re: discussion of place names and names for the populace.
I doubt all NAC citizens or charges will think of themselves as Anglos. South
and Central America? Quebec? Canada? Mexico? More likely people will be
"citizens of the NAC" but have regional names.
Quebecois will still be Quebecois and will be still complaining about being
beaten at the plains of Abraham (second version, during the pacification of
North America), about being distinct, about needing powers to protect cultural
integrity, etc.
Western farmers will still think the NAC has too much government, as will
plenty of folks in the US.
Native North and South Americans will still think the Europeans are invaders
and conquerors.
Etc.
These kind of national rivalries won't go away, but like Quebec's relations
with Canada, will be softened by economic prosperity and by some devolution of
power to the local communities.
How we think of ourselves is not always the way we're seen. Most Americans
view themselves differently than most Europeans see them (I believe) and most
Canadians believe they have a certain character, whether or not it is so (we
want it to be so).
The description of the FSE in Jon's books (written by an Anglian I notice)
reflect a cultural predjudice up front. In French, it would be Etats Federal
Europa (gender?). In Italian, something quite similar sounding I believe
(thanks Karl Heinz!). I believe most of the languages of these countries would
end up calling themselves the EFE. FSE is just an anglicism (or is that
Anglianism?) of the correct naming.
This recalls that old discussion about how military units would be named in
the Anglian system. I liked some of the suggestions.
Things like: The Duke of Windsors Own Hussars The Royal Canadian Regiment His
Majesty's Own Coldstream Gaurds The Earl of Lancaster's Loyal Amish Irregulars
<okay, this is a wee in joke for attendees of GZGECC>
and the best suggestion I ever heard <Don't groan!>
The King's Own Memphis Rifles
I think one interesting question regarding peerage is: How many Dukes', Earls,
Baronets, etc. are there in the British system today? How many more would
likely be created to cover the "New Colonies". I like the idea of a Duke of
Windsor. Maybe the governance is still in the hands of the people, but
peerages served a purpose in the old days and they might well make a comeback
in a NAC that owns all of North and South America...
> ----- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -----
[snip]
> These kind of national rivalries won't go away, but like Quebec's
be Etats Federal Europa (gender?). In Italian, something quite
> similar sounding I believe (thanks Karl Heinz!) . I believe most of
[snip]
> comeback in a NAC that owns all of North and South America...
Indeed, and without wanting to offend anyone, the GZG future history is
heavily anglo-centric.
I have considerable problems believing that the NAC could integrate Latin
America as smoothly as the GZG history makes it out, especially given
the superiority complex many (real, present-day) Anglos have over the
Latinos, which is unlikely to go away, and the long history of tensions
between North and South America. Plus, if the NAC has devolved power to local
communities and is something of a democracy, how come there is virtually no
trace of Spanish or Portuguese in the names of places, ships etc., both in the
official books and on the websites? After all, Latinos would be roughly half
the population of the NAC.
Greetings Karl Heinz
> -----Original Message-----
[snip]
> How we think of ourselves is not always the way we're seen. Most
and
> most Canadians believe they have a certain character, whether or not
[snip]
> This recalls that old discussion about how military units would be
You are still displaying Terra-centric thinking!
By 2135 the AC have moved thier main government body off Earth to Albion. And
there are people who have been born, grew up and died that have never
seen Earth first-hand. At some point, people will start to stop thinking
of Earth nations and start thinking in terms of the planet on which they were
born (Albion, Hadely's Hope, Kakisa, Merril's World, New Toledo, etc.). Thier
alliances will follow thier idea of home (Far Stars Union, Rim Worlds
Concordium, Rim Worlds, Confederacy, Alarishi Empire, etc.).
I would have expected most of the GZG nations to follow the lead of the NAC
and NSL in changing thier names to match the people they represent and not the
geographic location on Earth where they started. The ESU was the first in
expanding to enclude all of the Solar System in thier name (perhaps 'Solar' is
a bad translation and is more properly
'Stellar').
The LLAR, especially, would find little meaning in 'Latin American Republics',
other than nursing old wounds, since they have had no holdings on Earth since
2098. I would have expected a name change to something linke the 'League of
Latino Peoples' or if they still have organized themselves into republics on
thier colony worlds 'League of Latino Republics' or some such name. The FSE is
also outdated, unless the definition of 'Europe' has expanded. I would have
expected them to change to 'Federal Commonwealth States' or some other
derivitive. The PAU could stay the same, assuming that 'African' refers to
lineage rather than geography. IC is valid for the same reason. IF refres to a
belief system rather than to a geographic location. The Saeed Khalifate refers
to a ruling family, so is valid. The OU seems a little strange, unless they
specifically seek out woulds with large oceans and small contenients. Anyway
at this point I am rambling, but I hope that you get my point.
On the point of peerage, I doubt that there would be any given for the
(former) US territories. I think that it would be throwing gasoline (petrol)
on the fire of the second American Civil War to do so. I would suspect that
the people descended from citizens of the former US would, at best, tollerate
the monarchy (if it were maintained in the NAC), but would not embrace it.
Peerage on colony worlds, however, could be a way to encourage migration to
the primitave living conditions of new colonies. I.e. the first 100 colonist
families would be given inheritable lands on the new colonies and titles to
match (The Duke of Arabeth, Merril's World). Or perhaps peerage would be given
to the financial sponsors of a colony (Mr. Greene sponsors the transportation
to the colony would of New Toledo and is given a title on the world (Earl of
Laslands, New Toledo).
> rFrom: Brian_Bell@dscc.dla.mil
> You are still displaying Terra-centric thinking!
Good points
> I would have expected most of the GZG nations to follow the lead of >
the NAC and NSL in changing thier names to match the people they
> represent and not the geographic location on Earth where they
Except that name-giving is a quirky and unpredictable process.
And to a native German speaker, 'New Swabian League' sounds plain wrong, as
the Swabians are a rather small part of Germanyx and I see no way a union of
Germans, Austrians etc. could be named after them. Rather like calling the NAC
the 'New Yorkshire Confederacy'. I justify it to my mind with the argument
that the negotiations leading to the NSL were held in the colony city of Neu
Schwaben and the League was named after the place.
> The LLAR, especially, would find little meaning in 'Latin American
Except that simply 'Latino' would include Spanish and Portuguese
speakers from elsewhere (Europe, Africa and South East Asia/ FSE, PAU
and IC), and in a wider sense, Italians, French and Rumanians ( plus the
Vatican). So the 'American' may well be kept in the name, especially since the
NAC has dropped it.
Maybe in 2180, 'American' citizen will mean LLAR citizen ? ;-)
Gets ready to duck the Narn bats Karl Heinz
> On 11 Oct 2000 13:22 GMT KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de wrote:
> [...] name-giving is a quirky and unpredictable process.
> And to a native German speaker, 'New Swabian League' sounds plain
Rather like calling the NAC the 'New Yorkshire Confederacy'. <
I do wish you hadn't said that, Karl. You *know* Yorkshire considers itself
head, shoulders, torso and knees above the rest of the UK. Given half a
chance, that's exactly what they *would* want the NAC to be called... Don't go
putting ideas into their heads; Free CalTex was bad enough; I don't even want
to *think* about the Star Ridings of New Yorkshire...
Phil, reaching for the solvent to unstick tongue from cheek... <g>
> ----- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -----
> itself head, shoulders, torso and knees above the rest of the UK.
Just as the Swabians think of themselves related to other Germans, and just as
Bavarians, Saxons, people from Berlin or Hamburg, etc. think of themselves.
The only ones who are right are the Hamburg people, of course.
Guess where I live?
In message <13jLpi-1oO3JQC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com>
> KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de wrote:
[snip]
> And to a native German speaker, 'New Swabian League' sounds plain
> union of Germans, Austrians etc. could be named after them. Rather
[snip]
> Karl Heinz
Hmm... 'New Yorkshire Confederacy' - sounds like a good idea to me :-)
Snip
> And to a native German speaker, 'New Swabian League' sounds plain
> union of Germans, Austrians etc. could be named after them. Rather
I see no problem with this, except it would have to be a people's republic.
People's Republic of Yorkshire Confederacy, anyone.
I am sorry I had a hard day at work!
> On 11 Oct 2000 10:03 GMT, KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de wrote:
> I have considerable problems believing that the NAC could integrate
> between North and South America.
Oh, that's only the half of it. The idea that the US and Canada could be
combined in the future isn't that radical. That they could be combined under
the United Kingdom is laughable! *L* It's fun, but not at all serious.
> On 11 Oct 2000 13:22 GMT KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de wrote:
National Symbol: a flat cap above two crossed ferrets.... Not to mention that
traditional war cry of "Ecky Thump!"......
;-)
[snip]
> The description of the FSE in Jon's books (written by an Anglian I
We did actually explain this in the FSE fleet section of FB1.....
> [snip]
Of course it is! It was written by two Brits! (Myself for the basics, then a
lot fleshed out by Steve Blease) We never intended it to be a particularly
"accurate" prediction of future
politics (!) - it was written primarily to give a game universe in which
there were still many separate human states, most of whom
disliked/distrusted the others, thus giving an excuse for battles
between virtually any combination of fleets. I will admit that, in the back of
our minds, there was a desire to do something a little different from the
usual "Americans Rule the Galaxy" backgrounds rather prevalent in games at the
time.... <grin>
(Oh, and the Neu Swabian bit was Steve's - apparently he named it after
an
original Swabian League from sometime in the 1400s - sorry if it sounds
odd to German players, but the ship names etc, for the NSL mostly came from a
German customer (Karsten Strochsen, who got the FT503 named after him in
thanks!))
Jon (GZG)
> I have considerable problems believing that the NAC could integrate
> Absender: jon@gzg.com
of whom disliked/distrusted the others, thus giving an excuse for
> battles between virtually any combination of fleets.
No problem, really. We just sometimes take the GZG history too
seriously ;-)
Though I think you have reduced the number of independent powers
somewhat too drastically. India and China/Russia as independent powers
might have offered some extra opportunities to have interesting forces.
> I will admit that, in the back of our minds, there was a desire to
Fine with me
> (Oh, and the Neu Swabian bit was Steve's - apparently he named it
if it sounds odd to German players, but the ship names etc, for the > NSL
mostly came from a German customer (Karsten Strochsen, who got
> the FT503 named after him in thanks!))
I was always wondering about that one, as most of the others were
easily recognised as Imperial German / Austrian ship names.
Greetings Karl Heinz
> Ground Zero Games wrote:
> Jon Davis wrote:
> Ground Zero Games wrote:
They're not sausages - they're black puddings. A northern culinary
delight made from ... blood. One reason why a Yorkshireman (-woman)
should never be allowed in charge of the NAC (imagine the state banquets
...)
[ducks assorted brickbats incoming from north of the Midlands]
> You are still displaying Terra-centric thinking!
<snip>
> The EARTH is important!
Let's say the colony Hypothetica starts off with 1 million colonists in 2070.
Large families are highly valued so each couple has 8 children--1 every
2.5 years starting at age 20 (and we'll assume all colonists are 20 when they
arrive and none have their own kids). The incidence of twins, triplets, extra
kids above 8, etc, cancels out the effects of infant mortality. Everyone lives
to be 80. Immigration after initial colonization is negligible.
How many people are there in 2190?
The GZG Future History begins stellar colonization in 2069. It takes 70 years
for the population of Albion to equal (almost) the population of England. Now
admittedly, this was exceptional growth utilizing immigration and population
control. And it does not at that time equal the population of all of the NAC
holdings on Earth. It also does not state if the other colonies have similar
programs to increase population. This is the only reference that I have found
to the population of colonies compared to the population of Earth holdings.
I guess the shape of demographics depends on your idea of how much
colonization takes place.
My reading: Every major and most minor governments have begun colonization by
2075. We know that the AC (later NAC) used social engineering to bolster
population growth.
We know that starting in 2072/2075 the LLAR "looks
to space as a means of expansion". Much of this early LLAR colonization would
likely be from Central America which has become occupied by the AC. When the
LLAR loose all of their holdings on Earth, the government, and supporters flee
to the colony of Santa Rico. Now "supporters" could be read as just a few
thousand or as several million. It is possible that the NAC "allowed" those
wishing to immigrate from Central and South America to do so, leaving a more
loyal population in the conquered territories. This would require less
resources to govern. I could see similar exodus from other parts of the Earth
as hostilities climb. When Israel was nuked, I imagine that the IF found
immigration an attractive option (I believe the prevailing winds blow from the
Mediterranean across Israel toward the Arab countries). Noam's New Jordan is
an example of this. But I would think that it would be even wider spread than
Jordan. ESU has several reasons to colonize. First is population crowding.
Having swallowed the
Indian sub-continent, and already being comprised of
China, the ESU would have the greatest number of citizens and population
density. Putting its people on colonies would provide for a more productive
workforce and easier control (albeit through regional and local controlling
bodies). My reading of the GZG Future History is that by 2075, Earth has
become overcrowded and polluted. The number of colonization efforts launched
between 2069 and 2075 represent a mass exodus of earth. By mass exodus, I mean
at least 5% of the population
or ~ 400 million - 1 billion depending on the population
of the Earth at that time (population estimates for 2050 is between 8 billion
and 20 billion depending on
population controls -- see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/special_report/1999/06/99/world_populat
ion/
newsid_379000/379083.stm). By 2136, when the NAC
revise the constitution to recognize colonies as independent members, I would
say that the population of the combined colonies is at least 50% of Earth and
more likely 150% of Earth or more (the colonies would have encouraged
population growth, encouraged immigration, financial incentives, etc. while
the population on Earth would have just the opposite) Anyway, that is my read
on population in the GZG Future History.
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://www.ftsr.org/gzg/gzghist.html
-----
> -----Original Message-----
> What scares me is that I recall this reference. British humor
They were blackpudding my good man. Nothing to do with sausages. Only the
fines t pigs blood will do.
What is this, 'The Lets Knock Yorkshire mailing list'? :-)
Ferrets, flat caps and black pudding! You have forgotten clogs, Tetley tea
bags, bitter and bad cricket players!
Outside the lot of you! I'll not have my birthplace knocked like this.
I'll go away now.
> > Not to mention that traditional war cry of "Ecky Thump!"......
> What scares me is that I recall this reference. British humor
What about the "Eric Olthwaite" class cruiser?
Actually, last time I visited the Rels in Scarborough, I really enjoyed a
couple of slices of Black Pudding. Nothing like Blutwurst, which I didn't take
to at all.
> > Not to mention that traditional war cry of "Ecky Thump!"......
But has it been tested? ;-)
While on the "Ripping Yarns" references, I've always wanted to have a scenario
with an FT merchant called the "Greasy Bastard", hauling rubber goods and
things for the weekend between Sol and New Rangoon....
> Neil McGurk wrote:
> Outside the lot of you! I'll not have my birthplace knocked like this.
What? Who mentioned Teesside?
> Neil McGurk wrote:
> Self defense with sausages from "The Goodies" How old is THAT?
That's hardly indigenous Yorkshire food, mind you. I bet you got it from us,
back before you drove the good king Eric Bloodax out <g>
> What is this, 'The Lets Knock Yorkshire mailing list'? :-)
Yep :-) Last week 'twas the "Lets Knock America", but they're too big
so now we pick on someone smaller ;-)
> Ferrets, flat caps and black pudding! You have forgotten clogs, Tetley
You're no better yourself - forgot the most infamous of them all:
*Yorkshire* Pudding ("white pudding"...?) <shudder>
...or perhaps you left it out on purpose ;-)
Later,
From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
> Neil McGurk wrote:
And before you ask, we already had "Let's Knock Scandinavia List", from
3:23:30am to 3:24:17am GMT last Thursday--that was as long as we thought
would be safe.
From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
> You're no better yourself - forgot the most infamous of them all:
Nowt wrong wit' Yorkshire Pud, Lad, Them as eats most Pud gets most meat.
> Laserlight wrote:
> Yep :-) Last week 'twas the "Lets Knock America", but they're too big
Of course. Yorkshire is smaller than Scandinavia - it wouldn't make
sense to go to someone *bigger*, now would it? ;-)
> Alan Brain wrote:
> You're no better yourself - forgot the most infamous of them all:
That's wasteful. Those that eat the mose Yorkshire Pudding are unable to eat
very much meat afterwords, so if the ones that are still hungry don't get the
meat you have to throw it away...
> It's also one of the few things I can cook well, and goes
Given the almost complete lack of taste and flavour of an average
Yorkshire Pudding - considerably less flavour than most British boiled
vegetables ;-) - I'd expect it to go well with about anything <g>
Later,
> >Nowt wrong wit' Yorkshire Pud, Lad, Them as eats most Pud
When I was growing up in the UK in late 50s and early 60s, take it from me
there was *no* meat thrown away. Mainly because there was no meat.
Remember food rationing in the UK was a lot worse post-war than during
the war - a lot of UK production went to the mainland of Europe, where
people were actually and literally starving - and rationing ended only
in 1953. By the time I was born, things had improved a lot. But there were
still things like the School Orange Juice and Milk programmes, there to make
sure no child was malnourished. And they were needed.
> Given the almost complete lack of taste and flavour of an average
Agree that English Boiled vegetables are a culinary atrocity: but a good
Yorkshire Pud cooked in the dripping from the roast, now that's a meal in its
own right. Obviously you've never tasted a good Y.P. Should you ever come down
here to Oz, I'll serve you up some, along with other good Australian cuisine,
such as Yakitori Chicken, Thai Green Curry, 6 Alarm Chilli and Steak n Eggs.
Just not all on the same plate... And I do a mean Padh Thai, but I tend to be
both heavy on the Lime Juice and fish sauce.
To keep this almost vaguely on-topic, here's a quote from the first
draft of Cecil Rhodes' will: