G'day, I've recently finished reading a series of journal articles and
conference presentations on human germline engineering, which suggest that
its going to be all too real within the next 10-20 years. Given the
recent discussion on cramming crews into spaceships, and the fact that I
personally wouldn't relish the thought of being dressed in power armour and
dropped from space, I got to wondering about the use of genetic engineering in
the forces of the future. Would germline engineering be used to increase the
pool of people who are "different" (as Tom put it) and so can take unusual
stresses more or less in their stride? Maybe such "enhanced"
individuals would make up the body of troops/crews used in really high
stress situations and you'd have good old joe bloggs every where else, or
maybe the forces we'd see in the field would all be "enhanced"....
Anyway just chewin' the cud.
Happy gaming,
Beth
Ow, my cud! (there was no way I could resist that)
Seriously, the major sticky points nowadays is the religio-ethical side
of mucking about in the gene pool. Those concerns aside, some monolithic
states have already shown willingness to 'play God' (e.g. the East German
woMEN's
olympic teams) so I see nothing (save expense and know-how) to stop GZG
states from doing the same. To use broad stroke (non politically correct)
extrapolations from our recent history.
ESU- Genetic fixing, and manipulation for the greater good of the state.
NAC- Genetic fixing, and manipulation because we cannot allow the Euries
to get an advantage over us in genetic manipulation.
FSE- Providing technology and equipment to perform the above to small
states/ and or the highest bidder.
NSL- Original home of the Ubermensch, 'nuff said.
Nihon- A mixture of altruism, profit and creepy hive minded Japanese
bland conformity.
FCT- A mixture of altruism, profit, and creepy laid-back beautiful
people aesthetic standards.
Islamic Fed- Forbidden by Islamic Law (they buy theirs fom the FCT, FSE,
or Nihonjin on the sly...)
Sa'vasku- How long before they're able to offer their own genesculpting
services (a generation or two?)
Kra'vak- Batle is the ultimate test to do so with that kind of aid is
unthinkable. Or is it... "k'kah sub56 you will submit to the high g force
modification therapies for the good of the clan..."
Taking the cud, passing it on...
Gene
> ----------
> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Beth Fulton wrote:
growing altered humans is going to get real easy and real soon (and probably
real illegal). i can envisage a future where, rather than
enlisting citizens in your army, you just grow some gorilla-human
modified hybrid (big and tough but smart and agile, just not given to thinking
politics), train it with the old neurolinguopsychohypnochemoelectrognostic
methods and give it a gun. and give the officers little AI boxes to do tactics
(like those little round computers in buck rogers). jobs demanding
real thinking - staff, intel and special forces, mainly, would use real
-
if modified - humans. likewise, your navy will actually be crewed by
powder and grease monkeys: think how useful a prehensile tail would be in zero
g! hey, why stop there: two prehensile tails ("and here we have my
finest creation: a monkey with four asses" - mephisto)! there will be
crew country, officer country and human country, where the six or seven humans
who actually direct the ship live. it's all true, i swear!
> Anyway just chewin' the cud.
well i've just figured out what my 4th year project is... MWAHAHAHA!
Tom
This all reminds me of the Sierra game CyberStorm.
They have genetic construct mech pilots called bioderms. they can be trained
and drugged to increase their performance and abilities but it builds up
toxins which can kill them
> growing altered humans is going to get real easy and real soon (and
The ACE pilot bioderm in the game is a chimp.
Tony spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Tom ment different in attitude. Certainly when you try out for
That's the one. Not claustrophobic, very stable, able to handle cramped
quarters, isolation from friends and family, stress.
I don't know that genetic-engineering is going to help you
> here but it might be able to take a 6'6" submarinia and stop him
Well, making 'average size' submariners or space crew makes sense. Also
enhancing reflexes, hearing, sight, etc. Now, another point is that there may
be a physical component of stress reactions. Genetic engineering may reduce
that so that we actually are calmer (less adrenalin or something). That would
be an asset in dealing with (a la Ren and Stimpy)..."Space Madness".
/************************************************
> G'day,
Personally I can't really see this becoming widespread. Even if we are talking
major time in the future when the human genome is mapped and all ORFs (genes)
are assigned. Form there we have to go to the genomics guys to tell us what
genes are on during all stages that we are interested in. Say, for example we
want to 'build' a better soldier. First you have to
know exactly what genes you need to turn on/off and or regulate to what
level (e.g.,. Androgen Receptor - to make a bigger better body- during
foetal development, or HOX genes -increased blood cell/immune response-
during heamatopoeitic development), second you have to know how regulation of
these genes will affect expression of other gens then you have to stat
worrying about how the genes are transcribed (proteins made). Cutting a lot of
steps out, are you making your super soldier in artificial womb, or
are you using wombs ex-vivo, or are you using a traditional implantation
technology, if you are using the latter how do you control maternal affects,
basically you can't so you have to resort to some type of artificial
technology. The biggest crux of all of this, that is greater than the
scientific and technological advances requires before this can even get off
the ground, is cost. My guess is tailor 'making' a human is going to be
prohibitively costly to waste on 'grunts', even
'super-grunts'.
However, if you look at alternatives I believe they may become a much more
reasonable alternative.
Technology such as nuclear transfer couples with targeted gene regulation
(anti-sense regulators, up/down regulation of steroid hormone receptors/
second messengers) offers a much more cost-effective and potentially
reliable method of 'growing' the bodies you need. This coupled with advancing
knowledge in educational and psychological conditioning may
realistically (and cost-effectively) produce a disposable readily
generated pool of troops which may be both psychologically and physically
'adapted' to either combat or harsh environment stresses.
OK, so this is just my opinion, I could be just talking out of my arse
though :-)
> Stuart Murray wrote:
> Personally I can't really see this becoming widespread. Even if we
Then again you could ignore the factors, or use them to sway the probabilities
to produce a large batch of raw material which then is screened or trained to
proper levels. Much like the system is today, except that you would increase
the baseline of the material entering the system. I could see creche type
situations where dozens of clones are trained in the arts of war... Hmmm
sounds alot like that movie Soldier coming out...
--Binhan
> At 06:51 PM 10/22/98 -0400, you wrote:
Judging by your.sig, I think that even your arse would have a much more
valid opinion than my most carefully considered and crafted arguments
on the subject. :-)
> OK, so this is just my opinion, I could be just talking out of my arse
smurray@aecom.yu.edu
> Bronx
> Stuart Murray wrote:
(snip of stuff I didn't know anything about)
Binhan then responded:
> Then again you could ignore the factors, or use them to sway the
Hmmm
> sounds alot like that movie Soldier coming out...
If you're ready for a serious read, try Donald Kingsbury's book
_Courtship
Rite_. You will probably have to read it twice or more to catch
everything (and if not, don't tell me). In a simplified form, the concept is:
Each clan is tied in with an occupation, and success at that occupation means
you get to breed. The clans who are Porters tend to get strength and
endurance. The clans who are rulers tend to develop foresight. The clans of
warriors tend to develop tactical and strategic skill.
> At 09:28 22/10/98 +1000, you wrote:
Tom ment different in attitude. Certainly when you try out for sub service
they are looking at how you react to living in a small confined space for
days on end. I don't know that genetic-engineering is going to help you
here but it might be able to take a 6'6" submarinia and stop him belting his
head on bulkheads all the time. You might be able to use to ensure that people
are all the same size (no shortys like me) so that any recruit will fit your
standard mass produced PA suit (the old army saying of one size fits all has
just come true by making everyone fit the same size) so all you need to do is
select those people who don't mind being dropped from orbit.
In a message dated 98-10-22 19:59:20 EDT, you write:
<< If you're ready for a serious read, try Donald Kingsbury's book
_Courtship
Rite_. You will probably have to read it twice or more to catch
everything (and if not, don't tell me). In a simplified form, the concept is:
Each clan is tied in with an occupation, and success at that occupation means
you get to breed. The clans who are Porters tend to get strength and
endurance. The clans who are rulers tend to develop foresight. The clans of
warriors tend to develop tactical and strategic skill. >> You might want to
read the Dune books, the imperial troops, the Sardarkar were originaly
prisoners on a planet with hostel lifeforms that would kill off a large part
of the original population. Darwin has the rite idea. My $.02 Bye Stephen
That's not what my friends say!
Stuart Murray
Department of Molecular Genetics Einstein College Of Medicine 1300 Morris Park
Avenue Bronx NY 10461
tel: 718 430 4289
> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Tony Christney wrote:
> At 06:51 PM 10/22/98 -0400, you wrote:
smurray@aecom.yu.edu
> >Bronx