same turn?
> Alan Brain wrote:
> >>In summary: make em more fragile, add some more beams and maybe
I usually play Cinematic too, Alan... but I've specialized in using
high-manoeuverability fleets with heavy (F)-arc armaments for the past
eight years or so, which may skew my opinion <g>
In Vector, where the KV get to fire their main gun more often, 5 armour to 20
hull is definitely too much.
10 armour to 20 hull only works against K-guns if you have Phalon-style
multi-layered armour, and that's true in both movement systems.
Later,
> On 1/31/02 12:09 PM, "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> wrote:
> In Vector, where the KV get to fire their main gun more often, 5
I generally find that in cinematic games that the "1 row" rule works out quite
well. It's generally the basis I used for ScanFed designs.
> Ground Zero Games wrote:
There's a pic in our latest update sheet, but not on the website yet (my
fault....!) :-(
Basically, it's a metal bit that fits on top of a standard plastic starship
stand post, consisting of a small central hub with 6 thin arms radiating out
from it; the arms are of varying lengths, and each has a small "pad" on the
end. You can bend the arms up or down slightly as desired, then you glue your
fighters to the pads on the ends; when the "spider" is painted black to match
the stand, and the fighters are in a nice bright paint scheme, the visual
effect of a group flying at various levels is quite effective. Of course, if
you just want to use, say, 3 fighter models to represent a group, you can just
clip 3 arms off.
We've been including the spider stands in the mega-Fleet deals, but they
are available separately (code FT-002) at 50p (0.50 UKP) each, which
includes the plastic base & post as well.
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> Initial comment: These designs are all heavily geared towards Vector
True. As an adaptation I'd make class 3's 2 arc.
> >Destoyer: MASS COST
That's 4 mass too much. Revised as having only 2 class 3s. How that got that
way I don't know. Thanks for catching it.
> >Heavy Cruiser {Missile}:
oops on the cut and paste and editing.
> >Battleship: MASS COST
hmm.. odd. I ran it through the program again and it came up the same. Must be
a bug somewhere. On the note of not having any FCs, well that's just plain
stupidity. I'll have to revise the design.
> >Fleet Carrier: MASS COST
hmm.. don't know where I made that mistake.
Thanks for the rundown.
> On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 07:49:10PM -0800, Jaime Tiampo wrote:
Looks like it; my software agrees with Oerjan on each item.