[FT] Fleet design (Was Re: Alarishi Home Page)

Speaking of stealth, where are the NI stealth rules?

Thanks

Jim Clem
Full Thrust Site http://www.geocities.com/area51/stargate/2891/ncs.html

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:50:55 -0800 Sean Bayan Schoonmaker
> <schoon@aimnet.com> writes:

Thanks kindly. It seems the NCS, sometime in 2185, slipped someone into the
Midbar Skunkworks and, ummm, obtained, the specs for New Israel's stealth
tech. Since then, they have been working on applying it to their new fleet
doctrines. Needless to say, the NI are not really happy with this, though the
NCS has done its best to make nice to them since.

Jim Clem
Full Thrust Site http://www.geocities.com/area51/stargate/2891/ncs.html

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:08:44 +0000 (GMT) Thomas Anderson
> <thomas.anderson@university-college.oxford.ac.uk> writes:

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:39:08 -0500 "Izenberg, Noam"
> <Noam.Izenberg@jhuapl.edu> writes:
I would posit that if such a
> theft were somehow to occur, either military confrontation would very
============================================
Well Mr.Izenberg, I can't say the NCS has always done things the smart way.
What with the NCS encountering KV scouts in 2183, and again in 2184 (AAR to
follow soon), and taking a good kicking both times, the NCSN is beginning to
feel a bit paranoid as well. If you note Nyrath's
map.........

<kowtow>

All Hail Nyrath the Indispensable! Master Stellacartographer and High Lord of
Astropolitical Locations!

</kowtow>

..........ummm, anyway, the once the KV figures out the general direction of
Human space's core worlds, the NCS is going to be sitting right at the pointy
end of the spear, so to speak. Anyway, even though the NI is paranoid about
its facilities, no facility is perfectly sealable. Shortly after the Second
Battle of LTT 6104, the NCS got wind of the NI having some sort of stealth
tech. Having been unable to obtain or successfully copy the cloaking tech of
the Big 4, the NCSN mounted an operation to obtain it. The details are,
needless to say, classified, but they managed to get hold of it somehow.

Now, the obligatory game tie in. I'd love to take you on in some PbEM
action, detailing the short lived NI/NCS war of 2186.  I've got FT MT FB
and DS2 (I gotta get SG2 sometime here). Any ideas?? It could add nicely to
our joint histories.

> John L. wrote:

> Question: Do all/most of the people doing nations on the GZGpedia use

As you know, I'm making the New Israel fleet with stealth hulls (and therefore
house rules). However, I have been thinking about making
_another_ NI fleet using only FB systems, for situations where house
rules are different or dis-allowed. For NI, a purely canon fleet would
also dictate a doctrine change from long range sniping to close-in
armored knife fighting, mainly because that's what I'd rather do if I didn't
have stealth ships to play with.

> As you know, I'm making the New Israel fleet with stealth hulls (and

I think that this would be a good call. It's important to seperate canonical
from "house" creations.

> On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, j a c wrote:

> Speaking of stealth, where are the NI stealth rules?

ici:

http://members.xoom.com/gzg_l/ni/ni-rules.txt

Tom

> John L. wrote:

Well, all Illuminati ships have stealth too--I'm modelling it after the
Mimbari ECM system from the EFSB*--but I was reluctant to include it in
the designs on my fleet page. I wanted to create a strictly "legal" force, so
that everything would fit (more or less) into the standard
universe and allow me to play as-is against a new opponent.  What I've
decided to do when I redo the page (soon, honestly) is include the stats

for the Illuminati stealth system, and add a note to each ship; something like
"To include stealth system, remove one Class 2 Battery and three point of
armor." Of course, this means that I have to work
out Point/Mass costs for Illuminati stealth first....

*It's not going to be a world beater--opponent must make a roll to
lock-on, and cannot fire at the stealthed ship if he fails the roll.  If

the stealthed ship fires any weapon, or applies more than 2 points of thrust,
stealth is negated for the turn.

***
If the stealthed ship fires any weapon, or applies more than 2 points of
thrust, stealth is negated for the turn.
***

Of course, John Crimmins reminds me of the speed restriction I'd thought of,
but failed to include.

Did I say reminds me? I meant SHAMES me. ;->=

The_Beast with many mature moments today

Stealth Lives! Muah-ah-ah!

NI> >However, I have been thinking about making
NI> >_another_ NI fleet using only FB systems, for situations
NI> > where house rules are different or dis-allowed.

Schoon> I think that this would be a good call. It's important Schoon> to
seperate canonical from "house" creations.

Ah well. Back to the drawing board.

JCrim> What I've decided to do when I redo the page JCrim> (soon, honestly) is
include the stats for the Illuminati JCrim> stealth system, and add a note to
each ship; JCrim> something like "To include stealth system, remove JCrim> one
Class 2 Battery and three point of armor."

I'd do that for NI, but the changes would be too many

devans> I haven't been following the stealth discussion; devans> I figured the
ideas were prettymuch covered devans> under 'cloak'. However, I'm a little
confused. Firing devans> doesn't negate stealth characteristics?.

Not according to my PSB. The game mechanic of my stealth hull reduces
weapon range by 1/4 to 1/3. The PSB is that the hull prevents lock-on,
so you have to fire manually or at a large error ellipse. The scattering
effect of the hull is not cancelled by weapons fire over tens of thousands of
km, though enhanced and special sensors can beat down the noise and reduce
stealth by 1 or 2 levels respectively if tied in with a firecon. Now some
people on the list dislike the game mechanic or the PSB or both, so YMMV.

devans> Rather thansniping and constantly negating your devans> stealth,
wouldn't you use stealth toapproach to allow
devans> short range/powerful weopens a chance to devastate?

That would be a different (and interesting) conception of stealth. For
example, make range reduction 1/2 and negate the effect if you fire any
weapons. However the tradeoff in offensive power for that kind of stealth
would not be worth it in my book.

JClem> Thanks kindly. It seems the NCS, sometime in JClem> 2185, slipped
someone intothe Midbar Skunkworks JClem> and, ummm, obtained, the specs for
New Israel's JClem> stealth tech.

If you had any idea how unlikely that was... The skunkworks are located in the
dense Sabra asteroid belt with an exact location known to only a few thousand
in NI itself (even the majority of those that work in the complex couldn't
navigate to it from more than a few million km away). The average NI citizen
would tell you it's not even real. It is well defended and secured by Mossad
and Shin Bet. This is not to say that other groups couldn't develop the tech
themselves (clearly a balanced system (which I hope this is) should be
available whoever wants to use
it). I'm just taking issue with the idea that it was  _stolen_ from the
reasobably paranoid NI, of all places. I would posit that if such a theft were
somehow to occur, either military confrontation would very quickly ensue (say,
raids on NCS research and construction facilities), or energies would be
devoted to sabotage efforts to gain from the theft.

Now if you want to talk trade or sale, NI has no qualms about selling certain
ships of its own design or contracting to construct custom ships for others.

> j a c wrote:

> Izenberg, Noam wrote:
...Snip...JTL
 I'm just taking issue with the idea that it was  _stolen_ from the
> reasobably paranoid NI, of all places. I would posit that if such a
...Snip...JTL
> Noam

On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:39:27 -0500 Laserlight <laserlight@cwix.com>
writes:
> NCS evidently tried it at Alarishi Naval Yards as well. Even found
============

Ahhhh, we had been wondering what happened to him! Regarding the NCS's actions
between 2184 and 2186, the NCS citizens are getting a bit nervous about these
aliens. The NCS government is getting a bit paranoid about them. The NCSN,
now, they're getting downright scared about them. Trying to steal stealth tech
was not a wise decision, but hey, none of us is perfect, eh? The tech would
have fit in well with the new fleet doctrines of sneak and strike. After 2186,
the remaining members of the general staff that made that decision were tried
for criminal acts, two were hung, and the rest given life in prison (a lot of
NCSN personnel died because of their acts.) I wouldn't blame the NI for being
mad about the theft. My take is that such an act would add more flavor to our
various histories. If we make the stealth tech optional, then perhaps the NI's
research failed, but the NCS didn't know that until they tried to steal it.
Either way, it made for some chilly (and occasionally very hot) relations
between the NI and NCS.

> On a more serious note, we need to rein in "ubertech" that doesn't

> j a c wrote:

> I would posit that if such a

> Shortly after the Second Battle of LTT 6104, the NCS got wind of the NI

NCS evidently tried it at Alarishi Naval Yards as well. Even found it,
probably thanks to the fact that one of our major shipyards is New Pascagoula.
Regrettably, the agent seems to have run off with his find...and without his
pressure suit. Our condolences to his family. Noam, if you need some backup in
this intellectual property dispute, the Alarishi Empire is always willing to
engage in joint training exercises alongside the NI Navy.

On a more serious note, we need to rein in "ubertech" that doesn't come from
the Big Four. If they, with their trillions...hundred billions....scores of
billions? Where are we on the population thing? Anyway, if the Big Guys
haven't discovered it, it's probably not because their militaries are old and
stodgy. Consequently, it's unlikely that minor powers will have much new tech.

> Laserlight wrote:
...Snip...JTL
Anyway, if the Big Guys
> haven't discovered it, it's probably not because their militaries are

It happens that the FCT has all that technology and is not
presently at war (2187).   Ha, Ha!    We happen to think it is
more desireable than the NI products.   :-)

Bye for now,

> Laserlight wrote:

Personally, I like Noams idea about the alternate fleet.

I feel that ideas that need to be tested should be presented to the list, but
not as part of the GZGpedia.

Bye for now,

> >Shortly after the Second Battle of LTT 6104, the NCS got wind of the

Well as a matter of fact, The FCT is trying to unload...sell a very compact
experimental subspace star drive.....cloaking device. Guarenteed to have no
emissions of any kind (you are after all in subspace). You will have to
navigate by dead reconing but that should not be a problem.   It is mass
one per 10, or fraction thereof, of the starship that carries it. The price
is reasonable, contact the L-mart shipbuilding Co, on Austin, FCT.

Bye for now,

> Well as a matter of fact, The FCT is trying to unload ...sell a very

Is that the one with no "OFF" switch you've been having problems with?:
)

> Laserlight wrote:
...Snip...jtl
> >price

> Laserlight wrote:

Of course, it *does* go down unexpectedly on a roll of 6, and
requires another roll of 6 to restart.  ;-)

- Sam

[snip]
> On a more serious note, we need to rein in "ubertech" that doesn't come

Makes sense.

And if the Big Guys *do* have it...well, NAC and ESU expat researchers are
most welcome in the Reynolds Consortium (under the Alarishi umbrella), which
was started by same. And probably welcome elsewhere, as well. The Big Guys
won't be the only ones with it for long (whatever "it" is).

(We do have to maintain game balance, after all--at least within
broad parameters.)

- Sam

> At 08:00 AM 2/27/99 -0700, you wrote:

Bah, humbug! The Illuminati has had this kind of tech for generations. All
they've done is scale it up a little. Today, Black Helicopters, tomorrow Black
Dreadnoughts. It's a simple and logical progression.

On a more serious note, it is entirely possible that smaller governments are
willing to take chances on research that the Big Guys would never even
consider; well-developed bureacracies cause nearly as many problems as
they solve. The Alrishi Empire would be a likely candidate for developing new
tech: they probably have plenty of zero-G research facilities, and they
seem to have a higher than normal collection of cranks and eccentrics.

That being said, people should be realistic about the capabilites of their
creations (Hey, *I'm* being realistic! The Illuminati are the ultimate rulers
of mankind! They can do ANYthing! Anything, I say! They just...choose not to.
They have a plan.) The major powers are usually going to have both economics
and numbers on their side; your ships may be better than theirs, but they have
more of them, and can build as many as they have to.

> On a more serious note, it is entirely possible that smaller

We're all perfectly normal, sane, and reasonable people. Well, not the Radical
Lesbian Collective, of course. And the New Los Angeles mob is clearly a few
control rods short of a power plant. And you have to wonder about the Knights
Templar, although not while they're around to hear. And the Geek Squad is more
than a little eccentric. But aside from them, we're all normal. Except for the
Forward Power Consortium. And Jack Old Ron.

But yes, I did plan the Empire as a place where research is a necessity, and
having a batch of people with, shall we say, widely varying viewpoints was a
planned factor in this. We specialize in naval architecture,
environmental support systems, and anti-matter technology, all of which
follow from our space-based lifestyle.  However, I'm sure that the
latest NAC designs would be slightly better than the latest Alarishi designs
in most areas, simply because the NAC have a lot more money to throw. So
rather than claiming that we're "ultra-high tech, with the latest in
stealth, sensors, and advanced weapons", I'd say that we have a small navy
with dedicated and experienced crew, designs that are well suited for our
particular needs, and a slight edge in wave gun (anti-matter)
technology.

> Laserlight wrote:
[snip]
> Is that the one with no "OFF" switch you've been having problems

And if anyone has attempted to load Windoze 2185 into the system, you apply
a -5 to the first "crash" roll.....
After which you have to throw out all your computers and buy new ones.

:-)

> At 11:54 AM 2/27/99 -0500, you wrote:
And
> the Geek Squad is more than a little eccentric. But aside from them,

For some reaon, I keep reading that name as "Foul Ol' Ron", from Pratchett's
"Discworld" series. Is there a connection, or is it just a
coincidence?  Come to think of it, though, Ankh-Morpork would make one
hell of a minor power....

> But yes, I did plan the Empire as a place where research is a
technology.

Along with Marines who are highly skilled at Zero-G combat, I'd bet.
And all of that makes sense. It's my feeling that it is not impossible, or
even unlikely, that the smaller powers are going to have tech that the major
powers don't. The wave gun is a good example: If the
Powers-That-Be
in the NAC have decided that wave guns are useless, you aren't going to see
any ships that mount them, and nor will you see any time and/or money
being devoted to improving it. The smaller empires, looking for that "edge"
that will allow them to stand up to the big boys, are going to be more willing
to follow research paths that others have rejected.

In a gaming sense, I'd maintain that new systems should be balanced with,
or inferior to, existing systems--it takes time to work those bugs out,
after all--and should mantain the "flavor" of their creators.  We are
probably not, for example, going to see any new innovations in SML Tech
from the NSL--they seem to see little value in this weapon.  For my own
part, the Illuminati are obsessed with maintaining their secrecy--thus
the Illuminati stealth system, with all of its inherent limitations.

> all normal. Except for the Forward Power Consortium. And Jack Old

Forward Power is from Dr Robert Forward--these are the happy lads who
crank
out the anti-matter.

As for Jack Old Ron, I've read several of the Discworld novels, and I suppose
Ol' Foul Ron might have something to do with it. But it would take a
practicing headologist to be sure.