Using crew size as your boarding factors does work, but in FTFB you have a LOT
more boarding factors than MT, so the difference between a light cruiser & a
heavy cruiser is usually overwhelming. Law of averages kicks small ships in
the teeth.
'Neath Southern Skies
http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/
*****
T'was brillig, & the slithy toves, Did gyre & gimle in the wabe. All mimsy
were the borogroves, And mome raths outgrabe.
- Lewis Carroll "Through the Looking Glass".
[quoted original message omitted]
I like it - very nice indeed...
First question - what have you done about BP Factors under the Fleet
Book? My thought is to tie it directly to Crew Factor.
Perhaps a total Marine/Security Factor equal to current Crew Factor, of
which only half could be sent to Board an Enemy vessel. (or remove the
artificial one-half limitation altogether). Maybe is should only be
half of crew factor.
Second, how do transported Marine forces translate into Defensive factors. I
don't know about you, but anyone boarding my troop ship is in for a world of
hurt, especially if they don't realize it's a troop ship.
Fifth, (third sir!) uhhh, third - How about that 'prize crew' thing?
Does it reduce my BP Factors, how about my ship's crew factors. How do BP
casualties tie in to crew casualties.
Hit-and Run Raids and Targeting.
First off, Targeting. This is basically allowing an objective to be
declared. Roll a die. On 1-5, the die was ineffective. on 6 the
objective was achieved and reroll. Only on the reroll are normal combat
casualties counted. (i.e., after the objective was achieved)
Hit and run Raids
Take BPs and declare their objective to be the damage/destruction of a
specific ship system, instead of inflicting casualties. Teams on Hit and Run
Raids are the last to take casualties from normal combat (The standard
boarding parties can form a convincing diversion).
Attacking Raiding Parties Every 6 the defender rolls may be used so
specifically target ONE
hit-and
run party, otherwise the 2 casualties must be taken from other BPs first.
Now we just need a way to board the ship when things are still hot. How about
boarding cutter? Basically a missile with guys in it. Launch it, move it
(haven't decided on speed), if you end within 6", regardless of speed or
facing, you close and board (much like the missile on terminal attack run). Of
course you are still subject to PDS fire, and if you miss you are hanging out
in open space just waiting to blasted to pieces, and
any old class-1 beam is probably up to the job, but that's why you are
careful and plan ahead.
Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com> on 11/06/98 05:58:17 AM
Please respond to FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
To: FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
cc: (bcc: Jared E Noble/AAI/ARCO)
Subject: RE: FT : EW & Boarding Parties
> Using crew size as your boarding factors does work, but in FTFB you
I drafted these alternate BP rules a while ago. They give the little guy a
slightly bigger chance...
Alternate Boarding Rules
Although the boarding rules from MT provide a simple and quick method of
resolving such actions, I believe that an alternate set of rules can do so
with no additional complexity, more "realism," and taking into account the new
core systems rules. Using the old system, any BFs that were severely
outnumbered could not possibly win, nor could they hope to inflict any
casualties. Even a two vs. four situation was virtually hopeless for the
defenders, contrary to the example in MT. Boarding actions take place after
Step 9: Ships Fire in the sequence of play. To be eligible for a boarding
action, the ships in question must be within 6" and have a difference in
velocity no greater than one. If using the Cinematic Movement System, the
course may vary by no more than one clock face than that of the target ship,
or, if using the Vector Movement System, by no more than 30ø off that of the
target vessel. Each BF is assigned to either offensive of defensive status.
Offensive BFs are those that will assault the enemy ship, and defensive ones
will defend their own. Any ship assaulted by enemy BFs will have a boarding
action. Both offensive and defensive players roll one die for each BF, and
score it in
the same manner as a beam weapon, including re-rolls on a 6. The result
is the number of casualties inflicted on the opposing force. For example, if
two defensive BFs were assaulted by four offensive BFs, they would roll two
and four dice respectively. If the rolls were 2 and 5 for the defenders,
and 1, 4, 3, and 6 (re-roll of 4), the casualties would be 1 and 4
respectively. The defenders have died gloriously, but at least they took a
"bad guy" down with them. If, after casualties have been removed, there are
still BFs on both sides, another round of combat will ensue on the following
turn. A ship could potentially be in contest for some time, with both players
making an effort to reinforce their side in the intervening turn. The
defending player has the option of giving up a core system instead of a
casualty. The effects of giving up the system are exactly the same as if it
has failed a threshold check, with the exception of the power core. The power
core will not explode (unless that is the assault team's
objective), but simply acts as if it had been dumped upon a roll of 5-6
(FB pg. 5). For example, a defender with two BFs takes two casualties from
offensive forces. Confident that he can get reinforcements from friendly ships
next turn, he removes one BF and gives up life support. The other player rolls
one die (as if life support had failed) and gets a two. Whatever happens, the
defender had better hope that the action is resolved within the next two
turns. Note that with this system, a ship can drop off an assault force and
then thrust away to do other things. Likewise, a defender, who has any
capacity to do so, can limp closer to friendly forces in hopes of help.
One other question about Boarding Operations. When during the turn do you
resolve them? Obviously after Movement, but exactly where?
Heres the Post-Movement turn sequence taken from the Fleet Book:
-Allocate Missiles and Fighters
-Point Defense Fire
-Missile and Fighter Attacks
-Ships Fire
-Turn End
Now, since I'm a proponent of some sort of useful boarding cutter (so
simplify hot-action boardings) It would seem to make sense that is
should
be handled as fighters - Allocate/PDS/Board. But after that? If I send
my troops to board this turn and they successfully penetrate your defenses and
take your ship this turn (or as MT suggests, always resolve boarding actions
in a single turn) did it occur before your ship's firing phase came up? My
reaction is no, but I wanted other's input. If, as you suggest and I'm leaning
towards, boarding operations can span multiple turns, the contested ship would
remain in the hands of the defenders and continue to move and fire normally
until the defenders were defeated in the Turn End phase, (actually I'm
thinking of inserting a 'Resolve Boarding actions)
phase to the sequence - keeping Turn End phase for strictly clean-up
stuff). Does that sound right?
Come to think of it, could PDS be used against your 'normal' boarding actions?
(guys jumping across in PA or whatever) I don't think the PDS should be as
effective as it is vs fighters, but something seems in order.
Count your Boarding force as Screen level 2 vs PDS - each hit destroys 1
BF? (no they are not screened, but they are exceptionally small and
semi-dispersed). BTW the entire complement of Boarding attack from a
particular ship would be considered a single target for the PDS.
One other thing. When a prize crew takes a ship, what can they do with it?
Maneuver? I think so
FTL? I'd still say yes, but with some delay (I don't think it should work to
FTL out in the midst of a battle...but I'm wavering on this one
Operate defensive systems? I think PDS is OK (very highly automated), ADFC I'm
doubtful about as it
relates to intra-ship communication -unless you commandeered 2 enemy
ships. Screens just work.
Damage control? Not with the prize crew, but maybe if you wanted to transfer
some of your DCPs
Offensive weapons? No, not in the course of a single game, and not with the
prize crew.
Anything else?
Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com> on 11/06/98 05:58:17 AM
Please respond to FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
To: FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
cc: (bcc: Jared E Noble/AAI/ARCO)
Subject: RE: FT : EW & Boarding Parties
> Using crew size as your boarding factors does work, but in FTFB you
I drafted these alternate BP rules a while ago. They give the little guy a
slightly bigger chance...
Alternate Boarding Rules
Although the boarding rules from MT provide a simple and quick method of
resolving such actions, I believe that an alternate set of rules can do so
with no additional complexity, more "realism," and taking into account the new
core systems rules. Using the old system, any BFs that were severely
outnumbered could not possibly win, nor could they hope to inflict any
casualties. Even a two vs. four situation was virtually hopeless for the
defenders, contrary to the example in MT. Boarding actions take place after
Step 9: Ships Fire in the sequence of play. To be eligible for a boarding
action, the ships in question must be within 6" and have a difference in
velocity no greater than one. If using the Cinematic Movement System, the
course may vary by no more than one clock face than that of the target ship,
or, if using the Vector Movement System, by no more than 30ø off that of the
target vessel. Each BF is assigned to either offensive of defensive status.
Offensive BFs are those that will assault the enemy ship, and defensive ones
will defend their own. Any ship assaulted by enemy BFs will have a boarding
action. Both offensive and defensive players roll one die for each BF, and
score it in
the same manner as a beam weapon, including re-rolls on a 6. The result
is the number of casualties inflicted on the opposing force. For example, if
two defensive BFs were assaulted by four offensive BFs, they would roll two
and four dice respectively. If the rolls were 2 and 5 for the defenders,
and 1, 4, 3, and 6 (re-roll of 4), the casualties would be 1 and 4
respectively. The defenders have died gloriously, but at least they took a
"bad guy" down with them. If, after casualties have been removed, there are
still BFs on both sides, another round of combat will ensue on the following
turn. A ship could potentially be in contest for some time, with both players
making an effort to reinforce their side in the intervening turn. The
defending player has the option of giving up a core system instead of a
casualty. The effects of giving up the system are exactly the same as if it
has failed a threshold check, with the exception of the power core. The power
core will not explode (unless that is the assault team's
objective), but simply acts as if it had been dumped upon a roll of 5-6
(FB pg. 5). For example, a defender with two BFs takes two casualties from
offensive forces. Confident that he can get reinforcements from friendly ships
next turn, he removes one BF and gives up life support. The other player rolls
one die (as if life support had failed) and gets a two. Whatever happens, the
defender had better hope that the action is resolved within the next two
turns. Note that with this system, a ship can drop off an assault force and
then thrust away to do other things. Likewise, a defender, who has any
capacity to do so, can limp closer to friendly forces in hopes of help.
> Jared E Noble" <JNOBLE2@mail.aai.arco.com> wrote:
> First question - what have you done about BP Factors under the Fleet
One BPF per crew factor, just like one DCP per crew factor.
> Second, how do transported Marine forces translate into Defensive
This problem is little more dicey. Obviously, the entire carried force connot
possibly react to the boarders. In fact, it's likely that very few will be
able to get ready in time. I would put an upper limit of 1 BPF per 1 mass of
troop space, but even that seems a bit high.
> Fifth, (third sir!) uhhh, third - How about that 'prize crew' thing?
Does
> it reduce my BP Factors, how about my ship's crew factors. How do BP
Like DCPs, each BPF only represents a few memebers of each CF, so when the BPF
dies, it doesn't inhibit the "ship operation" part of that CF; you just can't
use it as a BPF any more.
...and yes, if you were to put a prize crew on a captured ship, those CFs and
their respective BPFs would be removed from the parent ship. If some of the
CFs moved had their corresponding BPFs killed earlier, then they are still
gone.
> Hit-and Run Raids and Targeting.
[snipped "hit and run" stuff]
I don't think that hit and run raids against FT ships would be that effective.
It's not like you can "transport" your BPFs where ever they need to go within
a ship. They have to enter at a point on the hull, and the defenders will have
a pretty good idea where that will be. Getting from the breach point to a
specific objective is going to be a nightmare on a defended ship with all its
compartmental pressure doors sealed.
> Now we just need a way to board the ship when things are still hot.
How
> about boarding cutter? Basically a missile with guys in it. Launch
This is good, but I suspect that it's a little too specific in its use to be
terribly usefull on a warship that wasn't specifically designed for boarding
actions. Given the number of boarding actions that I've actually seen in
games, I'm not sure if anyone would bother. Most engagements I've seen end in
destruction rather than capture.
You should add if all 3 core systems are lost, then the ship has been captured
anyway. This will prevent just giving away core systems to increase your
chance of killing the boarders outright.
'Neath Southern Skies
http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/
*****
T'was brillig, & the slithy toves, Did gyre & gimle in the wabe. All mimsy
were the borogroves, And mome raths outgrabe.
- Lewis Carroll "Through the Looking Glass".
> -----Original Message-----
> Jared E Noble" <JNOBLE2@mail.aai.arco.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
> Second, how do transported Marine forces translate into Defensive
This problem is little more dicey. Obviously, the entire carried force connot
possibly react to the boarders. In fact, it's likely that very few will be
able to get ready in time. I would put an upper limit of 1 BPF per 1 mass of
troop space, but even that seems a bit high.
> Fifth, (third sir!) uhhh, third - How about that 'prize crew' thing?
Does
> it reduce my BP Factors, how about my ship's crew factors. How do BP
Like DCPs, each BPF only represents a few memebers of each CF, so when the BPF
dies, it doesn't inhibit the "ship operation" part of that CF; you just can't
use it as a BPF any more.
...and yes, if you were to put a prize crew on a captured ship, those CFs and
their respective BPFs would be removed from the parent ship. If some of the
CFs moved had their corresponding BPFs killed earlier, then they are still
gone.
> Hit-and Run Raids and Targeting.
[snipped "hit and run" stuff]
I don't think that hit and run raids against FT ships would be that effective.
It's not like you can "transport" your BPFs where ever they need to go within
a ship. They have to enter at a point on the hull, and the defenders will have
a pretty good idea where that will be. Getting from the breach point to a
specific objective is going to be a nightmare on a defended ship with all its
compartmental pressure doors sealed.
Well, one thing I was thinking is that you try to control your initial point
of entry, following the logic in the fleet book that pretty much all
systems have an 'external' component. 'See the big sensor platform -
that's your target - prepare for hull breach within 10 meters and knock
that thing out' Obviously this means that they target is declared in the
initial round of attack. The rule to save the Raiding team as last casualty is
only to represent the other forces doing their darndest to protect them, while
allowing the enemy to bypass that rule with the roll of a 6 reflects them
working around the defenders. I agree that entering at one point and advancing
internally to a distant point would be a pain.
BTW, this is one of the reasons I would expressly disallow hit-and-run
against Core systems.
> Now we just need a way to board the ship when things are still hot.
How
> about boarding cutter? Basically a missile with guys in it. Launch
What I was envisioning was, or course, a purpose built boarding ship...Carry a
few boarding cutters as well as a bunch of marines to try to overcome the
defensive personnel of a ship that hasn't already been reduced to swiss
cheese. Maybe even 'passenger' space to have extra crew for those prize ships
you so want to capture...
I partly feel the reason that boarding is so rare in FT is that the rules
conspire to make it so. In order to even think about boarding the enemy
has to be practically crippled to begin with - pretty much weaponless
with no drives. The way FT works damage (which I generally like, BTW) means
that a ship that has taken that kind of beating is usually a point or 2 away
from total destruction.
If you have a way to start boarding actions before the ship is ready for the
scrapyard, then they may become more useful. If you have some midway
flexibility in terms of what you can do with boarding actions, (not just
all-or nothing as it currently stands) then that may help too. And if
the mechanic is kept simple then they may prove to be fun without adding time
or complexity. An example of flexible but non-trivial mechanics is SFB,
where you have to take your defensive factors and allocate them to the
various systems they are guarding - if you don't take the time to do
this and someone attacks, they have free reign. So even if boarding actions
are never used you are wasting your time on the off chance it might. Which is
very unfortunate, as in most games I played we just declared that there would
be no boarding because we wanted to actually finish a game. With the ideas I
posted, at least in intent, if nobody boards, there is Nothing
extra to do. If they do, a few quick die-rolls resolves it and you're
done. Even in ship design, there are no extra steps for most ships, just those
who wish to carry extra boarding equipment and personnel.
> Schoon
> One other question about Boarding Operations. When during the turn do
Sorry, must have missed that one...
> Come to think of it, could PDS be used against your 'normal' boarding
Fair enough
<SNIP replies about what prize crews can do>
I pretty much agree with you about what prize crews can and cannot do, though
I still think defensive systems would be more usable than other
systems (especially screens) but that may be mostly a gut-reaction
thing.