[FT] 3arc B1 and PDS

What should the mass/points cost be for a 3arc B1 and/or a 3arc PDS ?

> ...or a 3arc PDS ?

I've never thought of the fighters or missles as being from a particular arc,
though there is a tendency to match them up to the side of a ship base.

I also can't find anything indicating the attacks come from a particular arc
in the books. Am I, as usual, missing something?

The_Beast

> On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 09:31:03AM -0500, Doug Evans wrote:

> I've never thought of the fighters or missles as being from a

Fleet Book 2 has (Phalon) PDS-capable weapons with restricted firing
arcs. For this reason (and if you're using the beta-test fighter rules),
it now matters...

R

> Fleet Book 2 has (Phalon) PDS-capable weapons with restricted firing

Roger, Roger.

Currently, the PDS capability isn't necessarily restricted, but might be under
the beta rules, right? Sounds like a tricky thing to cost out, though.

Now that I am understanding, I'll sign out with:

Over, under.

The_Beast

From: <laserlight@quixnet.net>

> What should the mass/points cost be for a 3arc B1 and/or a 3arc PDS ?
 Pi/(2 * e)

> I also can't find anything indicating the attacks come from a

You're missing that it's not physically possible for a weapon to have
full-sphere coverage (unless you can shoot thru your own ship).  And you
didn't read my mind to know that I'm working on a wet-navy conversion.
(And since I'm also working on FMA Sheep, you should be *grateful* that you're
not reading my mind).

I assume missles are generaly forward fired if symbol faces forward. Fighters
always launch oo to the fore of the carrier.

Roger Burton West <roger@firedrake.org> wrote:On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at
> 09:31:03AM -0500, Doug Evans wrote:

> I've never thought of the fighters or missles as being from a

Fleet Book 2 has (Phalon) PDS-capable weapons with restricted firing
arcs. For this reason (and if you're using the beta-test fighter rules),
it now matters...

R

Charles Lee schrieb:
> I assume missles are generaly forward fired if symbol faces forward.
Fighters always launch oo to the fore of the carrier.

Well, the discussion is on the arc where they are supposed to hit the target,
to relate to the target's PDS capability.

Yours seems a useful assumption in the case of SML's, I suppose, but do the
missiles actually 'launch' from the point they are deployed? *shrug*

Fighters and multi-turn missiles are a bit of a different case. Fighters
aren't even necessarily moving in a direct line, if you assume their
difficulty to be hit can be attributed to evasive actions.

Chris:
> You're missing that it's not physically possible for a weapon to have

True, but I've tended to think of 360x360 weapons to be covered by
undetermined PBS: small enough to extend/swivel, single generator with
multiple emitters, gift of higher beings...

It's all FM.

> (And since I'm also working on FMA Sheep, you should be *grateful* that

Prolly, but it would make up, in small fashion, for the fact that I won't be
there to see it unveiled. Think of the periods of 'I know what you're
going to face...' smugness every time someone mentions ECC. ;->=

'The horror, the horror...'

The_Beast

> >I also can't find anything indicating the attacks come from a

> (And since I'm also working on FMA Sheep, you should be *grateful*

   Well, if you're modelling wet-navy ships, I would just make the 3 arc
B1's
 and PDS' be 1/2 the cost and weight, but require them to be bought in
pairs.
 This nicely mimics the port/starboard division of ships and gives you
the same
 effectiveness as the same cost+weight of all-arc weapons.

Grant:
> Well, if you're modelling wet-navy ships, I would just make the 3

One fairly slight difference would be with threshold checks, IF Chris is using
them.

However, if you're facing attacks on different PDS's, don't you gain
significant benefits?

The_Beast

> Grant:

True, multiple attacks from different sides would give you a bonus. The
increased number of systems does make you somewhat more vulnerable to
thresholds. Hmm, to keep it reasonably simple, I would do something like this:

        3 arc PDS/B1:  Mass 2/3 (round *up*) Cost 2

You could install 3 for the cost and weight of 2 all arc weapons, with the
multiple attack advantage offset by reduced coverage through some arcs. If you
only bought two though, you're paying more in weight and cost than 1 all arc,
and less cost than 2 all arc, which seems about right.

I would allow them to cover overlapping arcs too. The added benefit to extra
firepower in those arcs should be plenty balanced by the lack of coverage
elsewhere.

> What should the mass/points cost be for a 3arc B1 and/or a 3arc PDS ?

AEB said:
> Pi/(2 * e)

which works out to.58 or so. Any reason for picking that, or just Zen?

> (And since I'm also working on FMA Sheep, you should be *grateful* that

The Beast said:
> Prolly, but it would make up, in small fashion, for the fact that I

We're considering the need for a land dreadnought, fuel air explosives, or
a saint, in order to deal with not-a-nuke-or-elder-god.  My son Joshua
suggested we could handily comnbine all three, with a Pope-ane tank.

> --- "laserlight@quixnet.net" <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:

> What should the mass/points cost be for a 3arc B1 and/or a 3arc PDS ?

A strict interpolation based on the consistent numbers of the larger
B's:
1-arc = 4/9
2-arc = 5/9
3-arc = 6/9 = 2/3
4-arc = 7/9
5-arc = 8/9

However, if you are going to severely limit 6-arc weapons overall, you
can assume that the 1 MASS, 3 PV values apply to a 5-arc system, then
get:
1-arc = 4/8 = 1/2
2-arc = 5/8, fudged to 2/3
3-arc = 6/8 = 3/4
4-arc = 7/8
5-arc = 1

Then season to taste:)

J

From: <laserlight@quixnet.net>

> > What should the mass/points cost be for a 3arc B1 and/or a 3arc PDS

Yes.

OK, the long answer: 0.5 is too little. 1 is way too much.
2/3 seemed about right, but when I did a single small playtest, was
overpriced,
so I split the difference with 1/2. I'd even say 2/3 for B-1/3s (but not
PDS) is still more appropriate.

It was also a comment on the difficulties of non-integer costs.

> On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 10:41:02AM +1000, Alan and Carmel Brain wrote:

> Feel free to simplify(?) the result to 7/12.

1/sqrt(3) is a much better approximation to Pi/(2*e) than 7/12 is.

BTW Alan, did your playtest take into account the benefits paired 3-arc
PD
weapons gain relative to single 6-arc PD weapons when the ship is
attacked from more than one direction, and if so how?

Regards,

From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <roger@firedrake.org>

> BTW Alan, did your playtest take into account the benefits paired

I only did a few exercises on graphpaper - and with 6 or less PDS on
each ship.
This way I could compare costs of 1/2, 2/3, 3/4 which I thought were the
boundaries of the solution.

Against fighters, a cost of 3/4 is too much, the advantage is low.
Against SMs, it all depends on how lucky/skilful the players are,
it makes it even more of a crap-shoot than before. But I did assume
all-forward arcs vs SMs rather than splitting them left/right.

I used a random-number generator (actually some dice and a GW scatter
die) to pick the SM target area's difference from the 'optimum' that I'd
picked,

> It was also a comment on the difficulties of non-integer costs.

but they become integer costs if you buy enough of them.

> But you're right about Zen and Transcendental meditation - figured

<grin> If *I* said "I think it's pi/5", everyone would know that could
be charitably described as Zen. But if you or Oerjan pick a number like that,
there might be a reason.

> I only did a few exercises on graphpaper...

Damn, I thought it was all said tongue-in-cheek!

The_Beast

> From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <roger@firedrake.org>

   How would you handle the fractions/rounding?  I'm thinking that the
 differences are fairly minor, and while using 2/3 mass, cost 2 (round
up any leftover fractions) may result in some slight differences that they
would be pretty much indistinguishable on the table.