OK. Where is the balance point?
Against a balanced fleet of Fleet Book ships, where is the balance point?
Lets take a target fleet of a BB, 3 CH, 2 CE, 4 DDs (10 ships). One of: NAC:
1x Victoria BB, 3x Vandengurg CH, 2x Furious CE, 4x Ticonderoga DD NSL: 1x
MVBurgund BB, 3x Markgraf CH, 2x Radetzky CE, 4x Walburg DD
FSE: 1x Roma BB, 3x Jerez CH, 2x Milan/E*, 4x San Miguel DD
ESU: 1x Petrograd BB, 3x Voroshilev CH, 2x Beijing/BE CE, 4x Warsaw DD
*FSE has no ADFC ships. Milan/E replaces a C2B and a salvo missile
reload with an ADFC and 2 extra PDS (and reorients the remaining C2B to
FP,F,FS).
Fleet mass runs 582-634. Cost runs 1950-2120
I know that 1 fighter group has little value. 2 has some value, but I would
still give standard weapons the advantage. 3 is close to even value. 4 begins
to tip the advantage toward the carrier fleet. 5 goes to the carrier fleet.
All IMO.
How would you read the situation? How many fighter groups are too weak to be
of value. How many are too many as to be overpowering if the other side does
not have any?
A balanced system should not force the other side to take it to be competitive
or to take the specific remedy (i.e. screens vs beams).
Please do not read the above as sarcastic. It is not intended to be. I would
like to know where others find the balance.
-----
Brian Bell
-----
> -----Original Message-----
Book ships seem to me to have a very low level
of fighter/missile defense. Even three squadrons
will leave a mark unless there is an ADFC ship present or unless the ships
have a lot of PDS's but the fighters will probably get whittled down.
By the time there are four unopposed squadrons (especially if they're heavy)
they can dominate the game unless they are very unlucky or the targets are
very lucky with their PDS. At that point and beyond you really need your own
carrier to respond.
This is just my own opinion based on fairly limited experience getting
attacked by fighters. My Federation ships are based around being able to
defend themselves against a single 6 squadron
carrier on a point value of about 1500-2000
points. Sometimes they slaughter the fighters. Sometimes they get slaughtered,
but it seems to work out *reasonably* well. When I'm particularly worried, I
bring more Larson DDs which have more PDS's.
This strategy had a particularly bad effect on a small French book fleet as
the PDS's I had to defend against fighters were almost invulnerable to french
SM attacks.
A game we played recently with book NAC/NSL against
book FSE/ESU was pretty even at 5000 points a side.
The FSE/ESU had 2 SDN/carriers with 10 squadrons
and the other side had 7 squadrons of fighters
mostly from a NAC Ark Royal carrier. The NAC/NSL
side was a little behind but still basically holding their own after two
salvos of missiles from the
FSE, but the extra fighters on the ESU/FSE side
WERE causing substantial damage.
--- "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)"
> <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil> wrote:
> How would you read the situation? How many fighter groups are too weak
Actually, I've found as little as 1 or 2 fighter groups to be of immense value
if either deployed defensively against other fighters, used as SML defense, or
held until a target has been stripped of defenses.
--- Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <s_schoon@pacbell.net>
wrote:
> Actually, I've found as little as 1 or 2 fighter
A single fighter group does make a nifty PDS, but an expensive one. The
problem against SM's is that you gave to guess which ship is going to be hit.
That
pds will cost you however 9 mass/45 points. One
benefit is you can move it from ship to ship.
A single fighter groups is probably not going to be much use attacking, though
like you say, against a helpless target it could be decisive.
> David Griffin wrote:
> A single fighter group does make a nifty PDS, but
According to the published rules (FB1 p.6), the fighters only have to be
within 6mu of the missile salvo at the end of the fighters' secondary move in
order to engage the salvo. No need to guess.
Regards,
I thought he meant if you are screening a ship. You have to guess which ship
to screen. If you are just flying escort, you have to place the fighter within
6mu of where you expect the missiles to be. If you are willing to spend
endurance, then you need to be within 18mu of where you think the missiles
will be. Of course, if the ships you are protecting are flying faster than 24,
screening is your only option for all but fast fighters.
-----
Brian Bell
-----
> -----Original Message-----
> --- Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> wrote:
I sit corrected!
G'day Brian,
> OK. Where is the balance point?
As dumb as it sounds (and I can here Oerjan rolling his eyes already) I'd say
it depends on the way you play;) If you're apt to spread your fighters out
then the balance could be higher than if you're more a "pack hunter".
Against FSE I'd say about 4 groups, against NSL/ESU (sorry very little
experience with NAC) I'd say it'd be 5 fighters before I'd start wanting a
carrier on my side, with home designed fleets it'd probably be a bit higher
again.
> How would you read the situation?
Depends how you want to use them. Even one is useful defensively, but I
probably wouldn't use less than 3 in an offensive sense.
> How many are too many as to be overpowering
Well it does depend on the PDS coverage, but probably 6+ if ship books
and
moderate sized fleet (with only 1 or 2 CE) about 9+ for the home design
ships we usually run.
Cheers
Beth
From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil>
> How would you read the situation? How many fighter groups are too weak
Even a few fighter groups are useful on the defence.
As for overwhelming - as long as you have at least 2/3 of the
opposition's fighters, you should be OK. Less, and you will get creamed in the
Fighter to Fighter combats. But if you can just delay his fighters so they
don't come in at the same time as the incoming missiles, and you have a
reasonable defence net (and you're using fighter morale) then you should be
OK.
I don't find the FB1 designs too low on PDS. But that's because I include at
least 1 specialised ADAF ship per 2 capitals or 3 cruisers. I mainly play ESU
or NSL, if I was using NAC Furious, I'd up the
On 11-Jul-01 at 04:12, Alan and Carmel Brain
(aebrain@austarmetro.com.au) wrote: > From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)"
<Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil>
> > How would you read the situation? How many fighter groups are too
One thing I like to point out to my opponents who complain about fighters. One
fighters squadron masses the same as 9 PDS's,
or 8 and a ADFC. This doesn't help much in a one-off, but in
a game where you don't face random ships every time it can make a big
difference.